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Old
03-25-2009, 03:37 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
That's my question, how the hell could they know he couldn't handle the NHL while watching in the AHL, since he was leading the league in scoring for rookies. Granted once he was up and it was clear he was not ready for the league, imo he should have been sent down. But perhaps it had to do with Carbo liking his defensive play, which is solid and Lehoux's is not imo. Then again who knows what else was behind the decision, maybe the Habs wanted to get some kind of look at him to see how he would do since they appear to be high on his future in the NHL.

As for promoting him, it was due to the injury to Chipchura, so they had to call up a center, so it goes to show what the organization thinks of Lehoux.
- Maxwell has had a fine rookie season, but before being promoted to an NHL team that hopes to contend, I believe a prospect should either be on the top checking unit that shuts down the opposition's best, or should hit a point per game. Of course, I would also expect the Habs' scouting team and AHL coaches to report to Gainey whether a prospect is NHL ready or not as a big part of their jobs.

- That's exactly what I think the Habs were doing (second bolded sentence). It's just the wrong season to do it. On one hand, they traded futures for Tanguay, Lang and Schneider (all great trades, IMO). On the other hand, they gave NHL games to 7 forwards drafted in 2004 or later, who were all still eligible to play in the AHL. IMO, this is operating at cross purposes.

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03-25-2009, 03:42 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
- Maxwell has had a fine rookie season, but before being promoted to an NHL team that hopes to contend, I believe a prospect should either be on the top checking unit that shuts down the opposition's best, or should hit a point per game. Of course, I would also expect the Habs' scouting team and AHL coaches to report to Gainey whether a prospect is NHL ready or not as a big part of their jobs.

- That's exactly what I think the Habs were doing (second bolded sentence). It's just the wrong season to do it. On one hand, they traded futures for Tanguay, Lang and Schneider (all great trades, IMO). On the other hand, they gave NHL games to 7 forwards drafted in 2004 or later, who were all still eligible to play in the AHL. IMO, this is operating at cross purposes.
Maxwell was never promoted, he was called up due to injuries, so the Habs had to call someone up. Perhaps we have a misunderstanding in language, as I don't consider an injury replacement as a promotion, just a fill in until the injured player is back.

Now next year, if Maxwell were to make the team, then I would say he got promoted.

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03-25-2009, 04:03 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
- Maxwell has had a fine rookie season, but before being promoted to an NHL team that hopes to contend, I believe a prospect should either be on the top checking unit that shuts down the opposition's best, or should hit a point per game. Of course, I would also expect the Habs' scouting team and AHL coaches to report to Gainey whether a prospect is NHL ready or not as a big part of their jobs.

- That's exactly what I think the Habs were doing (second bolded sentence). It's just the wrong season to do it. On one hand, they traded futures for Tanguay, Lang and Schneider (all great trades, IMO). On the other hand, they gave NHL games to 7 forwards drafted in 2004 or later, who were all still eligible to play in the AHL. IMO, this is operating at cross purposes.
Do you even remember how many injuries the Habs had at times this year? They were calling up 3, 4, 5 players from the AHL not necessarily because they were 100% NHL battle-ready, but because they needed people to send on the ice!

I love how some people in this thread actually think they have better judgment & experience than the Habs management staff to make these decisions. Unbelievable!

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03-25-2009, 04:08 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
Brunet corrected his mistakes in another post

I may not have Timmins' understanding, but I'm certainly not the only one questioning drafting players from high schools or prep schools. Highly competent scouts in other sports stay away from high schools and prep schools as much as possible.
I strongly disagree. LeBron and Kobe both came from high school directly. Barasso came right from high school.

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03-25-2009, 04:12 PM
  #80
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I can imagine Danielle and Michelle as roommates on the road. All jokes aside the Habs were sleeping on Briere, Ribs and St Louis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
like I said, I don't want a first round pick from the Q but you did the work yourself with Perron, Giroux and so on. But get one once in a while when they're available. Then get some guys off waivers like Brière and Pominville and keep the good ones like Ribeiro and Beachemain and you have your core of french guys. I'm not asknig for 25 of them, only a few and important players not spot fillers like Dandenault.

