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Soviet League Scoring Top-3 Finishes

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03-30-2009, 01:17 PM
  #1
Triffy
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Soviet League Scoring Top-3 Finishes

Here's a table of the most notable players. The players are ranked by most top 3 finishes. The data is from http://www.hockeyarchives.info.

The number inside the cell represents the year when the player was in top-5.

Player1st2nd3rd4th5thTop-3Top-5
Guryshev49, 55, 57, 585450, 52, 53, 5651 -910
Makarov 80, 81, 82, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89 - - - - 9 9
Petrov 70, 73, 75, 78, 79 77 72 - 76 7 8
Krutov - 84, 85, 87, 89 82, 83, 86 - - 7 7
Bobrov 48, 51, 52 49, 50 55 - - 6 6
Starshinov 67, 68 69 62, 64, 65 70 63, 66 6 9
Aleksandrov 63 58, 64, 66 65 61 - 5 6
B. Mayorov - 62, 63 59, 61, 65 - 68 5 6
Mikhailov - 70, 75, 78 71, 79 69, 77 68, 73, 80 5 10
Balderis 77, 83 80 75, 85 76 79 5 7
Shuvalov 50, 53 51, 52 - 54 - 4 5
Almetov 64 61, 65 62 66 63 4 6
Maltsev 71 74 76, 77 - - 4 4
Firsov 66 67, 68 - - 69, 70 3 5
A. Yakushev 69 76 74 67 70 3 5
Kharlamov 72 71 69 - 70, 78 3 5
Larionov - 86, 88 87 - 82, 85 3 5
Grebennikov 56 - 58 60 55 2 4
Vikulov - 72 73 75 68 2 4
Drozdetsky - - 81, 84 - - 2 2
V. Yakushev 59 - - - - 1 1
Loktev - 59 - 58 64 1 3
Kapustin - 81 - 86 - 1 2
Bykov - - - 88, 89 - 0 2
Fetisov - - - 84 - 0 1

A few notes from different eras.

The Bobrov era
— Note that even if Guryshev has more top-3 appearances, Bobrov regularly outscored him. Still, impressive row of scoring finishes for Guryshev
— Shuvalov outscored Guryshev 4 of the 5 times he made it to the top-5.

Starshinov vs. Firsov
— Firsov was a top-3 scorer only three times. 5 times in top-5.
— Starshinov has respectable 9 top-5 finishes
— Firsov's finishes are from 1966 until 1970. During that 5 year period, Starshinov outscored Firsov 4 times. This is one of the most surprising results. Starshinov should definitely be in the discussion when talking about the best ever Soviet centers.
— Venjamin Alexandrov must be noted from the same era. He outscored Starshinov 3 times. 5 times in top-3. Another forgotten star is Almetov who had a short career but who consistently finished high in the scoring races.

Troika Petrov
— Petrov has 5 scoring titles. He outscored Mikhailov every year (8 times) he had a top-5 finish. Kharlamov outscored Petrov just three times. Like Starshinov, also Petrov is criminally underrated here.
— Mikhailov has impressive 10 top-5 finishes. He was clearly a reliable offensive force for a decade.
— 1974 is a strange year as there are no CSKA players in the top 5. I wonder if there's an obvious explanation for this or is it just coincidence.

KLM
— Not surprisingly, Makarov was the most dominant offensive player of the KLM line. 9 times out of 10 possible he was the scoring leader. Only Balderis managed to win once in 1983 when Makarov played only 30 games (compared to Balderis' 40).
— It should be noted that by the time KLM was put together, basically all the best players were playing in CSKA. In the 1970's there were players like Maltsev, Yakushev and Balderis playing in a competing team.

That's a start. It'd be interesting to hear your comments and analysis.


Last edited by Triffy: 03-30-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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03-30-2009, 05:14 PM
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This is awesome.

It's really, really funny that you just posted this, because I have been researching this exact same thing, at the exact same site, all morning. I've made a list of multiple top-5 players who slipped through the ATD, MLD, AAA, and AA drafts to post as top free agents. At this point, Grebennikov, Kozhevnikov, and Martynyuk look the most impressive.

