For those of you who don't know, WHL hockey might be good but the Portland Winter Hawks surely are not. They're kind of like the Atlanta/NYI of the Dub, though, with ownership issues messing with the quality of the team they're able to ice. Not a good environment for a prospect's development, IMO. I for one hope Wiercioch stays at least for his sophomore year - then the Sens can think hard about making a pitch for him to turn pro.
Oh please. The NCAA is great for his development. He was already playing huge minutes as an 18 year old freshman, he'll be playing an even greater role next year. He needs to refine his game defensively and get stronger, and they can help him do both of those things.
He doesn't need to go from playing against 21-22 year old men to playing against 16-17 boys.
Agreed. The guy scores at a near PPG pace in the NCAA as a freshman and is among the fastest improving players in his age group - there's a legitimate chance he comes to camp and clearly outplays guys like Kudelka, D. Smith, Fata, etc.
Dude, you can slice it any way you want. The NCAA can only take a player so far in his development and he seems to have surpassed the talent level there. He can refine his game defensively, get stronger and be a smarter player by playing in the AHL. I don't know why I said WHL that would be absolutely useless. Let him have a year in Bingo playing against other hungry guys trying to make the jump, a little more competitive hockey and than by 2010/2011 he should be ready for some minutes as our 6th guy or bouncing around both the big club and minors much like Lee is right now. If he was drafted in 08 than a 3 year project makes perfect sense...this isin't a guy who is going to take 5 years to develop, he's got the tools and the hockey sense to learn quickly.
This quote from the Future Watch sums it up best:
"He's not going to be a guy that rushes the puck from end-to-end, Tim Murray said. He moves the puck very well, follows the play and runs the powerplay"
Based on that description, fine tuning in the AHL is what he needs. I think he can be a very similar player to Kris Letang.
Why are people so eager to rush the guy? Having seen him several times this year, he still has a pretty raw defensive game, and could use another year at DU to work on it. He's still a baby, at 18 years old. As mentioned earlier, the amount of teenagers that do well in the AHL is pretty small. You don't need to rush him to get him to the AHL right away when he's developing just fine at College.
To use a quote like that to describe why he needs to go to the AHL makes no sense at all. All he's doing is describing the type of player he is. How does that prove the AHL is what he needs? You compare him to Letang, yet Letang barely played in the AHL, and played in the Q for two years after being drafted.
I don't doubt that he's better than a lot of our AHL defenseman, but if you toss him into the AHL and he struggles like a lot of teenagers do, what good have you done?
Why are people so eager to rush the guy? Having seen him several times this year, he still has a pretty raw defensive game, and could use another year at DU to work on it. He's still a baby, at 18 years old. As mentioned earlier, the amount of teenagers that do well in the AHL is pretty small. You don't need to rush him to get him to the AHL right away when he's developing just fine at College.
To use a quote like that to describe why he needs to go to the AHL makes no sense at all. All he's doing is describing the type of player he is. How does that prove the AHL is what he needs? You compare him to Letang, yet Letang barely played in the AHL, and played in the Q for two years after being drafted.
I don't doubt that he's better than a lot of our AHL defenseman, but if you toss him into the AHL and he struggles like a lot of teenagers do, what good have you done?
Well yes you make a good point. So maybe he can the type of player who is able to make the jump straight from college to the NHL, I mean yes he is only 18 but like I said I don't see him as being more than a 3 year project and depending on what our defensive unit looks like in two years I think he can make a real strong push to get some minutes in 2010/2011. Maybe he can fine tune his game in the NCAA again and than whatever other grooming he needs could be done through 12-14 minutes a game in the NHL.
And like I said, there may not even be any reason to push him into the lineup that soon either, we could be looking at 2011/2012 before the kid really starts to make an impact on the team.
You are right that for next season the most logical thing to do is to have him keep logging heavy minutes again 21 year old guys and keep trying to play his game. As for the following year, I see another Lee V 2.0 as he won't be good enough to crack the lineup full-time but would probably be too good for the AHL full-time also by that point.