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03-25-2009, 04:14 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
People criticizing Timmins and our recent draft picks reassures me that we definitely live in the dumbest city with an NHL team bar none.
People who adore Timmins makes me feel the same.

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03-25-2009, 04:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, nobody is saying that Lehoux should then be on top of the prospect chart 'cause he played 1 game better than the other. It's just a question of not giving him his chance to see what he could do. And honestly, personnally, I'm not even making this a language issue 'cause I feel the same for Glumac.

But clearly at one point, when Maxwell came back, did anybody thought that he was playing good. Not only he wasn't playing good but he was a liability out there way more than guys like Pacioretty, Stewart and D'Agostini who are either not here anymore or not playing. And that was during the time where we had tons of injuries. Maxwell could have been sent down earlier, and you could have called up Lehoux for at least 2 games. Just that, just to see what he could do to help you out while we had 75 players on the injury list. That's all.
I don't think they were really looking for help with that recall, though? I mean really, what were *any* of Glumac or Lehoux or Maxwell going to do in minor roles for a few games? Very likely nothing. So if your only expectation is nothing, then why not give your real prospect a little taste of the league, let him get some exposure to the calibre of play and some idea of how hard he has to work to get himself a permanent spot.

Past that, I'm not aware of Glumac or Lehoux's minor league salaries, but conceivably there would have been waiver risks there that Maxwell sidesteps. I don't know if the Habs were desperately injured enough at the time to truly get an emergency recall or not. Sometimes they had guys sitting around who may or may not have been injured, but weren't technically on IR, so they might not have qualified for emergency moves.

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03-25-2009, 04:25 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Viau View Post
People who adore Timmins makes me feel the same.
Would you rather have the scouting we had from 1994-2003?? Did you like those players better like Chouinard and Matt Higgins??

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03-25-2009, 04:27 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
...
While the parallel isn't all that great, getting some Q players here and there when the BPA is not that appealing might be a good idea. When the players you're drafting (in the more extreme cases) are a gamble (and I know they all are), you can go for a guy from the Q.

Not saying it's a wise idea, but it'd be pretty cool, not only because most of those guys grow up watching the Habs, but also because it allows the fans to follow the drafted players' development. You also have easier access to games since they're in your own backyard.
We've had this thread before a few times, though, and just statistically it is already proven that the Habs pick (and pick up/sign as FAs) far more than their fair share of Quebec players relative to the rest of the league. It is proven that the Habs *do* make an attempt to go out of their way and add local players.

So the question is only one of degree: how much farther out of their way should they go?

Presumably the scouts/managers/etc are all smart and reasonably unbiased hockey people who only want to win. Therefore, they are probably already bending things as far as they can in terms of applying the "all else being equal pick from your backyard" philosophy. If they went further, they would be consciously hindering their team's chances of winning. If they weren't doing it at all, it wouldn't show up statistically like it does. So probably they are setting the best balance they can. They are aware of and openly acknowledge their desire for local players. While at the same time not compromising on their desire to get the best players and best team possible.

In that situation, obviously you will be able to nitpick some specific examples in hindsight. But in terms of the overall guiding philosophy, I do not see how any Habs fan could criticize it.

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03-25-2009, 04:30 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viau View Post
People who adore Timmins makes me feel the same.
I dont hate timmins but im not one of his fanboy !

But at least he draft players that can reach the NHL he just lack the ability to draft impact players...

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03-25-2009, 04:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
In that situation, obviously you will be able to nitpick some specific examples in hindsight. But in terms of the overall guiding philosophy, I do not see how any Habs fan could criticize it.
I know they try as hard as they can.

I don't use hindsight regarding drafts.

I'm not a bandwagon type that wants more Q players no matter what.

I was merely thinking out loud. I just really like the idea of going after Q players aggressively (since it is our backyard league). I'm not pro-Quebecer or anything. I just like the mentality.

I don't really see it as a great guiding philosophy...but if they really like some Q players (like for Deschamps last year), I'm guessing they could really go harder after them. Not sure it'd make the team all the better either for that matter.

It's just a nice thought.