As for Guryshev, would it not also be fair to say he regularly outscored Bobrov and Shuvalov? One of the times he led the league in goals, it was also by a disgustingly wide margin:

1955:
1 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 41
2 Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo 27
3 Vsevolod Bobrov CSK MO 25
4 Nikolaï Khlystov Krylia 20
5 Vladimir Grebennikov Krylia 19
Yuri Pantyukhov CSK MO 19
Yuri Krylov CSK MO 19

In '49 he led Bobrov by 2 and in '50 Bobrov led him by 2. Aside from that, oddly enough, each of Bobrov, Shuvalov and Guryshev had one massively dominant year against the others.

1953:
1 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 44
2 Belyaï Bekyashev ODO L. 28
3 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 26
4 Nikolaï Khlystov Krylia 22
5 Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo 19

1951:
1 Vsevolod Bobrov VVS 42
2 Viktor Shuvalov VVS 25
3 Aleksandr Uvarov Dynamo 21
4 Alekseï Guryshev Krylia 20
5 Leonid Stepanov Krylia 13
Viktor Klimovich Dynamo 13
Evgeni Babich VVS 13

Bobrov's 1952 title was also pretty dominating, though not to the above degrees. Guryshev then had two pretty dominating seasons after Bobrov and Shuvalov were gone (or at least after they were finished being elite players... I can't remember.)

I'm not sure why Bobrov almost made the HOH top-100 and regularly plays on ATD first and second lines, while Shuvalov and Guryshev were never mentioned until the AA and AAA drafts, respectively. Bobrov is almost certainly the best of the three, but is he THAT much better? I think not. In fact, I know not, considering it's well documented how selfish, lazy, and defensively irresponsible he was.

I think Guryshev's highly underrated. If my other AAA draft centers weren't so damn good, I'd put him on a top scoring line up there!

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03-30-2009, 11:18 PM
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According to the Society for International Hockey research(Exclusive Site with massive International database I just joined yesterday when I saw SeventiesLord link it, which is pretty far ahead of all other international sites in terms of statistics database)

Kharlamov was 3rd in scoring in 1968-69, 3rd in 1969-70, 2nd in 1070-71, 1st in 1971-72, 6th in 1973-74(But he missed 6 games and had an equal PPG with the 3rd place finisher), 5th in 1974-75, 4th in 1977-78, Tied for 4th/5th in 1978-79

http://www.sihrhockey.org/

Unfortunately, its a pay site, but as Seventies pointed out, its worth every penny as it does not even cost as much to take the wife to dinner.

If needs be, ill just take screenshots and post them if you want.


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03-31-2009, 12:50 AM
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I wonder why the sihr database has some slightly conflicting numbers with hockeyarchives.info.

They have next to nothing on the older russian years at this point but full goals, assists, PIM for the whole league starting in about 1970 IIRC.

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03-31-2009, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wonder why the sihr database has some slightly conflicting numbers with hockeyarchives.info.

They have next to nothing on the older russian years at this point but full goals, assists, PIM for the whole league starting in about 1970 IIRC.
I was trying to cross reference it with hockeyarchives.info, but that site is notoriously difficult to navigate through. Thus far, it seems close to identical.

It should be noted how differently Soviet's counted assists and offensive production, and how inaccurate their counts were before the 80's. Very often, the MVP voting was completely at odds with available statistical information.

For Example, in the year Petrov lead the league in scoring in 69-70, he was among the only players that Assist data was available for(Only 5 players out of around 40 had recorded assists, and those numbers were very ambiguous, indicating extreme flaws in the counting). That year, Petrov did not even crack top 5 in MVP voting
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File Type: jpg USSR scoring 69-70.jpg‎ (174.9 KB, 48 views)

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03-31-2009, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm not sure why Bobrov almost made the HOH top-100 and regularly plays on ATD first and second lines, while Shuvalov and Guryshev were never mentioned until the AA and AAA drafts, respectively. Bobrov is almost certainly the best of the three, but is he THAT much better? I think not. In fact, I know not, considering it's well documented how selfish, lazy, and defensively irresponsible he was.

