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ATD10/MLD10/AAA10/Double-A The Undrafted Players Thread (arguably Top-1000 All Time)

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04-05-2009, 06:39 AM
  #51
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The Third Line

LW Val Fonteyne




- Val Fonteyne is commonly known as the cleanest player in NHL history. He amassed only 26 PMs in 820 games. His 229 points are decent, but nothing special. He excelled defensively, however. “Players” says he was used primarily in a defensive role and for penalty killing. LOH.net says ” solid two-way player whose unselfish approach to the game earned him the respect of his teammates…hard-working… consistent performer…” Joe Pelletier describes him as ” speedy left winger who specialized in defensive play and especially penalty killing. On many nights he was unnoticeable to the fans, but his teammates and opponents sure appreciated his thankless play”. Fonteyne went to the finals in 1961, 1963, and 1966 with Detroit. He would make an excellent 3rd line winger.

C Rudy Migay



- A great defensive center who played 418 NHL games. He also was not without his talent, though. He was able to put in 151 points in the NHL, and was a top AHL scorer too. He didn’t get to play much in the playoffs, as he was with the Leafs in the lean 50’s. “Players” says he was mostly a penalty killer with Ron Stewart, and was a taut, small player who was tenacious and hardworking. According to LOH.net, ” What Rudy Migay lacked in size, he more than made up for in speed and natural puck handling skills” He was even good enough to get into the 1957 All-Star game. That season he had 35 points in 66 games.

RW Bill Hicke



- Hicke was a fast right winger who had a lot of skill, just not enough to make an impact on a scoring line with the powerful Habs of the 1960’s when he broke in. By the time he had played 51 NHL games, he was a two-time cup winner. LOH.net explains how he was lost in the numbers game in Montreal: ” Naturally there was little Hicke could do to fulfill such expectations. He simply took advantage of the limited ice time he could steal away. During his six and a half seasons with the club, he did manage to score a modestly respectable number of points each year.” He played in three All-Star games and, aided by expansion, played 729 games, scoring 402 points.


The fourth line

LW Harold “Baldy” Cotton




- If we consider all the players mentioned in this thread as draft picks, then Baldy Cotton is roughly the 1400th pick in the draft. That would make him the steal of the draft, it’s safe to say. I’m kinda embarrassed to have forgotten about this founding Maple Leaf for so long. How obscene has his overlooking been? In the beautifully done book “Maple Leaf Legends”, Cotton is one of 90 Leaf figures from the 20’s to 2004 profiled, but one of only three (along with Gary Leeman and Todd Gill) not yet drafted/mentioned. In Mike Leonetti’s “Maple Leafs Top 100”, Cotton (#68) is one of five top-100 members not yet selected/mentioned, the others being Leeman (63), Bill Derlago (75), Gill (84), and Brian Glennie (93). Cotton scored 101 goals and 204 points in 503 games. This makes him the 30th-highest scoring player during his career, and all the rest of the top-43 on that list have been selected. He was once in the top-15 in goals, and also was 7th in assists in 1931, and was in the top-20 another time. He also had a very respectable 13 points in 43 playoff games during those low scoring playoffs of the 30s. He won one cup in two trips to the finals with the Leafs. Those are pretty good offensive credentials at this point. But his true value is in his overall play, his 4th line mentality. Here’s what it says about him in “Legends”: ”Smythe willingly paid the high figure because he was sure he was getting a gutsy player… he made a strong contribution as a persistent checker and solid penalty killer…although he was 5’10” and only 155 pounds, he was fearless and very willing to mix it up. He hurled his body around the ice and took plenty of spills as a result. On one occasion he got carried away and challenged referee Cooper Smeaton to a fight, but was talked out of it. Another time, when Cotton learned that a Leafs-Bruins playoff game was going to be stopped because no one could score, he blurted out, ‘Nobody is going to call this game!’ That was the spirit Smythe was looking for when he acquired the feisty Cotton…” He was a great locker room guy, too, according to “The Leafs: the First 50 Years” : His infectious sense of humour is still remembered by all who met him. I would not hesitate to make Cotton a 3rd or 4th liner in an MLD.


