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Old
03-10-2004, 01:53 PM
  #1
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Flyers & Bertuzzi

Well I guess my last post was in bad taste, so here goes again.

I think Clarke would be a GM willing to give Bertuzzi a second chance. In fact, I believe there is a chance he'll make a pitch for him in the summer. Thoughts?

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03-10-2004, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrachlinexperience
Well I guess my last post was in bad taste, so here goes again.

I think Clarke would be a GM willing to give Bertuzzi a second chance. In fact, I believe there is a chance he'll make a pitch for him in the summer. Thoughts?

Watch out......Big brother is watching!

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03-10-2004, 02:53 PM
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Why would Vancouver give up on him? Any gm in the league would be stupid not to want this guy, even after what he did. If I was moderator I would shut
this no-sense nonsense thread down. :p

If Gretz, one of the most gentlemanly players ever, and phoenix considered signing Mcsorley after what happened to Brash, why would GM's hold anything against a force like Bertuzzi from playing on their team? I bet even Pierre Lacroix would take him. It was obviously a bad and misfortunate "accident" that went too far. "Accident" in a sense of the outcome only. It was obviously not Bertuzzi's intentions to seriously hurt the guy. Everything went wrong when he got knocked out with the punch on the side of the helmet.
Gretz will still want Bertuzzi to play for team canada and Bertuzzi will still be a Canuck next year.

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03-10-2004, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tytech
Gretz will still want Bertuzzi to play for team canada and Bertuzzi will still be a Canuck next year.
Exactly. That's why the suspension can't be half a year or anything. 10-15 games.

If Bertuzzi is still suspended into next season, he won't be eligible for Team Canada, which means that Gretzky has already had this discussion with Colin Campbell. Unofficially, of course.

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03-10-2004, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry44
Exactly. That's why the suspension can't be half a year or anything. 10-15 games.

If Bertuzzi is still suspended into next season, he won't be eligible for Team Canada, which means that Gretzky has already had this discussion with Colin Campbell. Unofficially, of course.

I think the debate is whether it's the rest of regular season or rest of the year. I highly doubt he'll get more then this year including playoffs. You can't compare Mcsorley and Bertuzzi therefore he shouldn't be suspended for a year. He should get 10-15 games and add on first round if the NHL makes an example of him but anything more would be pushing it. It's a league issue, not a bertuzzi issue. If they clamp down on overall aggressive behaviour so be it, but to use one player as an example isn't exactly going to teach a lesson or completely overhall the process.

Hopefully the moderators don't shut this down and tell us to use the main thread. I like to know what Flyer fans think. I'm not interested what joe blow from Anaheim thinks. I want to know the opinions of the guys I have been dealing and debating with all season.

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03-10-2004, 03:59 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech
I think the debate is whether it's the rest of regular season or rest of the year. I highly doubt he'll get more then this year including playoffs. You can't compare Mcsorley and Bertuzzi therefore he shouldn't be suspended for a year. He should get 10-15 games and add on first round if the NHL makes an example of him but anything more would be pushing it. It's a league issue, not a bertuzzi issue. If they clamp down on overall aggressive behaviour so be it, but to use one player as an example isn't exactly going to teach a lesson or completely overhall the process.

Hopefully the moderators don't shut this down and tell us to use the main thread. I like to know what Flyer fans think. I'm not interested what joe blow from Anaheim thinks. I want to know the opinions of the guys I have been dealing and debating with all season.





40 GAMES PLEASE.....and ban that idiotic instigator rule once and for all. By the way, I love bertuzzi and I'm Canadian. That being said, I still don't want to see him on the ice anytime before next October or November. This isn't a broken nose or torn knee ligaments, it's a broken neck....the NHL will raise the bar.

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03-10-2004, 04:21 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club
40 GAMES PLEASE.....and ban that idiotic instigator rule once and for all. By the way, I love bertuzzi and I'm Canadian. That being said, I still don't want to see him on the ice anytime before next October or November. This isn't a broken nose or torn knee ligaments, it's a broken neck....the NHL will raise the bar.
The punishment should not take into account the injury, solely the action. Bertuzzi should be liable to pay the medical bills if Moore chose to sue but the penalty system within hockey is more like a criminal case. The punishment is for the action not the outcome. For instance, if McSorely has hit Brashear as he did but Brashear had been fine McSorely should still have gotten the same amount of punishment. The crime results in the punishment not the injury inflicted. I would give Bertuzzi about a 20 game suspension.