I think Guryshev's highly underrated. If my other AAA draft centers weren't so damn good, I'd put him on a top scoring line up there!
This book "Kings Of the Ice" is largely based on Tarasov memoirs. Be careful with tag's like "selfish", "lazy" Tarasov hated Bobrov with a passion.

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03-31-2009, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
For Example, in the year Petrov lead the league in scoring in 69-70, he was among the only players that Assist data was available for(Only 5 players out of around 40 had recorded assists, and those numbers were very ambiguous, indicating extreme flaws in the counting). That year, Petrov did not even crack top 5 in MVP voting
There’s was no such thing as MVP title and All-stars teams in Soviet league. Few biggest sport newspapers (Sovsport, Soccer-hockey, Trud, Sport-express) had their own awards for best lines, best players etc.

So when you list somebody like Tretyak as a 5 times "MVP" title winner it doesn't mean that he actually 5 times was universally considered the best player in Soviet league...

Tretyak won "soccer+hockey" journal MVP award in 1973 over Anisin. That was the year where Soviet Wings won the championship over CSKA, scored most and allowed least goals and Anisin scored most points.

Where you take these stats about Petrov? Assist was't recorded till 60's at all, secondary assists was non-existant at all in Soviet league.

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03-31-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Avy View Post
There’s was no such thing as MVP title and All-stars teams in Soviet league. Few biggest sport newspapers (Sovsport, Soccer-hockey, Trud, Sport-express) had their own awards for best lines, best players etc.

So when you list somebody like Tretyak as a 5 times "MVP" title winner it doesn't mean that he actually 5 times was universally considered the best player in Soviet league...

Tretyak won "soccer+hockey" journal MVP award in 1973 over Anisin. That was the year where Soviet Wings won the championship over CSKA, scored most and allowed least goals and Anisin scored most points.
Professional Hockey writers Journalists are also where the NHL Hart and other Trophy voting comes from. I am not sure who did the voting on these MVP results, but it was taken from hockeyarchives.

Do you have evidence that the so called "Soviet MVP" voting is as you say? Multiple Russian sources cite it as reliable.

Quote:
Where you take these stats about Petrov? Assist was't recorded till 60's at all, secondary assists was non-existant at all in Soviet league.
Every Stats tracking site has a few years where Assists were tracked for a few players, but never completely, from old newspaper articles, etc. From 69-70 forward, the results start to get more and more complete, but are not very reliable until the late 70's, early 80's.

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03-31-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avy View Post
This book "Kings Of the Ice" is largely based on Tarasov memoirs. Be careful with tag's like "selfish", "lazy" Tarasov hated Bobrov with a passion.
I have Kings of the Ice, but it is not there that I learned things like this about Bobrov. I learned much of it in "The Red Machine". Things like:

- He would stand at center ice stationary, sometimes for up to a minute.

- He had a habit of refusing to leave the ice until he had scored a goal

- The USA coach, after Russia beat them, said "Bobrov didn't hurt us much. He just stood around at center ice like a dummy."

- He was supposed to make a trip with his team, ran into an old friend at the airport, stuck around to talk with him, and missed the flight, abandoning his team. The team's best defenseman, who stayed back to look for Bobrov, also missed the flight because of him.

- It said that he was the same way in Football, letting his teammates do the dirty work while he went looking for glory. (it is quotes like that that tell me his selfishness went beyond playing style and had more to do with what type of person he was)

There are also Tarasov quotes in there but like you alluded to, I learned pretty quickly to take them with a grain of salt because of the feelings between those two. It's funny though - Shuvalov, who by all accounts was a very conscientious player, did not get along with Bobrov and had to begrudgingly accept that he was the "star" of the line. I wonder how things have played out if Shuvalov sat at center ice and Bobrov helped out in his own zone. Would Shuvalov be known as the star and pioneer of early Russian hockey? Probably!