C/LW/RW Jiri Hrdina



- Hrdina didn’t get to the NHL full-time until he was 30, but he had already represented the Czechs in nine international tournaments (he would represent them in one more), winning a gold, three silvers, and a bronze. He scored 43 points in 60 games in these tournaments. He also finished 5th, 7th, 8th, and 10th in the Czech league in scoring during this time. When he got to the NHL, he managed to score 130 points in 250 games, quite respectable for a 30-year old coming over from Europe. In fact, you might be surprised to hear that Hrdina was 11th in scoring by players 31 and older during his time in the NHL. Mullen, Stastny, Makarov, Wilson, Taylor, Tonelli, Gartner, Smail, Trottier, and Federko topped him. But his true value is in his overall ability and versatility. He was a center in the NHL, a RW in Sparta, and a LW for the Czech Nationals. He had the talent to play a scoring role, but the defensive acumen and attitude to be merely a bit part in a winning machine, as he was in three Stanley Cup wins in 1989, 1991, and 1992. From LOH.net: ” Joining the NHL at the age of 30, Jiri Hrdina could hardly expect to become a star. The best he could do was to play in such a way as to please himself and his club…In Calgary and later in Pittsburgh, he was not among the key figures on the team. He was biding his time as an underrated defensive forward. But he did work successfully with some of the young Czech players who needed guidance. In the summer of 1990 the Penguins drafted a young man by the name of Jaromir Jagr in the first round. Jagr was 18 and felt quite lost in his new environment. Hrdina the experienced compatriot stuck by him to get him through the worst of it… In 1991 and 1992 when the Pittsburgh Penguins won the Stanley Cup title twice, the team was being pulled along by Mario Lemieux. But Jiri Hrdina was once again an integral part of the lineup. For a while it seemed that any NHL team who hired him was assured of a Stanley Cup victory.” From Kings Of the Ice: ”Everything that he achieved was from his own hard work.”

RW/LW Colin Patterson



- A fine defensive player who could also chip in on offense. I’m pretty sure he was a real-life linemate of Hrdina’s for a couple of seasons. Interestingly, he played one more game and scored one more point than his fantasy linemate on the left side, Baldy Cotton. (205 in 504) He was a Selke finalist in 1989, when he posted 38 points and a +44, which was 3rd in the league. He followed this up with a Cup win in the playoffs, finishing 7th on the Flames with 13 points and 3rd with a very impressive +10 rating. Two years earlier his defensive excellence was recognized again when he was 12th in Selke voting. Patterson made the playoffs every season and played a ton of playoff games for just a 9-year career – 85 in total – and he scored 29 points, helping his teams advance past the first round five times. Aside from his 1989 Cup win, he went to the Finals with the Flames in 1986. LOH.net says, ” he established himself as a defensive specialist…rarely strayed from his defensive role”. Any championship team needs a couple honest, conscientious players like Patterson.


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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04-05-2009, 07:09 AM
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The Goaltenders

G Ken Wregget



- You might be surprised to see Ken Wregget's name here considering his reputation is primarily as a backup goalie. But Wregget played 35 or more games eight times, and 25 or more fourteen times. He toiled for the leafs for Parts of six seasons, leadng the league in losses twice, yet was so valuable that the Flyers parted with two first round picks to acquire him. He won two cups with Pittsburgh as a backup to Barrasso - he only played 40 minutes in total those seasons. You may not be aware of this, but he was 5th in Norris voting in the 1995 season. But his calling card is his playoff performance. Wregget has the most career playoff minutes and playoff wins of all unselected goalies, and his career playoff sv% of .911 is 14 points higher than the league average in the years he played. That adds up to 21 goals he saved, that an average goalie wouldn't have. He was the MVP of two big Leafs playoff upsets in 1986 and 1987. Aside from 1988, it seemed everywhere Wregget went, he brought it in the playoffs.

