I know the arguments for and against trading him and I can agree with both sides, I just can't quite figure out exactly what the "plan" is here. If they even said "we're looking to contend in 4 years" i'd say alright. I just can't figure it out quite yet. I see a disconnect between a good coach and a system that requires a certain kind of player, and owners who have ideas about what a hockey team should be, and a GM who has an idea of what a team should be, and they're all battling each other.
I'm right there with you. I can see both sides, and there's plenty of scenarios (trade or hold) that swing on both sides of the fence as well.
If attendance is already down that much, renewals are sluggish or not going as hoped, then from a financial perspective moving him could spell even more doom than not moving him. What I mean is, next season and the season after, could spell doom from a revenue perspective via attendance, renewals, etc. vs keeping his contract and the cap and paying him his 10 mill per year. There's other means on this roster that can be explored that this team can get better with keeping him. But that's taking into account turning it around immediately. They almost have to. I'm not convinced that the pockets and the bank accounts can afford it, to be patient I mean and be good 3-4 years down the road.
Spot on about the coach/owners/GM perspective by the way
I'm right there with you. I can see both sides, and there's plenty of scenarios (trade or hold) that swing on both sides of the fence as well.
If attendance is already down that much, renewals are sluggish or not going as hoped, then from a financial perspective moving him could spell even more doom than not moving him. What I mean is, next season and the season after, could spell doom from a revenue perspective via attendance, renewals, etc. vs keeping his contract and the cap and paying him his 10 mill per year. There's other means on this roster that can be explored that this team can get better with keeping him. But that's taking into account turning it around immediately. They almost have to. I'm not convinced that the pockets and the bank accounts can afford it, to be patient I mean and be good 3-4 years down the road.
Spot on about the coach/owners/GM perspective by the way
Oh, we all know here about whats left of the attendance fleeing. Now you'll find guys like Patrick here who pledges allegiance to the team before the player which is great, but fact is, we don't have a ton of those people here, not with the Rays thriving (and cheap tickets, games have been as cheap as 3 bucks in the past! but not so much anymore, still, 10 is cheap) and the Bucs being the Bucs, always popular, etc.... people are fickle. Gotta win to get the ***** in the seats.
If we trade Vinny, we're going for a full youth movement rebuild. There is no point in trading him for a defenseman who is already in his prime. When the team is finally ready to compete in 3-4 years, Markov will be too old.
Use your head people. THE ONLY WAY VINNY GETS TRADED IS IF WE GET A YOUNG #1 DEFENSEMAN IN RETURN.
Markov is 30 and if we are ready to compete in 3-4 years he will be 33 or 34. Not young but certainly still useful and if we are not competing can be a very valuable trade chip.
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"Embrace and savor the moment." -- WF
Markov is 30 and if we are ready to compete in 3-4 years he will be 33 or 34. Not young but certainly still useful and if we are not competing can be a very valuable trade chip.
Still makes no sense. You get rid of one star player in his prime playing on a young rebuilding team and you replace him with another.
I would rather trade him to Toronto for a package involving Schenn and 2 1st.
Markov is 30 and if we are ready to compete in 3-4 years he will be 33 or 34. Not young but certainly still useful and if we are not competing can be a very valuable trade chip.
Too bad Markov is a UFA in two years... Could and would likely walk after 2 years... meaning we traded the face of the franchise for 2 years of Markov where we most likely will not be competitive... sounds like a brilliant plan.. Not.
If Vinny is to be traded... it would have to be a package of prospects and youth...
S. Kostitsyn+McDonough+Chipchura+Subban+1st '09+1st '10 is what I would LIKE to see.. Likely? Probably not... but that is the type of package where I would let Vinny go and start building for the future, no Markov, no Plekanec, no Higgins. Youth, Picks, build for the future.
Too bad Markov is a UFA in two years... Could and would likely walk after 2 years... meaning we traded the face of the franchise for 2 years of Markov where we most likely will not be competitive... sounds like a brilliant plan.. Not.
If Vinny is to be traded... it would have to be a package of prospects and youth...
S. Kostitsyn+McDonough+Chipchura+Subban+1st '09+1st '10 is what I would LIKE to see.. Likely? Probably not... but that is the type of package where I would let Vinny go and start building for the future, no Markov, no Plekanec, no Higgins. Youth, Picks, build for the future.
Agreed for the most part. Although I would really like to see that one top young player coming back in return.
Too bad Markov is a UFA in two years... Could and would likely walk after 2 years... meaning we traded the face of the franchise for 2 years of Markov where we most likely will not be competitive... sounds like a brilliant plan.. Not.
If Vinny is to be traded... it would have to be a package of prospects and youth...
S. Kostitsyn+McDonough+Chipchura+Subban+1st '09+1st '10 is what I would LIKE to see.. Likely? Probably not... but that is the type of package where I would let Vinny go and start building for the future, no Markov, no Plekanec, no Higgins. Youth, Picks, build for the future.
Then make it a 3 way and flip Markov off to a 3rd team for picks and prospects.