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03-31-2009, 03:29 PM
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Professional Hockey writers Journalists are also where the NHL Hart and other Trophy voting comes from. I am not sure who did the voting on these MVP results, but it was taken from hockeyarchives.

And i take Art and Richard over incredibly subjective Selke or Norris every time.

Do you have evidence that the so called "Soviet MVP" voting is as you say? Multiple Russian sources cite it as reliable.

What evidence? Its just lost in traslation. The whole "MVP" award called - "The best player of the season" (Soccer-hockey journal award). Bunch of journalist's from newspaper decided who they think was the best since 1967.

There was many more prestigious award's in soviet hockey in that time.

All-stars teams format was different in different years. Goalie, 2 defenders and 1 forward. Goalie and the best forward's line and so on.


Every Stats tracking site has a few years where Assists were tracked for a few players, but never completely, from old newspaper articles, etc. From 69-70 forward, the results start to get more and more complete, but are not very reliable until the late 70's, early 80's.
You wan't find assists records for 40's and 50's that's for sure. What im trying to do its find old sovsport season ending hockey books with full statistic for 60's. Trying like 4 our's already.

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03-31-2009, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I have Kings of the Ice, but it is not there that I learned things like this about Bobrov. I learned much of it in "The Red Machine". Things like:

- He would stand at center ice stationary, sometimes for up to a minute.

- He had a habit of refusing to leave the ice until he had scored a goal

- The USA coach, after Russia beat them, said "Bobrov didn't hurt us much. He just stood around at center ice like a dummy."

- He was supposed to make a trip with his team, ran into an old friend at the airport, stuck around to talk with him, and missed the flight, abandoning his team. The team's best defenseman, who stayed back to look for Bobrov, also missed the flight because of him.

- It said that he was the same way in Football, letting his teammates do the dirty work while he went looking for glory. (it is quotes like that that tell me his selfishness went beyond playing style and had more to do with what type of person he was)

There are also Tarasov quotes in there but like you alluded to, I learned pretty quickly to take them with a grain of salt because of the feelings between those two. It's funny though - Shuvalov, who by all accounts was a very conscientious player, did not get along with Bobrov and had to begrudgingly accept that he was the "star" of the line. I wonder how things have played out if Shuvalov sat at center ice and Bobrov helped out in his own zone. Would Shuvalov be known as the star and pioneer of early Russian hockey? Probably!

Be careful with what you read man. I read long long interviw with Shuvalov - they was the best friends, off the ice and while these guys (Shuvalov, Guryshov, Babich,) had their own dominant seasons they all said that V. Bobrov was the best of generation, maybe the best ever. Bobrov the best and most dominant, its universally accepted among his peers.
Too bad i can't translate inetrview with Bobrov wife where many of these "story's" about Bobrov was destroyed.

Like any other extremely talented sniper Bobrov was extremely selfish. He was selfish like R. Hull and Mikhailov.

Borov is one of the greatest athletes in history if not the greatest ever.

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03-31-2009, 05:18 PM
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The Red Machine was not a smear campaign against Bobrov at all. It actually focused on the positive a lot more than those things I mentioned. But it certainly strove to tell both sides of the story.

As for Shuvalov, that was poor wording on my part. Initially he did not get along with him because Bobrov believed the game revolved around him. Shuvalov, being a good team player, finally accepted this.

To say Bobrov is possibly one of the greatest athletes ever is really an overstatement. If he was able to play his primary sport at its highest level (i.e in the NHL or in international competition against the very best) or if he was at least known to be a complete talent and not just a one-dimensional player at the level he played, then we could start talking about him that way.

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03-31-2009, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The Red Machine was not a smear campaign against Bobrov at all. It actually focused on the positive a lot more than those things I mentioned. But it certainly strove to tell both sides of the story.

As for Shuvalov, that was poor wording on my part. Initially he did not get along with him because Bobrov believed the game revolved around him. Shuvalov, being a good team player, finally accepted this.