G Sergei Mylnikov



- Didn't reach the heights that his understudy Belosheikin did (two time soviet all-star, MVP runner-up), but had a longer and more consistent career, and proved himself against top competition. Mylnikov was a one-time Soviet all-star in 1988, and was 3rd in Russian MVP voting in 1989. He played in 5 World Championships (3 Golds), The 1988 Olympics (Gold), and the 1987 Canada Cup for Russia (Runner-up). In those games, he went 27-2 with a 1.94 GAA. One of his two losses was the Canada Cup deciding match. He got bombed in the NHL when the terrible Nordiques gave him a 7-game tryout.

G Gilles Villemure



- Villemure was sure to spend his career in the minors until expansion came. After that, he played 34+ games four times, past the age of 30. Compiled a really pretty record of 100-64-29. Played in three all-star games - by being selected to play, not being on a cup winner. Shared the 1971 Vezina with his teammate Ed Giacomin. Was top-4 in GAA three seasons in a row. Would make a great backup in an all-time setting.

The Spares:

C Larry Popein




- Popein's numbers aren't that impressive considering he centered Bathgate and Prentice for a few seasons. However, he did hold his own and was the primary defensive conscience of the line. Both LOH.net and "Heroes" describe him as a "hustling, two-way centreman". "Players" says "he could score a bit and hit like thunder". For these reasons I think he makes a great spare - he can hold his own on a scoring line if need be, he can play defensive, and he can be physical - in other words, he can fill in on any line.

D Marek Zidlicky



- I wanted an offensive ringer on the blueline for my final spare, and I was torn between a guy who was 4th, 5th, and 7th among defensemen in points, and won two cups, but did this in the four most war-ravaged seasons and did little else outside of those years, and the tiny Zidlicky, who has been top-15 among defensemen three times, peaking at 4th. I ultimately chose Zidlicky, who was even decent enough to be 14th in Norris voting as a rookie. Zidlicky is a fantastic PP defenseman who is great with the puck and a slick passer. He is tiny, and can sometimes get pushed around, but always comes back for more. He has proven to be very resilient and is best described as a poor man's Brian Rafalski. Playoff success has eluded him as he has played on the Predators, but he has represented his country seven times, scoring 37 points in 49 games.


The Coach:

Jacques Martin



- A good coach who has had a long career but just couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Martin has a .551 win% over 1098 games, and a 38-47 playoff record. Martin won the 1999 Jack Adams award, was a 3rd-place finalist three separate times, and was 5th in voting another time. At this point he is as good a coach as you will find.


This completes my third All-Undrafted Roster. Players with a * have already been mentioned in this thread:

Parker MacDonald - Guy Charron - Jiri Lala
Alex Kaleta - Robert Lang - Jonathan Cheechoo
Val Fonteyne - Rudy Migay - Bill Hicke
Baldy Cotton - Jiri Hrdina - Colin Patterson

Randy Manery - Jean Potvin
Dmitri Mironov* - Boris Mironov*
Robert Picard* - John McKinnon

Spares:
C Larry Popein*
D Marek Zidlicky

Coach:
Jacques Martin


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-05-2009 at 08:46 AM.
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04-05-2009, 08:43 AM
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Comments on players mentioned earlier in this thread that I did not choose for my all-undrafted teams:

LW Sergei Yashin - This guy was going to make my team but the more I look, the less special he looks. The highest he ever placed in Russian League scoring is 9th. He may have scored 35 goals internationally when you count all the exhibition games Chidlovski counts, but in official tournaments he played 41 games with 7 goals and 9 assists. The only time he was ever close to the leading scorer on the National team was when he was 5th with 4 assists in the 1984 Canada Cup. There are much better choices - Skvortsov, Svetlov, Polupanov, and others.