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03-10-2004, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982
The punishment should not take into account the injury, solely the action. Bertuzzi should be liable to pay the medical bills if Moore chose to sue but the penalty system within hockey is more like a criminal case. The punishment is for the action not the outcome. For instance, if McSorely has hit Brashear as he did but Brashear had been fine McSorely should still have gotten the same amount of punishment. The crime results in the punishment not the injury inflicted. I would give Bertuzzi about a 20 game suspension.
Huh? In criminal law, the injury often dictates the crime and the punishment. For example, if I punch somebody and he has a bloody lip, I'm charged with battery and pay a fine. But if I punch somebody, he falls over, hits his head on the street and dies, now I'm charged with manslaugter and will be heading to the pokey for a few years or longer. My action in both cases - the punch - was the exact same, but the result makes all the difference in the world.
IMO, Bertuzzi should be gone 25 games. If the Canuckleheads run deep into the playoffs and he can play, fine. If they're out in the first round, carry it over into next year and no World Cup for the tough guy.

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03-10-2004, 05:23 PM
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I'd have no problem if they added him. But, he makes 7 mil a year right? He's playing far below a 7 mil player and I doubt the Flyers want to add another LeClair-like contract.

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03-10-2004, 05:41 PM
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noway Vancouver thinks about trading Bertuzzi unless they get a kings ransome in return.

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Old
03-10-2004, 06:02 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Huh? In criminal law, the injury often dictates the crime and the punishment. For example, if I punch somebody and he has a bloody lip, I'm charged with battery and pay a fine. But if I punch somebody, he falls over, hits his head on the street and dies, now I'm charged with manslaugter and will be heading to the pokey for a few years or longer. My action in both cases - the punch - was the exact same, but the result makes all the difference in the world.
IMO, Bertuzzi should be gone 25 games. If the Canuckleheads run deep into the playoffs and he can play, fine. If they're out in the first round, carry it over into next year and no World Cup for the tough guy.
Getting beat up in life is NOT an assumed risk. In a hockey game where a couple weeks before you INTENTIONALLY elbow a player and knock him out, the talk since has been about getting revenge for what you did, IS an assumed risk.

Nobody knows if what Bertuzzi did injured Moore's neck or everyone piling on after. To say that Bertuzzi broke his neck is rediculous. If Bertuzzi should get banned then so should Moore and Havlat and every other player who has done something reckless that resulted in an injury. What Domi did to Neidermeyer was worse than what Bertuzzi did or intended to do. He punched him with a padded glove and landed on top of Moore and everyone else jumped on top of both of them.

Maybe Suter should be fined, suspended, or banned for putting Moore in that situation. He is NOT a key player, the game was long over scorewise and yet he sent him out where he knew he was in danger of getting his backend handed to him.

If players followed the code, there wouldn't have been a Havlat situation or a bucketful of other situations that led to fights or brawls. There would be some, but they would get handled immediately. Players aren't dying to fight anymore, they will take care of business if needed, but they're not the goons of 10 years ago. The cheap shots have increased with lottle or no reprocussions by the league. To not allow tough guys to take care of business and not taking care of bussiness themselves has created the situation.

Moore should have been suspended for his actions in the first place. 10 to 15 is more than adequate. Dealing with how the league has dealt with it needs to be a priority, not making an example of 1 player.

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03-10-2004, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
Getting beat up in life is NOT an assumed risk. In a hockey game where a couple weeks before you INTENTIONALLY elbow a player and knock him out, the talk since has been about getting revenge for what you did, IS an assumed risk.

Nobody knows if what Bertuzzi did injured Moore's neck or everyone piling on after. To say that Bertuzzi broke his neck is rediculous. If Bertuzzi should get banned then so should Moore and Havlat and every other player who has done something reckless that resulted in an injury. What Domi did to Neidermeyer was worse than what Bertuzzi did or intended to do. He punched him with a padded glove and landed on top of Moore and everyone else jumped on top of both of them.

Maybe Suter should be fined, suspended, or banned for putting Moore in that situation. He is NOT a key player, the game was long over scorewise and yet he sent him out where he knew he was in danger of getting his backend handed to him.