WE NEED BOTH KOSTITSYN BROTHERS, WE CAN'T SPLIT THEM UP THEY ARE LIKE THE BURES or SEDINS
Then make it a 3 way and flip Markov off to a 3rd team for picks and prospects.
WE NEED BOTH KOSTITSYN BROTHERS, WE CAN'T SPLIT THEM UP THEY ARE LIKE THE BURES or SEDINS
OK ya sure... Let's trade Vinny for the #1 D that we so desperately desire, and then flip him to another team. This seems like an absolutely brilliant idea... brilliant. This would be a PR disaster, worse than the Boyle trade.
Yes you can split up the Kostitsyn brothers... Sergei has the higher ceiling, and I think is the more dynamic player. If we acquire a Kostitsyn player, it should be Sergei.
So we are desperate for a puck moving defenseman but he's too old! He is what we need and will make us not suck too much for the next couple years and if he re-signs great if not, move him.
He has 12 less points than Lecavalier, its not like we are getting another Matt Carle.
If we draft Hedman, he automatically goes into our top 6, pushing Lashoff to the first call up. So for all the talk of HAVING to get a dman, I just dont see where we are going to put said dman, especially if we get our guy in the draft. This is why its hard to really say what is going to happen to this team until we see where we finish in the standings.
So we are desperate for a puck moving defenseman but he's too old! He is what we need and will make us not suck too much for the next couple years and if he re-signs great if not, move him.
He has 12 less points than Lecavalier, its not like we are getting another Matt Carle.
Lecavalier has been the face of the franchise since he was drafted. He is signed to a contract that will allow him to stay with the franchise until he is retired, and he is heavily involved with the team and the community and you want to trade him for a guy that would likely walk in 2-years? Your opinion is, just move him? No. This team needs stability, and the best thing you can do is build through your prospects and picks. If Lecavalier is to be traded, you need a big return for the future, not for the pieces to compete now. To be frank, we just simply CAN'T compete right now.
Lecavalier has been the face of the franchise since he was drafted. He is signed to a contract that will allow him to stay with the franchise until he is retired, and he is heavily involved with the team and the community and you want to trade him for a guy that would likely walk in 2-years? Your opinion is, just move him? No. This team needs stability, and the best thing you can do is build through your prospects and picks. If Lecavalier is to be traded, you need a big return for the future, not for the pieces to compete now. To be frank, we just simply CAN'T compete right now.
thank you, people here want to trade him for nothing, it makes no sense. Trade Vinny? might as well move the team with him.
If we draft Hedman, he automatically goes into our top 6, pushing Lashoff to the first call up. So for all the talk of HAVING to get a dman, I just dont see where we are going to put said dman, especially if we get our guy in the draft. This is why its hard to really say what is going to happen to this team until we see where we finish in the standings.
I can't agree with you more. This is why I keep stressing we can't end up with the 3rd overall pick. If we end up with the 2nd overall pick, we get Hedman, we have our future #1, and there is no reason to try and trade long-term assets for a #1 D. We would have a guy in place that we can develop on our own. If we end up with the first overall choice it is a difficult situation. As I have stressed in the past week or so, you can't pass up on Tavares, I truly feel he is a possible generational talent. I think he has the ability to be on the level of Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby. If the Islanders were to approach us and make us an offer we couldn't refuse, than ya, you make that trade.
The real kicker is if we finish with the 3rd overall choice. We don't get Tavares, we don't get Hedman, and we are looking at Matt Duchene. Here is the problem with Duchene, he is a similar player to Stamkos. He is going to fill the same need, that we just don't need to fill. Having the 3rd overall leaves us in a position where we need to go out and acquire a #1 D somehow. I really don't know how we can do, but it has to get done. Markov is not the answer, we need a guy that we can have LONG TERM. We are not going to be good soon, we need a guy that is not going to be gone two years down the road.
The next big kicker is the fact that even if we finish 2nd last, we are not out of the water yet. We still have to go through the lottery draft. Anyone in the top 5 has a chance to move up to the #1 overall pick. If someone who is not the Tampa Bay Lightning or New York Islanders were to win the lottery, we would be in a bad situation. We would be staring at Matt Duchene and saying, "what do we do?" I think the best thing we could do is trade down to ~#10, get some extra picks or maybe a good prospect and hope to draft Schroeder or Ellis.
Our defense core and prospect pool looks good, but not great. Meszaros, Ranger, Lashoff, Smaby... they are all great complimentary guys, but there is no #1 D guy, there is no offensive specialist and there is no defensive specialist. When I look at the league, there are a few teams where I really like their D-Corps and for example I really like what Calgary has going on.
Phaneuf-Aucoin
Regehr-Sarich
Phaneuf, even though he has had a tough season, is a #1 D. The guy logs like 27 minutes per game and is great in both ends of the ice. Aucoin is a veteran guy who plays great in both ends of the ice. Regehr and Sarich are probably one of the best defensive pairings in the league, honestly. These guys play a lot of hard minutes and while +/- usually gets discredited, these guys have a great stat there.