G Wayne Stephenson - Not too bad. His resume is very similar to Gilles Villemure in a lot of ways.

D Joel Quenneville - Good for him for lasting 13 seasons, but he's a bit nondescript for my tastes. Never stood out offensively, and was frequently below -10.

RW Radek Dvorak - There are tons of active forwards with better accomplishments than him.

C Don Gallinger - Too much "woulda, coulda" with him. He did alright while he was around, but three of his 5 seasons were war-ravaged years.

C Art Jones - There's no question he was highly dominant in the WHL. maybe more dominant than anyone besides Guile Fielder. But when looking at the 100-odd players in the WHL in any given season, I see only about 10 names that had completed or were on their way to, decent NHL careers. Competition level is a major question mark. Is Jones one of the "next best" at this time? maybe. Tough to say. As you can see from my all-undrafted teams, I went with more "sure things".

C Milan Marcetta - Where are you seeing that he played just six full seasons in the WHL? I see 690 games over 13 seasons, which is closer to 10 full seasons when combined. In any case, I don't think he was that dominant, not to the level of a Jones or Fielder. The intriguing thing is the 14 in 14 in 1968. It was in a scrub division, but still, that's impressive. Flash of greatness, or sign of what could have been?

G Ken Campbell - A really impressive non-NHL resume: Allan Cup, Memorial Cup, World Championship. And he really is the shutout king: 19 shutouts in 110 recorded games. He's a case of a guy who never, ever played top competition but always stood out wherever he played. He is the goalie version of The Trail Smoke Eaters' Harry Smith, who I almost put on my third all-undrafted team.

LW Marco Sturm - Is 89th in points over the course of his career so far - tied with Darcy Tucker and behind undrafted players Lang, Prospal, Stillman, Brunette, Langkow, Nylander, Stumpel, Morrison, Samsonov, Smolinski, O'Neill, Kozlov, and Perreault. Do you like his defensive game that much?

RW/C Ian Laperriere - Good player, hard not to like him. Ethan Moreau lite. But I wouldn't name him in this thread, personally. This is much more pronounced in the ATD and MLD, of course, but there have been so many good players over the past 120 years, that we are able to get scorig stars like Keith Tkachuk, Martin St. Louis, and Marian Hossa on 4th lines in the ATD, Alf Skinner and Syl Apps Jr on MLD 4th lines, Mickoski and Satan in the AAA, and so on. Even after four drafts, there are plenty of talented hockey players who are either defensive specialists or decent offensive players who can play with a 3rd or 4th line mentality, as I've demonstrated with the likes of Baldy Cotton, Pete Horeck, Alexander Uvarov, Pete Babando, Ken Schinkel, etc. There is no need to select "real life 4th liners" to play on a 4th line in an all-time context. Even if they're the best at that 4th-line role. maybe if we get 2500 picks deep one of these drafts.

C Daymond Langkow - Really solid selection. I could have easily included him in my rosters. It was close. I like him a lot more than Sturm. Better offensively and defensively. Positional scarcity is the only thing that should see Sturm taken before Langkow.

LW/C Dave Hannan - See Ian Laperriere.

LW/C Peter Nedved - Did he do enough offensively to warrant selection or mention? One top-20 finish in goals and a bunch of 46-71 point seasons, leading to a decent career total. He's more established offensively than Sturm and Langkow, but the rest of his game is nonexistent.

LW Martin Rucinsky - Not bad. better all-around game and positional scarcity would make him a decent pick right now.

C Ab Demarco - Pit, I don't agree. Demarco played 65 games outside of the worst war years, and scored 25 points in them. Cain played over half his career before the war and had a couple of top-10 finishes. Likewise with Getliffe - 258 games, 151 points before the war.