His development should be pretty interesting to follow.
The best simulation for an NHL season is an AHL season. How the hell does the number of fans in the stands or headlines in the newspaper make a difference when it comes to player development?
This is just plain stupid. Hockey players don't lose their drive. For the majority of players in the CHL the NHL was never an option to begin with. When you play in the NCAA, you play against men instead of boys. The competition is tougher. How many undrafted players in the CHL do you see ready to step into the NHL?
Totally different situation. O'Brien was getting very little ice time on a deep college team. His college team was also thinking of moving him to defence. If he was getting the ice time that Wiercioch got at Denver this season, he never would have jumped.
1) You're repeating my first point. AHL is the best place to prepare. Read 2 posts above. I should introduce a new word to your vocabulary, it's callled "pressure". Pressure is huge on player development in case you hadn't noticed. There's a lot more pressure when you play in a small canadian town when the media is after you all the time. Getting used to it can only help, don't you agree? Or you think its better to have little pressure and then get thrown into nhl pressure right away. It can affect players.
2)This is plain stupid? Perhaps you're plain stupid? You can find numerous players who were in the AHL at age 20-21ish and then are still in the AHL doing worse 5 years later. Why? Because they lose their drive. This is a reality and you're just being plain ignorant if you don't realize it.
Why would you compare just undrafted players? Obviously the CHL players who are undrafted will probably go to NCAA. You can't just ignore the drafted players that step into the nhl right away. The bergerons, the crosbys, the folignos etc.
As for the age. I mentioned this also, yet you seem to have problem reading points in my posts. CHL players are 16-20. College players are usually there for what? 4 years? 18-22. There are exceptions with people who stay to age 25ish. The majority don't. So you're comparing an average age difference of 2-3 years. It's not like its drastically different. There are plenty of big 6'3,220 boys in the CHL.
Dude, you can slice it any way you want. The NCAA can only take a player so far in his development and he seems to have surpassed the talent level there. He can refine his game defensively, get stronger and be a smarter player by playing in the AHL. I don't know why I said WHL that would be absolutely useless. Let him have a year in Bingo playing against other hungry guys trying to make the jump, a little more competitive hockey and than by 2010/2011 he should be ready for some minutes as our 6th guy or bouncing around both the big club and minors much like Lee is right now. If he was drafted in 08 than a 3 year project makes perfect sense...this isin't a guy who is going to take 5 years to develop, he's got the tools and the hockey sense to learn quickly.
This quote from the Future Watch sums it up best:
"He's not going to be a guy that rushes the puck from end-to-end, Tim Murray said. He moves the puck very well, follows the play and runs the powerplay"
Based on that description, fine tuning in the AHL is what he needs. I think he can be a very similar player to Kris Letang.
Based on the description that I provided it's actually a pretty spot on comparison so I got no clue what you are talking about. Have you ever actually really watched Letang? Other than being rush into the lineup cause of injuries than tell me exactly why that is an awful comparison.
Based on the description that I provided it's actually a pretty spot on comparison so I got no clue what you are talking about. Have you ever actually really watched Letang? Other than being rush into the lineup cause of injuries than tell me exactly why that is an awful comparison.
Have you ever watched Wiercioch to make a comparison like that? Wiercioch 6'4, 6'5, while Letang is just 6'. Letang's skating is one of his greatest attributes, which is not the case for Wiercioch.
Based on the description that I provided it's actually a pretty spot on comparison so I got no clue what you are talking about. Have you ever actually really watched Letang? Other than being rush into the lineup cause of injuries than tell me exactly why that is an awful comparison.
I've watched a lot of Letang, both from his time in the Q when I lived in Nova Scotia, and a lot during his time in Pittsburgh. He has been one of my favourite non-Senators prospects since his strong performance at the U18s about 4 years ago.
Reasons it doesn't fit:
1) Letang is a 5'11" to 6'0" player with a study build. Wiercioch is the opposite, tall and lanky. Their physical development to date and in terms of what they need going forward could not be more different.