If players followed the code, there wouldn't have been a Havlat situation or a bucketful of other situations that led to fights or brawls. There would be some, but they would get handled immediately. Players aren't dying to fight anymore, they will take care of business if needed, but they're not the goons of 10 years ago. The cheap shots have increased with lottle or no reprocussions by the league. To not allow tough guys to take care of business and not taking care of bussiness themselves has created the situation.

Moore should have been suspended for his actions in the first place. 10 to 15 is more than adequate. Dealing with how the league has dealt with it needs to be a priority, not making an example of 1 player.
Moore should be suspended for hitting Naslund?

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03-10-2004, 06:09 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Moore should be suspended for hitting Naslund?
Do you understand how all this started?

It was his hit a couple of weeks ago that led to this. Any more questions?

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03-10-2004, 06:15 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
Getting beat up in life is NOT an assumed risk. In a hockey game where a couple weeks before you INTENTIONALLY elbow a player and knock him out, the talk since has been about getting revenge for what you did, IS an assumed risk.

Nobody knows if what Bertuzzi did injured Moore's neck or everyone piling on after. To say that Bertuzzi broke his neck is rediculous. If Bertuzzi should get banned then so should Moore and Havlat and every other player who has done something reckless that resulted in an injury. What Domi did to Neidermeyer was worse than what Bertuzzi did or intended to do. He punched him with a padded glove and landed on top of Moore and everyone else jumped on top of both of them.

Maybe Suter should be fined, suspended, or banned for putting Moore in that situation. He is NOT a key player, the game was long over scorewise and yet he sent him out where he knew he was in danger of getting his backend handed to him.

If players followed the code, there wouldn't have been a Havlat situation or a bucketful of other situations that led to fights or brawls. There would be some, but they would get handled immediately. Players aren't dying to fight anymore, they will take care of business if needed, but they're not the goons of 10 years ago. The cheap shots have increased with lottle or no reprocussions by the league. To not allow tough guys to take care of business and not taking care of bussiness themselves has created the situation.

Moore should have been suspended for his actions in the first place. 10 to 15 is more than adequate. Dealing with how the league has dealt with it needs to be a priority, not making an example of 1 player.
Boy, I don't know where to begin with this pile of dung.
Saying Bertuzzi broke his neck is ridiculous? Well, then how the hell do you think his neck broke? Spontaneous fracture? Even if it were the result of players piling on, it would still be Bertuzzi's fault. Would anybody have been piling on had Bertuzzi not blindsided Moore and taken him down to the ice? Of course not.
Who the heck is Suter? Gary Suter? Do you mean Granato? Yeah, it's all Granato's fault. Why he didn't know Bertuzzi would commit one of the worst atrocities in NHL history is beyond me. I guess it's a coach's job now to assume the other team will act horrendously and he should plan accordingly.
Moore should have been suspended? Even if we follow the illogic that his hit was somehow illegal, how would that have solved this? Would that have been enough for the Canuckleheads? Judging by their actions Monday night, the answer is clearly no.
I'm sorry, but you'll be sorely disappointed if you believe Bertuzzi is only gone for 10-15.

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03-10-2004, 07:19 PM
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lol! some great one liners there anonymous.

as far as the Moore hit on Naslund. I read that it was an open ice hit in which he got his elbow up on Naslund resulting in the cuncusion. BUT, I did not see it.

anyway, to be perfectly honest, had somebody went after Havlet like this after the Recchi incident and this result happened, I don't know if I would feel real bad for him(Havlet).

yeah I know it sounds horrible but I am being honest. Havlet could have really injured one of our player with that cheap ars high stick and this type of action would certainly make him think twice about every raising his stck to another player again.

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03-10-2004, 07:27 PM
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Bertuzzi needs to lay off the Roids. He has been just a little out of control for a few years now. This is just the first time his anger has gotten him into real big trouble.

I think the perception that the Flyers are a cheap shot dirty team is completely untrue, and unwarranted. This team is not a goon squad, and this isnt 1975. Of course we have a goon, but no one who pulls the crap Darcy Tucker or Bobby Holik (and soon Bertuzzi) have been known for. If you want a team that will take Bert and give him a "second chance", look to the Rangers or the Leafs.

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03-10-2004, 09:06 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrachlinexperience
Well I guess my last post was in bad taste, so here goes again.