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03-25-2009, 05:10 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Would you rather have the scouting we had from 1994-2003?? Did you like those players better like Chouinard and Matt Higgins??
I did not said that. On the other hand, I can have my opinion about Timmins and I'm not a fan of him and his choices. That's it.

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03-25-2009, 05:22 PM
  #88
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Would you rather have the scouting we had from 1994-2003?? Did you like those players better like Chouinard and Matt Higgins??
He's made some good picks, but the players he has passed over makes you wonder just what the **** he was thinking. He has missed franchise players, and it makes a person question his abilities.

People come back with "OMG he picked Price", which is fine but how on earth did he let some of the gems in previous years go? Even Houle made some good picks, so its all relevant.

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03-25-2009, 05:23 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Viau View Post
I did not said that. On the other hand, I can have my opinion about Timmins and I'm not a fan of him and his choices. That's it.
Which head scout would you replace him with? What more would you want?

As I stated earlier, from 2003 to 2005, he produced 4 NHL players by draft. Look around the league, there are very few teams who manage to produce that in a single draft, let alone three in a row.

Some people mention the lack of impact players. I don't buy that either. First of all, what is an impact player? Which of these guys qualify as one: Price, Halak, A. Kostitsyn, Streit? If none, then how many are the in a league, and what are the probabilities to get one in a three year span?

Honnestly, I don't think Trevor Timmins is the best head scout in the league. But to want him out is in my opinion, and until one can prove me wrong, simply looking for a problem where there is none.

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03-25-2009, 05:28 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
He's made some good picks, but the players he has passed over makes you wonder just what the **** he was thinking. He has missed franchise players, and it makes a person question his abilities.

People come back with "OMG he picked Price", which is fine but how on earth did he let some of the gems in previous years go? Even Houle made some good picks, so its all relevant.
This attitude infuriates me. This is what drafting is all about!

If you don't understand that teams are going to miss on some franchise players, you don't understand the process. It's easy to come back five years down the road and pinpoint the guy who was picked five spots later who has become a better player. You could go over every team and find busts they picked by passing over a star.

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03-25-2009, 05:28 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
He's made some good picks, but the players he has passed over makes you wonder just what the **** he was thinking. He has missed franchise players, and it makes a person question his abilities.

People come back with "OMG he picked Price", which is fine but how on earth did he let some of the gems in previous years go? Even Houle made some good picks, so its all relevant.
So did all the other teams miss out on those players, Carolina took Andrew Ladd 4th overall in the 2004 draft over Blake Wheeler are they just as stupid as the habs? Unless you consistently pick top 10 every year getting Franchise players out of the draft is extremely rare, there are barly 30 franchise players in the league right now and expect that it's easy to find one in a draft, I still don't get the *****ing. If you wanna ***** about drafting become an Islanders, Thrashers, Tampa and St,Louis fan, but don;t ***** about Timmins who filled up a cupboard that was bone dry for like 10 years.

Stop fuking complaing over everything, Karma is getting back at us this for all the *****ing for no ****ing reason. No french player this, he doesn't speak french oh why didn't we draft zetterberg in the 7th round, oh why didn't Lehoux get to be captain....Just shut up!

Timmins is not the greatest but he's done nothing wrong, he drafted us solid prospects and gave us depth something we didn't have 4 years ago.

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03-25-2009, 05:43 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Duff88 View Post
Which head scout would you replace him with? What more would you want?

As I stated earlier, from 2003 to 2005, he produced 4 NHL players by draft. Look around the league, there are very few teams who manage to produce that in a single draft, let alone three in a row.

Some people mention the lack of impact players. I don't buy that either. First of all, what is an impact player? Which of these guys qualify as one: Price, Halak, A. Kostitsyn, Streit? If none, then how many are the in a league, and what are the probabilities to get one in a three year span?
You are right. From this list, you don't have any, although Price has the greatest potential to be one of them.

Impact players in the league right now, drafted in 2003 or after:

Parise, Carter, M. Richards, Getzlaf, Perry, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, P. Kane, J. Toews, M. Green, Backstrom, E. Stall, Phaneuf, Vanek, S. Weber.