Getting the 2nd overall is so important, you don't even know. If we don't get the 2nd overall, it becomes more likely Lecavalier is moved, I truly feel.
The real kicker is if we finish with the 3rd overall choice. We don't get Tavares, we don't get Hedman, and we are looking at Matt Duchene. Here is the problem with Duchene, he is a similar player to Stamkos. He is going to fill the same need, that we just don't need to fill. Having the 3rd overall leaves us in a position where we need to go out and acquire a #1 D somehow. I really don't know how we can do, but it has to get done. Markov is not the answer, we need a guy that we can have LONG TERM. We are not going to be good soon, we need a guy that is not going to be gone two years down the road.
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The next big kicker is the fact that even if we finish 2nd last, we are not out of the water yet. We still have to go through the lottery draft. Anyone in the top 5 has a chance to move up to the #1 overall pick. If someone who is not the Tampa Bay Lightning or New York Islanders were to win the lottery, we would be in a bad situation. We would be staring at Matt Duchene and saying, "what do we do?" I think the best thing we could do is trade down to ~#10, get some extra picks or maybe a good prospect and hope to draft Schroeder or Ellis.
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Our defense core and prospect pool looks good, but not great. Meszaros, Ranger, Lashoff, Smaby... they are all great complimentary guys, but there is no #1 D guy,
Right.
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there is no offensive specialist and there is no defensive specialist. When I look at the league, there are a few teams where I really like their D-Corps
WAIT FOR IT
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and for example I really like what Calgary
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD
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has going on.
Phaneuf-Aucoin
Regehr-Sarich
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Phaneuf, even though he has had a tough season, is a #1 D. The guy logs like 27 minutes per game and is great in both ends of the ice.
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Aucoin is a veteran guy who plays great in both ends of the ice. Regehr and Sarich are probably one of the best defensive pairings in the league, honestly. These guys play a lot of hard minutes and while +/- usually gets discredited, these guys have a great stat there.
Getting the 2nd overall is so important, you don't even know. If we don't get the 2nd overall, it becomes more likely Lecavalier is moved, I truly feel.
Just put a Calgary jersey on and get it over with.
I wouldn't call Markov and his 12 less points as a defenseman "nothing". He is even outscoring Jesus Boyle.
When we have a good chance of missing the playoffs the next two years and he walks, then yes, it is nothing. This team does not look good right now. There is a lot to be done here and two years of Markov in a rebuilding process is not worth dumping your franchise player and captain. I am no Vinny fanyboy but as I said. If we get #3 OVR, things could be looking grim for Vinny and his future here.
Just put a Calgary jersey on and get it over with.
How about addressing some points instead of littering your post with emoticons. Hahaha, I am far from a Calgary fan, but they have one of the best D-corps in my opinion. Facepalm to Phaneuf? Are you kidding me? Yeah he is having an off year, it happens, but I mean he still can be an impact player.
If you think trading Lecavalier for Markov is a good idea, by all means if it happens, and he walks after 2 years and we still don't make the playoffs I will laugh my ass off. Seriously, that is such a bad idea, you don't even know. Markov is a great defenseman, and he would obviously help the D squad, but we won't be contending in the next two years so it is just a terrible idea.
The #3 is such a bad position for us.. you don't even know. I am not addressing this again.
If we trade Vinny, we're going for a full youth movement rebuild. There is no point in trading him for a defenseman who is already in his prime. When the team is finally ready to compete in 3-4 years, Markov will be too old.
Use your head people. THE ONLY WAY VINNY GETS TRADED IS IF WE GET A YOUNG #1 DEFENSEMAN IN RETURN.
I was starting with Markov because Lawton said that any package that would bring Lecavalier to Montreal would have to start with Markov.
Until we know what pick we will have, we're all wasting time right now. If we don't get one of the top two picks, I think it's more likely that we trade him.
The only way a team like Tampa Bay can trade Vinny without getting hurt in the attendance, is if they get something in return that would create a buzz. How?? I suggest 2 brothers!!
What I would offer, if I was the Habs GM, would be something like this :
- A. Kostitsyn
- S. Kostitsyn
- A young puck moving defenseman (we have many in the farms : Subban, McDonagh, Weber or Emelin)
- K. Chipchura
- 1st round draft pick
FOR
- V. Lecavalier
I'd love to know what TB fans would think about it...
The only way a team like Tampa Bay can trade Vinny without getting hurt in the attendance, is if they get something in return that would create a buzz. How?? I suggest 2 brothers!!
What I would offer, if I was the Habs GM, would be something like this :
- A. Kostitsyn
- S. Kostitsyn
- A young puck moving defenseman (we have many in the farms : Subban, McDonagh, Weber or Emelin)
- K. Chipchura
- 1st round draft pick
FOR
- V. Lecavalier
I'd love to know what TB fans would think about it...
Take it in a hearbeat. You guys cannot afford to give up that much though...