LW Earl Balfour - It was close, but I just ran out of room. He was good at what he did, but so were the guys I took, and they were just better in other areas, like offensively or playoffs. It suddenly got really deep at LW - lots of guys who had three times the points per game as Balfour, and were also good checkers. Does he deserve a spot more than those guys?

LW Billy Dea, RW Billy McNeill, RW Bill Dineen - I'm not feeling it. They all look like decent checkers who couldn't stick in the big league long term. There are guys like them, who did stick around longer, who deserve credit first. Dineen had a good coaching career, though.

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04-05-2009, 08:47 AM
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Interesting... but do you think those guys really top-1000 all time?

I have a list of 50+ guys I decided were closer to scrubs than greats, didn't have the skill set (speed and hockey sense first and foremost) or experience or peak or career to warrant a depth ATD selection or MLD play.

That said,... there are some... Hrdina is a guy I absolutely respected and felt was majorly underappreciated. His skating and passing were pretty decent, his hockey sense incredible, always in the right place, making the smart plays. Good on face offs too. He had the talent to play against the best in an all-time context as a fourth line/extra skater utility role player. He had the talent and the peak (and I do NOT mean scoring points, unlike kyle's primary focus, in terms of judging worth to a hockey team) but not the career. I heemed and hummed about putting him on my AAA and Double-A teams, deciding in the end he might be a homer pick (I didn't like the Pens but not enough people I feel appreciate his talents as much as I do; he was crucial to that team in many ways).

Quote:
RW/C Ian Laperriere - Good player, hard not to like him. Ethan Moreau lite. But I wouldn't name him in this thread, personally. This is much more pronounced in the ATD and MLD, of course, but there have been so many good players over the past 120 years, that we are able to get scorig stars like Keith Tkachuk, Martin St. Louis, and Marian Hossa on 4th lines in the ATD, Alf Skinner and Syl Apps Jr on MLD 4th lines, Mickoski and Satan in the AAA, and so on. Even after four drafts, there are plenty of talented hockey players who are either defensive specialists or decent offensive players who can play with a 3rd or 4th line mentality, as I've demonstrated with the likes of Baldy Cotton, Pete Horeck, Alexander Uvarov, Pete Babando, Ken Schinkel, etc. There is no need to select "real life 4th liners" to play on a 4th line in an all-time context. Even if they're the best at that 4th-line role. maybe if we get 2500 picks deep one of these drafts.
If the hockey gods got together and said you and I had to ice a team to play for our immortal souls: You put Tkachuk on your fourth line when your opposition has Bure out there and you need to rest your scoring lines protecting a lead, I'll put Lappy, thank you very much.

A completely different orientation. You think like Kyle fine. Judge your top-1000 based on points scored. I played hockey. I wasn't a scorer myself. So I'm biased.

Yanic Perreault brought some skills (faceoffs and passing) to the NHL but he'd be completely lost in an all-time context (lack of footspeed and play through traffic).


Last edited by VanIslander: 04-05-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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04-05-2009, 09:10 AM
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Interesting... but do you think those guys really top-1000 all time?
Well, 1386 names (or thereabouts have been named) - do I think I am so good at researching that I just found 72 players/coaches who were missed by the end of the MLD? No. But most 9at least, half) of these guys should have a place there, honestly. I can think of numerous MLD players they compare favourably too.

Quote:
If the hockey gods got together and said you and I had to ice a team to play for our immortal souls: You put Tkachuk on your fourth line when your opposition has Bure out there and you need to rest your scoring lines protecting a lead, I'll put Lappy, thank you very much.
Tkachuk - bad example. Still - there are guys who can do what Lappy does when required, and are better at doing the things you just can't teach. Keep in mind it's not just Bure in an all-time draft - he could have Fedorov for a center, and Dickie Moore on the left side. Is Lappy going to cut it? No better than Tkachuk, I say, and at least Tkachuk might get a scoring chance on them too. We're talking about 4th lines, though. Stopping Bure, et. al - that's what your shutdown (generally 3rd) line is for. I want Patterson, Zamuner, Fonteyne, Schinkel out there against those guys.