2) Letang is a great skater and someone who has the ability to join the rush, if not lead it on occasion. He was that way in junior and will be moreso in the NHL as he gains confidence. Your quote contradicts that and Wiercioch is not a mobile guy like Letang. Not based on watching him at the development camp or from all information and reports on him since.
3) Letang had two dominant junior seasons, including captaining Team Canada to Gold at the WJC, and then stepped into the NHL almost right away. That has little relevance to talking about how the AHL would benefit Wiercioch next year unless we believe he only needs 10 games next fall before moving to the NHL for good.
I honestly don't see any reason for that comparison other than both are offensive blueliners drafted outside of the first round. TMV would be in a better position to make a comparison, but names that come to mind include Paul Mara, Cam Barker, Tom Gilbert and even Kuba, although I would use none with the confidence that you seem to be defending your Letang one with.
The kid will NOT make even the slightest push to make the team next year. He doesn't fit in anywhere in the lineup, hopefully we got Karlsson coming over and Lee would be FULL time and than everyone is expecting to sign a d-man so you got Volch/Phillips/Kuba/Campoli/Lee/Picard/Karlsson. So that's 7 guys and I'm pretty sure even a guy like Bell would be ahead of Wiercioch on the depth chart.
He's not ready, plain and simple. But another year in the NCAA doesn't do him any good either. Playing in the WHL on the other hand is something that can further his development.
As for the 2010/2011 season, he should be right there with our other kids.
Just curious, have you ever even seen him play?
And how does another year in the NCAA do him no good?
Word is he is a poor mans Ryan Whitney. Not as much offense but a little more sound in his end. He will continue to develop at DU due to his age being lower than most sophomores. He will probably get a better hockey education in the CHL, but that depends on which team he would end up with.
Also coming out and playing CHL in the past forced the NHL team to sign the player within 2years of being drafted. Not sure if that loophole was closed in the last CBA. The Mike Van Ryn rule. Mike Comrie pulled that stunt as well.
i'd like to see him in Denver for another year. He's not going to make the sens this year, and I dont see how the AHL experience will be that much more valuable to him than College next year. Why waste a year on his ELC (and a year of waiver/rfa eligibility) for no reason?
Also coming out and playing CHL in the past forced the NHL team to sign the player within 2years of being drafted. Not sure if that loophole was closed in the last CBA. The Mike Van Ryn rule. Mike Comrie pulled that stunt as well.
this would work like the Jim Obrien situation, where, after signing with the sens, wiercioch would be inelegible to play NCAA hockey. The sens would then have to decide whether he was ready for the AHL or should play in junior (portland owns his WHL rights after trading for them from Medicine Hat). I doubt the sens would even consider CHL hockey for wiercioch, however, because why would a defenceman dominating college hockey want to go and play against high school kids again?
Not sure he would be eligible for the AHL as he is not European, nor has he played 4 years of junior. As an 18 year old, there probably isn't much of a difference for him if he wants to stay at Denver or to go junior.
The Sens know what his best option is. It might be to stay in college or it might be to leave and go play junior. The Isles were not happy with the way Kyle Okposo was developing at Minn. So far that has turned out well. But each player is different.
i see alot of posts here on his physical/personal development and my two thoughts is that not every player is the same and some will develop better in the NCAA where they have more responsibility and play against some older boys (and YES at those ages 2-3 years make a huge difference...i work with ALOT of hockey players in the midget and Jr. A age group as a physiotherapist and the body grows alot and the muscle factors, not just height, comes into play; physical maturity), some need to learn the ropes of a longer schedule and responsibility (CHL) and some need that next step (AHL). Each player is different.
However, the other thing that i look at is that if we get him to turn pro then he gets a year of eligibilty towards free agency off the books. At this time we have plenty of NHL caliber defenceman (how many are 1-2 level NHL defenceman, but i can say right now that is not Wiercioch) and do not need to rush him at all, especially with Karlsson on his way in the next couple years also. So an extra year of him not using eligibility years i think is a great thing for the kid. He'll get top line minutes in the NCAA playing against some physically mature players. I think it might be best for him, but who truly knows.