What hurts the most is definitely the 2003 Draft: AK46 over Parise, Carter, Richards, Getzlaf and Perry...

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03-25-2009, 06:08 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by slimkay View Post
You are right. From this list, you don't have any, although Price has the greatest potential to be one of them.

Impact players in the league right now, drafted in 2003 or after:

Parise, Carter, M. Richards, Getzlaf, Perry, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, P. Kane, J. Toews, M. Green, Backstrom, E. Stall, Phaneuf, Vanek, S. Weber.

What hurts the most is definitely the 2003 Draft: AK46 over Parise, Carter, Richards, Getzlaf and Perry...
Please dont remind me of that 2003 draft uhh.. For how many years have we been looking for that big talented righthanded center and we passed on both
I truly feel timmins has been average at best. I remember when we drafted Chipchura and Pierre McGuire said we just drafted a 3rd liner, Im still wondering to this day why the hell we were drafting 3rd liners with our 1st round pick.

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03-25-2009, 06:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
1 1st round pick from quebec in 25 years, that's the stat that bothers me the most
I know one thing, it's always easier to judge after the fact. I still like Patches for our pick and could become something special. Fisher is one that I was disappointed and rightfully so. This guy could have been around for a while. The other one pick I dislike is Mcdonaugh. Sure looks like an other long term project. Having said all of that, I believe they were trying to tap into a different venture. I guess we will see.

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03-25-2009, 07:09 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
I know one thing, it's always easier to judge after the fact. I still like Patches for our pick and could become something special. Fisher is one that I was disappointed and rightfully so. This guy could have been around for a while. The other one pick I dislike is Mcdonaugh. Sure looks like an other long term project. Having said all of that, I believe they were trying to tap into a different venture. I guess we will see.


The guy was shutting down the opposing team's best lines at the WJC.

He was nominated for the Hobey Baker (NCAA MVP).

What are you talking about? He could turn pro next year.

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03-25-2009, 07:44 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by slimkay View Post
You are right. From this list, you don't have any, although Price has the greatest potential to be one of them.

Impact players in the league right now, drafted in 2003 or after:

Parise, Carter, M. Richards, Getzlaf, Perry, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, P. Kane, J. Toews, M. Green, Backstrom, E. Stall, Phaneuf, Vanek, S. Weber.

What hurts the most is definitely the 2003 Draft: AK46 over Parise, Carter, Richards, Getzlaf and Perry...
I still think Kopitar should be with Montreal instead of Price. Maybe time will tell. And I don't say that because of Price's horrible year ; I stand with my point since I heard Carey Price in 2005.

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03-25-2009, 07:53 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
I know one thing, it's always easier to judge after the fact. I still like Patches for our pick and could become something special. Fisher is one that I was disappointed and rightfully so. This guy could have been around for a while. The other one pick I dislike is Mcdonaugh. Sure looks like an other long term project. Having said all of that, I believe they were trying to tap into a different venture. I guess we will see.
LMAO, another HF poster, posting anything that comes to mind. A little hockey knowledge goes along way here.

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03-25-2009, 09:21 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Viau View Post
I still think Kopitar should be with Montreal instead of Price. Maybe time will tell. And I don't say that because of Price's horrible year ; I stand with my point since I heard Carey Price in 2005.
Yeah, and I forgot Kopitar. Although the Habs would have benefited more from Bobby Ryan's skills (especially since he's a righty)

I don't think that Price's selection was bad, but I think that we need time to see how we truly fare regarding this one.

Whenever I read this, I laugh.

Montreal Canadiens Bobby Ryan, RW
The Habs are another team who try to move up for Johnson [JMFJ], but if they can get their hands on Ryan, they'll be glowing. Ryan is the physical, offensive forward the Canadiens have been dreaming about for ages and they may get their chance with the 5th overall pick. They haven't picked this high since 1984.

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03-25-2009, 10:57 PM
  #99
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Please dont remind me of that 2003 draft uhh.. For how many years have we been looking for that big talented righthanded center and we passed on both
Do you remember the wingers we had in 2003? It was even worse than our centre situation.

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03-25-2009, 10:58 PM
  #100
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- double post. Sorry.

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