Quote:
A completely different orientation. You think like Kyle fine. Judge your top-1000 based on points scored. I played hockey. I wasn't a scorer myself. So I'm biased.
No, it's not that at all. It's just that I'd rather have both. Why not have both?

Quote:
Yanic Perreault brought some skills (faceoffs and passing) to the NHL but he'd be completely lost in an all-time context (lack of footspeed and play through traffic).
Agree.

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04-05-2009, 09:17 AM
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Lappy brings speed, hitting and a true pesty attitude that gets under the skin and throws off some opposing players, adds energy and draws penalties. He goes into corners, he scoops out pucks, he upsets apple carts and has the sense and reaction time to adapt to a high tempo game. An agitator of the first order, with the skating and positional hockey sense to play well int he most competitive of games.

Somehow a *beep* like Darren McCarty is ATD worthy and a travesty that he was add/dropped and a guy like Lappy isn't even Double-A worthy? I think maybe you just haven't watched Lappy much, which is possible since he played most of his career for the little-watched Kings (I'm a huge Sharks fan and Kariya&Hebert Mighty Duck liker so saw many West coast time zone California games on cable in the nineties.

But I think Deadmarsh would do just fine in an ATD context as a fourth liner.

Judgements vary.

If there's ever a gap between drafts I'd like to do a 'guys drafted in the ATD who have no place on those teams' list.

Until then, good day.

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04-05-2009, 09:41 AM
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I'm well aware of what Lappy brings to the table. While I haven't seen him much, I do read a ton, and everything I've read corroborates what you say.

Still, sounds an awful lot like Darcy Tucker for most of his career, except Tucker was a 40-point player almost every season. See? Why not have both?

Your points about McCarty and Deadmarsh are well-made. And I fully agree. McCarty was a real life 3rd/usually 4th liner yet he keeps getting picked to play on ATD 4th lines. Deadmarsh can do everything he does, PLUS he's a much better player at the basic skills of hockey. This is exactly what I'm saying about Laperriere vs. guys like Horeck, Tucker, or Cotton.

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04-05-2009, 12:01 PM
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When I said Dvorak I actually meant Nedved. I remembered selecting one in my first MLD and I thought it was Dvorak at the time, and realized after VanI posted Nedved that it wasn't.

My bad there. I always get those two mixed up for some reason.

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04-05-2009, 12:36 PM
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When I said Dvorak I actually meant Nedved. I always get those two mixed up for some reason.
They both scored 30+ goals as a NY Ranger in the 2000-01 season.
They both were tall and Czech born.
They both were top-10 1st round draft picks who in the end left you wanting more.

Though Nedved had twice the skill and worldclass peaks (a great NHL season, a fantastic NHL postseason and a wonderful Olympics as an important member of Team Canada).


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04-05-2009, 01:30 PM
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Tkachuk - bad example. Still - there are guys who can do what Lappy does when required, and are better at doing the things you just can't teach. Keep in mind it's not just Bure in an all-time draft - he could have Fedorov for a center, and Dickie Moore on the left side. Is Lappy going to cut it? No better than Tkachuk, I say, and at least Tkachuk might get a scoring chance on them too. We're talking about 4th lines, though. Stopping Bure, et. al - that's what your shutdown (generally 3rd) line is for. I want Patterson, Zamuner, Fonteyne, Schinkel out there against those guys.
Exactly. A real life fourth liner isn't going to stop an ATD first line, and he's not going to score. A Tkachuk will score you some goals at least, and if need be you can coach him into being a mucker. You can't coach a Laperriere or McCarty into being a scorer.

I don't think Laperriere and McCarty comparisons are too off base, but McCarty was a third/fourth liner on a stacked team that won multiple Cups, that's what would get him on the radar in an ATD. Either way, I don't think either has any remote claim to being a top 1000 player of all time.