To say Bobrov is possibly one of the greatest athletes ever is really an overstatement. If he was able to play his primary sport at its highest level (i.e in the NHL or in international competition against the very best) or if he was at least known to be a complete talent and not just a one-dimensional player at the level he played, then we could start talking about him that way.
But game... actually revolved after him. He is not partly mythological presonge or just pioneer of hockey like Hobey Baker.
10 seconds of footage with him bulldozing through defenders like
Lemieux impress me more than anything Mikhailov did in his career.
Bobrov had bunch of moves named after him. He was the dominant force. Starshinov (player with good enough competition for you?) said he was abale to manhandle them on preseason games at 50, long after he done with hockey career and become a coach.

Maybe there was bigger stars in hockey than Bobrov. Maybe there was bigger stars in soccer, but there was nobody in modern era who was abale to dominate in 3 different sports and after that win everything as a coach. The man is freaking legend.

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03-31-2009, 09:11 PM
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What evidence? Its just lost in traslation. The whole "MVP" award called - "The best player of the season" (Soccer-hockey journal award). Bunch of journalist's from newspaper decided who they think was the best since 1967.

There was many more prestigious award's in soviet hockey in that time.

All-stars teams format was different in different years. Goalie, 2 defenders and 1 forward. Goalie and the best forward's line and so on.

You wan't find assists records for 40's and 50's that's for sure. What im trying to do its find old sovsport season ending hockey books with full statistic for 60's. Trying like 4 our's already.
Can you show us some proof that these MVP awards were done by these second rate newspapers?

The few sources I have seen seem to think these MVP awards were legitimate.

Even so, why would you demean them simply because a Newspaper voted for them? Journalist voting is how they rank the NHL MVP awards as well, and they are usually very on the mark.

Quote:
There was many more prestigious award's in soviet hockey in that time.
Show us, results and all. What awards do you speak of? I am interested.

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04-01-2009, 06:55 AM
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Firstly, very good job, Triffy.

But like Thornton_19 has already said here, it looks like only in the late Seventies or so do these stats start to have some true reliability. Am I supposed to believe that Firsov, who was simply the best Soviet player and usually the most productive scorer in international tournaments between 1968 and 1971, could only manage one 2nd and a couple of 5th placings during that period. I guess it's possible, but very strange nevertheless. Did they somehow 'save him' for the World Championships? Would he only get truly fired up in those international games?

Good ole USSR. They just... always... leave... you... guessing.

PS. Starshinov is definitely an underrated player. And Petrov


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04-01-2009, 10:38 AM
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Firstly, very good job, Triffy.

But like Thornton_19 has already said here, it looks like only in the late Seventies or so do these stats start to have some true reliability. Am I supposed to believe that Firsov, who was simply the best Soviet player and usually the most productive scorer in international tournaments between 1968 and 1971, could only manage one 2nd and a couple of 5th placings during that period. I guess it's possible, but very strange nevertheless. Did they somehow 'save him' for the World Championships? Would he only get truly fired up in those international games?

Good ole USSR. They just... always... leave... you... guessing.

PS. Starshinov is definitely an underrated player. And Petrov
Well, the goal scoring they recorded seems to be very accurate. Its the assists that just are not well represented. Regarding Firsov during that time, it should be noted that the Games played seem to be well recorded, and that him and Kharlamov missed a lot of time in comparison to their peers. A lot of time in the soviet league being 5-10 games, which would be like missing 10-20 games in the NHL.

I am more interested in hearing him substantiate his claim that the MVP voting is done by unofficial sources. Substantiate it with evidence mind you, not just Avy's " say so".

Regarding the research, I will say that Petrov's case does seem to look better and better with each argument. Certainly enough to get me to consider him for higher standing on my list. But definitely not enough to get him up to the Mikhailov/Makarov level. I was reading some interesting tidbits recently that indicate Petrov was a below average defensive player before the Summit series, which he credits playing against Esposito/Clarke with helping him develop into a better more complete player. It also correlates why he was not given Soviet MVP votes earlier in his career, as opposed to after the Summit series.