IMO the NCAA is notorious for slow but good development from good players. Anyone out of college who was good is usually good in the NHL right away. I mean, Winchester was just a college player a short time ago and he wasn't even destroying the league but he was an NHLer. That's the level of college hockey. It seems to me that it instills maturity in the players and keeps them developing a year or two longer than Major Junior. I think it's good if Wiercioch stays in college until he is ready to make the jump.
Winchester is an 83, whereas Wiercioch is a 90. Comparing one to the other is not a fair comparison. I am not against the college route but it isn't the best way to develop top end talent.
If the NCAA is so strong at developing players, name the top 10 players from the college ranks in the last 10 years versus the top 10 CHL players. Or how about the roster of Team Canada in 2006.
Winchester is an 83, whereas Wiercioch is a 90. Comparing one to the other is not a fair comparison. I am not against the college route but it isn't the best way to develop top end talent.
If the NCAA is so strong at developing players, name the top 10 players from the college ranks in the last 10 years versus the top 10 CHL players. Or how about the roster of Team Canada in 2006.
I never said it gave the best players but the players from there always seem to be good and meet some potential. Less booms and less busts. Maybe the college aspect draws smarter people to play there? I dunno what it is about the NCAA culture but Wiercioch will make the NHL if he goes for all 4 years and could do it in less.
Oh please. The NCAA is great for his development. He was already playing huge minutes as an 18 year old freshman, he'll be playing an even greater role next year. He needs to refine his game defensively and get stronger, and they can help him do both of those things.
He doesn't need to go from playing against 21-22 year old men to playing against 16-17 boys.
Bingo! People overrated the CHL and vastly underrated the quality of talent in the NCAA.
You see the same thing with Elliott, Karlsson, etc. Ridiculous comments like this:
Quote:
Going back to Denver isn't going to give him a chance to do it again. How much better a season can he have there? Be sending him to the AHL you challenge him to improve.
A player can in fact play more than a year or two in a development league. I believe that's actually the purpose of development leagues. He can challenge himself to win the Hobey Baker next year (or be in the top 10 nominations). He can challenge himself to help Denver win the Frozen Four. He can do all kinds of things to challenge himself. You don't need to move up to the AHL to do that.
Personally I don't care if he spends 4 years in college, as long as there is some kind of clear progression (and we sign him). It only becomes a concern once a player starts to stagnant or if they have issues with the coaching staff (usually these two concerns are related).
I never said it gave the best players but the players from there always seem to be good and meet some potential. Less booms and less busts. Maybe the college aspect draws smarter people to play there? I dunno what it is about the NCAA culture but Wiercioch will make the NHL if he goes for all 4 years and could do it in less.
Ridiculous statement. They're completely different streams and different types of players choose to go different routes based on what is best for them. The college ranks produce some fantastic talent. It's also a good way to keep a kid buried for a couple years while he grows into his body. Paul Stastny is a perfect example of this. He would not have had nearly as good a rookie season if he didn't have those extra years of college to develop, and instead came into the league at 18 or 19.
That's actually a big reason why college players are normally Calder candidates (this year Wheeler is the closest I believe... but that's still up there in terms of the skaters).
You see the same thing with Elliott, Karlsson, etc. Ridiculous comments like this:
A player can in fact play more than a year or two in a development league. I believe that's actually the purpose of development leagues. He can challenge himself to win the Hobey Baker next year (or be in the top 10 nominations). He can challenge himself to help Denver win the Frozen Four. He can do all kinds of things to challenge himself. You don't need to move up to the AHL to do that.
The best way to improve a player is to have them play at the highest level they are capable of. People who know how to develop players understand this. That's why Tavares fought the OHL rules so that he could join the league early. The better the competition you go against, the more you improve. The AHL is better then NCAA because the competition is better and you play a lot more games.
If he is capable of playing in the AHL, and the Senators must think he is if they are trying to turn him pro, then he will be a much better player a year from now if he is in the AHL then if he is in the NCAA.