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04-05-2009, 08:15 PM
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A real life fourth liner isn't going to stop an ATD first liner


Every Selke winner is snapped up in the ATD but a Yelle never is. You have just explained to me what the mentality might be around here.

A defenseive defenseman who scores not at all is highly respected in the ATD, but a 12th forward who is defensive and scores not at all is unworthy.

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04-05-2009, 10:23 PM
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Every Selke winner is snapped up in the ATD but a Yelle never is. You have just explained to me what the mentality might be around here.

A defenseive defenseman who scores not at all is highly respected in the ATD, but a 12th forward who is defensive and scores not at all is unworthy.
Shake your head all you like.

First off, Stephane Yelle, in his prime, was not a 4th liner. He was an excellent 3rd liner on one of the elite teams of his generation. The difference between him and Laperriere (closer to a 4th liner) is leaps and bounds. And the difference between Yelle and a Mike Peca or Jere Lehtinen (the Selke winners you are perhaps alluding to?) is leaps and bounds.

HUGE difference between a defensive defenseman who gets snapped up in the ATD and a 12th forward in today's NHL. It's not like Brad Marsh and Steve Staios are going in the ATD. If they were, maybe you'd have a point. A 12th forward is the equivalent of a 6th defenseman. How many 6th defensemen from a 30-team league have gone in the ATD before?

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04-06-2009, 12:08 AM
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the difference between Yelle and a Mike Peca or Jere Lehtinen (the Selke winners you are perhaps alluding to?) is leaps and bounds.
do you honestly think when i said EVERY Selke gets snapped up I was thinking of MULTIPLE Selke winners ( again )

and the 12th SCORING forward is often not the 12th forward in terms of value. argggghhh.

we'll just have to agree to disagree.

this thread is not what it was intended to be. i'll leave it to you guys.

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04-06-2009, 12:57 AM
  #64
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I'm not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but one that I think deserves a mention for a coach is Bert Templeton. I believe he's third all-time in junior coaching victories (behind Kilrea and McMillan). He's one of the toughest, most demanding, no-nonsense coaches you'll ever deal with. And he was the coach for Canada in the Punch-Up at Piestany in 87. But I think he has a good enough grasp on the game

A lot of the guys mentioned, like Jimmy Carson, would never find their way on my team. Too soft. Too lazy. And in Carson's case, questionable commitment to the game. After the first year in Edmonton, he couldn't wait to get out of the city. The Oilers couldn't have been more thrilled - they received three guys who played an important role in their Cup win.

Give me a guy like Pivonka, with a reliable work ethic and solid performances, over a sulker like Carson any day of the week.

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04-06-2009, 01:24 AM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I'm not sure if he's been mentioned yet, but one that I think deserves a mention for a coach is Bert Templeton. I believe he's third all-time in junior coaching victories (behind Kilrea and McMillan). He's one of the toughest, most demanding, no-nonsense coaches you'll ever deal with. And he was the coach for Canada in the Punch-Up at Piestany in 87. But I think he has a good enough grasp on the game
Can't disagree there. With coaches, it's different from players. A player who never proved himself at the top level is a major risk. If your coach has never coached at the top levels, you can still get away with taking them and do alright, like people have with Brian Kilrea, Lloyd Percival, Dwight McMillan, and Fr. David Bauer. On that note, anoter guy who has over 1000 victories in pro hockey, is John Brophy. he's a bit of a loose nut, but he got results everywhere he went... except the NHL. Why wasn't he taken? Because he got to the NHL and failed with the terrible Leafs instead of staying out the the NHl entirely and leaving it in doubt whether he could cut it?

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A lot of the guys mentioned, like Jimmy Carson, would never find their way on my team. Too soft. Too lazy. And in Carson's case, questionable commitment to the game. After the first year in Edmonton, he couldn't wait to get out of the city. The Oilers couldn't have been more thrilled - they received three guys who played an important role in their Cup win.