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04-01-2009, 11:57 AM
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Can you show us some proof that these MVP awards were done by these second rate newspapers?

The few sources I have seen seem to think these MVP awards were legitimate.

Not second rate. "Soccer-hockey" was the 2 or 3 most popular sport media in USSR.

You need a proof? Dvortsov - famous soviet hockey journalist complained in his book "Viyzov Prinyat" that there a lot of small award's but no one big MVP award like in NHL or in Soccer with coache's and captain's of the best team's voting. Page 375.
This book was written 15 year's after Soccer-hockey award was created. Enough or i should download 400mb archives with pdf of non-existant 20 year's already newspaper?


Even so, why would you demean them simply because a Newspaper voted for them? Journalist voting is how they rank the NHL MVP awards as well, and they are usually very on the mark.

Huge difference. At least in NA you have bunch of media's arguing with each other whole year about every stats and every single preformance of the candidats. With soccer Ballon d'Or you got 100 journalists from across the Europe.

Show us, results and all. What awards do you speak of? I am interested.

Not purple hockey related but for achievements in hockey. Like Lenin Order. I belive only Mikhailov and Tretyak of all hockey players
got one. It was like x1000 more prestigious.
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04-01-2009, 12:13 PM
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Aside from that, oddly enough, each of Bobrov, Shuvalov and Guryshev had one massively dominant year against the others.
I noticed that too. What does it tell you?

If we assume that the stats are reliable, I think it tells that the level of play must have been low. It must be remembered that the Soviets didn't become dominant in the international circles until the mid 60's, which supports the theory.

Soviets took part in the world championships first time in 1954.

YearGoldSilver
1954Soviet UnionCanada
1955CanadaSoviet Union
1956Soviet UnionUSA
1957SwedenSoviet Union
1958CanadaSoviet Union
1959CanadaSoviet Union
1960USACanada
1961CanadaCzechoslovakia
1962SwedenCanada
1963Soviet UnionSweden

In 1962 the Soviets didn't take part in the tournament. From 1963 onwards they won basically every year.

Starshinov's national team career started in 1963. Firsov's in 1964. They already had guys like Almetov, Alexandrov and Ragulin in the lineup. So somewhere in the 60's was the first time they had considerable depth. And depth tells us about the level of play in the national league. Before 1963 they had had guys like Tregubov and Sologubov (who I value very highly) on defense and Bobrov was the key forward. Not much besides that. But from the mid-1960's, I think it's fair to say that the level of play was pretty good.

So when did Europeans become good enough to play in the NHL? For me that's a fascinating question. And hard to answer.

In 1957 Tumba Johansson was the first European trained player to attend to an NHL training camp. I guess most of you have read the story, but the ones who haven't, it's here. I think it's approriate to say that Tumba was good enough to play in the NHL. He was among the best players in Europe without a doubt. However, he wasn't clearly dominating either in the Swedish national league or in world championships. Some players were actually scoring at similar pace. Another Swede Nisse Nilsson. And Bobrov of course. Ulf Sterner was the first European trained player to play in the NHL in 1964/65 but I don't think anyone would say that he was the best player in Europe at that time.

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04-01-2009, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Well, the goal scoring they recorded seems to be very accurate. Its the assists that just are not well represented. Regarding Firsov during that time, it should be noted that the Games played seem to be well recorded, and that him and Kharlamov missed a lot of time in comparison to their peers. A lot of time in the soviet league being 5-10 games, which would be like missing 10-20 games in the NHL.

I am more interested in hearing him substantiate his claim that the MVP voting is done by unofficial sources. Substantiate it with evidence mind you, not just Avy's " say so".

Regarding the research, I will say that Petrov's case does seem to look better and better with each argument. Certainly enough to get me to consider him for higher standing on my list. But definitely not enough to get him up to the Mikhailov/Makarov level. I was reading some interesting tidbits recently that indicate Petrov was a below average defensive player before the Summit series, which he credits playing against Esposito/Clarke with helping him develop into a better more complete player. It also correlates why he was not given Soviet MVP votes earlier in his career, as opposed to after the Summit series.
You consider Makarov and Mikhailov to be on the same level? I think Makarov had such an edge in talent (their careers about equally good) that I rate him clearly higher...