Give me a guy like Pivonka, with a reliable work ethic and solid performances, over a sulker like Carson any day of the week.
We're 1300 picks deep. Carson is as talented as it gets at this point. I know you blacklist certain players for their personalities and that's fine. I understand you wouldn't take Pavel Bure if it was the 1000th pick in the draft and you were in the MLD. At some point for every player it becomes worth it to take him, no matter the downside. I think, at this point, it is that time for Carson. But there's definitely a lot to like about Pivonka. Carson made my first team; Pivonka my second. I could have easily switched them. I just thought Carson was the bigger talent. I'm not even a big Carson fan. At all. I just calls it as I sees it. I don't let it get personal.

Anyone else I've mentioned that you wouldn't touch? Not that I am looking for an argument or anything but I put a lot of work into finding who I thought were the best 72 picks left over after four drafts (kinda sucks that VI, my most respected counterpart in deep sub-1000 research, thought I made this thread into something it's not. What was that about, anyway?) so the more we can talk about and learn about said picks, the better.

I'd have named a 4th team if I thought there were 24 more players who could usurp 24 MLDers but by the end of the 3rd team I wasn't seeing much difference between them and marginal MLDers anymore. So, any other comments?

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04-06-2009, 06:37 PM
  #66
Kyle McMahon
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do you honestly think when i said EVERY Selke gets snapped up I was thinking of MULTIPLE Selke winners ( again )
With the single exception of Rick Meagher, every Selke winner ever is FAR above 4th line calibre. To compare the list of Selke winners with a 10-12 minute a night player in a 30-team league is like comparing a second line forward to the Hart winner.

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and the 12th SCORING forward is often not the 12th forward in terms of value. argggghhh.
When I say 12th forward, I mean 12th in terms of ice time, which usually correlates fairly well with overall value. Not sure what you meant it as.

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we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Probably for the best at this point.

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this thread is not what it was intended to be. i'll leave it to you guys.
Well then I'm taking my ball and I'm going home!

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04-18-2009, 09:44 PM
  #67
seventieslord
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hey VI - for reference's sake, can you please edit your OP and add the following?

Forwards:
Alexander Skvortsov
Viktor Polupanov
Tommy Williams
Harry Meeking
Jimmy Carson
Sergei Svetlov
Billy Harris
Pete Babando
Alexander Uvarov
Gerry Couture
Archie Briden
Vladimir Golikov
Alexander Golikov
Ken Smith
Alexander Martynyuk
Adam Brown
Michal Handzus
Ken Schinkel
Pete Horeck
Steve Rucchin
Mike Knuble
Alexander Kozhevnikov
Parker MacDonald
Guy Charron
Jiri Lala
Alex Kaleta
Robert Lang
Jonathan Cheechoo
Val Fonteyne
Rudy Migay
Bill Hicke
Baldy Cotton
Jiri Hrdina
Colin Patterson
Larry Popein

Defensemen:
Igor Stelnov
Keith Carney
Zarley Zalapski
Richard Matvichuk
Shawn Chambers
Scott Hannan
Vladimir Brezhnev
Jack Portland
Kent Douglas
Dana Murzyn
Paul Cavallini
Dan McGillis
Randy Manery
Jean Potvin
Dmitri Mironov
Boris Mironov
Robert Picard
John McKinnon
Marek Zidlicky

Goalies:
Reggie Lemelin
Daren Puppa
Earl Robertson
Hec Fowler
Roman Cechmanek
Alexander Sidelnikov
Ken Wregget
Sergei Mylnikov
Wayne Stephenson

Spares:
D/LW Wilf Loughlin
RW/D Yuri Krylov
D/RW Valeri Nitikin

Coaches:
Emile Francis
Marc Crawford
Jacques Martin

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