Petrov is growing on you!

I don't know whether Petrov changed much after the Summit Series or not, but I think he was the only so called 2-way player on Troika Petrova... as well as being THE playmaker. Of course Kharlamov was the better player (1968-76) and probably Mikhailov too, but IMO it's closer than most people think.

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04-01-2009, 01:43 PM
  #20
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I noticed that too. What does it tell you?

If we assume that the stats are reliable, I think it tells that the level of play must have been low.
What I meant was, they had dominating years against eachother in particular.

The level of play was low, and that's why these three players in particular were able to dominate the pack so much. But they also each had their moments as the top dog.

This is why I think Bobrov is getting far more than his share of the glory, when Guryshev and Shuvalov appear to be close to as good as him. Does that mean I think they should be up in the ATD? No. But he should probably be down in the MLD.

Quote:
It must be remembered that the Soviets didn't become dominant in the international circles until the mid 60's, which supports the theory.
Agree. Part of why Bobrov's legend is overblown.

Soviets took part in the world championships first time in 1954.

Quote:
YearGoldSilver
1954Soviet UnionCanada
1955CanadaSoviet Union
1956Soviet UnionUSA
1957SwedenSoviet Union
1958CanadaSoviet Union
1959CanadaSoviet Union
1960USACanada
1961CanadaCzechoslovakia
1962SwedenCanada
1963Soviet UnionSweden
This definitely shows that, like I've always said, the Russians just weren't "there" yet in the 1950's. They had 7 medals in this period just like Canada, and four more than the next best, Sweden. But they were playing amateurs from Canada.

That's why it's so hard to figure out where to slot a guy like Bobrov on an all-time list. He was the best LW in Russia in the 50's. Great, but where does that place him on a worldwide level? Could he have been the best in the world, like Ted Lindsay? maybe top-5, like Tony Leswick? An average player like Jack McIntyre? Or were his skills not even NHL-caliber and he only looked so good against amateurs? (guys like John Petro outscored him) In a Russian-only bubble, pretending there was no better hockey going on elsewhere, Bobrov may very well be the best Russian player ever, or at least top-5. But trying to slot him on an all-time worldwide list is tough. He just about made the HOH top-100 last time but then everyone changed their minds when he came up for voting and he won't be anywhere near the top-100 this time.

Complicating matters is that Guryshev put together a longer and more dominant domestic streak, and Shuvalov put together a string almost as impressive, and both had Bobrov as competition.

Complicating matters further is that Bobrov and Shuvalov obviously benefitted from eachother, but who did Guryshev benefit from?

Quote:
In 1962 the Soviets didn't take part in the tournament. From 1963 onwards they won basically every year.

Starshinov's national team career started in 1963. Firsov's in 1964. They already had guys like Almetov, Alexandrov and Ragulin in the lineup. So somewhere in the 60's was the first time they had considerable depth. And depth tells us about the level of play in the national league. Before 1963 they had had guys like Tregubov and Sologubov (who I value very highly) on defense and Bobrov was the key forward. Not much besides that. But from the mid-1960's, I think it's fair to say that the level of play was pretty good.
Agree.

Quote:
So when did Europeans become good enough to play in the NHL? For me that's a fascinating question. And hard to answer.

In 1957 Tumba Johansson was the first European trained player to attend to an NHL training camp. I guess most of you have read the story, but the ones who haven't, it's here. I think it's approriate to say that Tumba was good enough to play in the NHL. He was among the best players in Europe without a doubt. However, he wasn't clearly dominating either in the Swedish national league or in world championships. Some players were actually scoring at similar pace. Another Swede Nisse Nilsson. And Bobrov of course. Ulf Sterner was the first European trained player to play in the NHL in 1964/65 but I don't think anyone would say that he was the best player in Europe at that time.
I'm thinking Tumba was good enough to play but there is little evidence he would be dominant. Bobrov may have also been able to play in the NHL in the 1950s but he would need a ton of coaching and would have needed immense skill to stick as a one-dimensional player so I'm on the fence as to whether he could have.

The more I read, the more I think the breaking point was around the mid-1960s. In the early 1960's the Russians began spanking our amateurs, and in 1972 they handed our Pros' ***** to them three times before they woke up.

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04-01-2009, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Avy View Post
Not second rate. "Soccer-hockey" was the 2 or 3 most popular sport media in USSR.

You need a proof? Dvortsov - famous soviet hockey journalist complained in his book "Viyzov Prinyat" that there a lot of small award's but no one big MVP award like in NHL or in Soccer with coache's and captain's of the best team's voting. Page 375.
This book was written 15 year's after Soccer-hockey award was created. Enough or i should download 400mb archives with pdf of non-existant 20 year's already newspaper?

Huge difference. At least in NA you have bunch of media's arguing with each other whole year about every stats and every single preformance of the candidats. With soccer Ballon d'Or you got 100 journalists from across the Europe.

Not purple hockey related but for achievements in hockey. Like Lenin Order. I belive only Mikhailov and Tretyak of all hockey players
got one. It was like x1000 more prestigious.

<><><>
Not good enough.

We need linked, accessible sources that back up what you are saying, not your word and a reference to some obscure book that does not even come up in a google search. Your word is just not good enough for me.

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04-02-2009, 12:55 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Not good enough.

We need linked, accessible sources that back up what you are saying, not your word and a reference to some obscure book that does not even come up in a google search. Your word is just not good enough for me.

http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/dvorc...vyzov_prinyat/

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04-02-2009, 01:14 AM
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Terrific. Now scan the page with that particular quote where he makes this comment to prove it is in the book, and explain to me why his word is better than the other Russian Journalists and website sources(Eurohockey.net. Hockeyarchives.info, Chidlovsky.com) which support the MVP voting as legitimate.

Like I said "accessible sources that back up what you are saying"


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 04-02-2009 at 01:24 AM.
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04-02-2009, 05:06 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Terrific. Now scan the page with that particular quote where he makes this comment to prove it is in the book, and explain to me why his word is better than the other Russian Journalists and website sources(Eurohockey.net. Hockeyarchives.info, Chidlovsky.com) which support the MVP voting as legitimate.

Like I said "accessible sources that back up what you are saying"

I was merely providing a link to the source since basic Russian hockey books appear to be too 'obscure' for your liking.

A quick google search didn’t reveal much on hockey; however the Soviet Footballer of the Year was, in fact, determined by voting journalist from “football-hockey” with no input from other medias or Soviet Football League.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%...1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

With that in mind, with what Dvortsov said in his book, and considering other hockey awards were media connected (Izvestiya top scorer, Trud best line award)
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/ussr/index.htm
I have no reason to doubt that the award (what people today consider the legitimate "MVP"...probably by default) was most likely also determined in that manner.


Last edited by Zine: 04-02-2009 at 05:45 AM.
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04-02-2009, 09:43 AM
  #25
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I was merely providing a link to the source since basic Russian hockey books appear to be too 'obscure' for your liking.

A quick google search didn’t reveal much on hockey; however the Soviet Footballer of the Year was, in fact, determined by voting journalist from “football-hockey” with no input from other medias or Soviet Football League.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%...1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

With that in mind, with what Dvortsov said in his book, and considering other hockey awards were media connected (Izvestiya top scorer, Trud best line award)
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1974/ussr/index.htm
I have no reason to doubt that the award (what people today consider the legitimate "MVP"...probably by default) was most likely also determined in that manner.
Wikipedia(The site you linked), even the Russian Wikipedia, is not a legitimate source. Anyone can go in an quickly edit any page they want to say anything they want.

And theTop scorer award and best line award were not "picked/Voted" award. It was simple math, adding up each goal from each line. Whoever had the most won or whoever scored the most won.

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