I think Clarke would be a GM willing to give Bertuzzi a second chance. In fact, I believe there is a chance he'll make a pitch for him in the summer. Thoughts?
Much better.... I agree with you, if you look at Clarke's track record, he has brought in guys with "records" as marred as Bertuzzi's is now. However IIRC none of them were on the ice incidents, such as Craig MacTavish. My mind is blanking on a couple of other notables.

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03-10-2004, 09:22 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Much better.... I agree with you, if you look at Clarke's track record, he has brought in guys with "records" as marred as Bertuzzi's is now. However IIRC none of them were on the ice incidents, such as Craig MacTavish. My mind is blanking on a couple of other notables.
Tibbits, Stevens maybe

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03-10-2004, 10:03 PM
  #19
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JR,
I don't think your previous post was closed by Caniac because of the topic, but rather what could be considered "insensitive adjectives" that you used to describe a few people. Caniac does have the iron fist out from time to time, but he's probably right on that one - if that's why he closed it.

Anywho, I saw the Moore hit, and I didn't think it was worthy of even a penalty. I thought it was no dirtier than Stevens's hit on Lindros (although the checks were of a different nature). Naslund was extending for the puck, saw Moore, and tried to jump around him. It looked like Moore came up with the elbow because he slid his shoulder over to catch Naslund going around him, but he didn't catch him with his elbow. From what I saw, I don't really know what the fuss was about. Did Moore do something earlier in that game?

Carl and AJ, I think you both make several good points. On one hand, I can see how Bertuzzi's act can be considered criminal in nature. On the other, I can think of a plethora of reasons the NHL doesn't want or need the law involved in the game. What happens when an act of questionable intent causes a life-threatening or life-altering situation (e.g., paralysis)? That's where I think our secret friend's "assumed risk" suggestion might apply. I think we could all agree that the issue is really gray and hazy.

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03-10-2004, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfanofthepeg
Tibbits, Stevens maybe
Yes, Tibbetts is a good example, I forgot about him (not hard to do). Was the Kevins Stevens crack/hooker/pimp incident before or after he was a Flyer? If it was before, that is a good example as well. But, like I said... those were off ice incidents, and Bertuzzi's was on the ice. Then again, one can make an argument that Clarke breaking an ankle was comparable.

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03-10-2004, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Yes, Tibbetts is a good example, I forgot about him (not hard to do). Was the Kevins Stevens crack/hooker/pimp incident before or after he was a Flyer? If it was before, that is a good example as well. But, like I said... those were off ice incidents, and Bertuzzi's was on the ice. Then again, one can make an argument that Clarke breaking an ankle was comparable.
it was prior, the Stevens incidents I beleive

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03-14-2004, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Boy, I don't know where to begin with this pile of dung.
Saying Bertuzzi broke his neck is ridiculous? Well, then how the hell do you think his neck broke? Spontaneous fracture? Even if it were the result of players piling on, it would still be Bertuzzi's fault. Would anybody have been piling on had Bertuzzi not blindsided Moore and taken him down to the ice? Of course not.
Who the heck is Suter? Gary Suter? Do you mean Granato? Yeah, it's all Granato's fault. Why he didn't know Bertuzzi would commit one of the worst atrocities in NHL history is beyond me. I guess it's a coach's job now to assume the other team will act horrendously and he should plan accordingly.
Moore should have been suspended? Even if we follow the illogic that his hit was somehow illegal, how would that have solved this? Would that have been enough for the Canuckleheads? Judging by their actions Monday night, the answer is clearly no.
I'm sorry, but you'll be sorely disappointed if you believe Bertuzzi is only gone for 10-15.
Okay, I vented, had my post deleted and took a 3 day vacation courtesy of Gee Wally. I will now try to re-explain myself without the vitriol.

Let me start by once again pointing out how much I hate when posters who get so angry that their opinion has been questioned that they reply in the manner that this poster did. It's a name. I got mixed up with names. The funnier thing is I meant to write Sutter and even spelled that wrong, just another reason for a certain someone to give me a hard time about something that doesn't matter.

After re-reading my post I definitely mis-spoke. I had just come home from work and had family obligations and rushed it. I didn't see the Moore hit, everything I had heard was an intentional elbow was thrown. I've only seen it once since and it wasn't enough to form an opinion. Regardless of legal or illegal, he was a marked man and EVERYONE knew it. Peter Worrell said if the "bounty" was high enough he might even hit him(it's not a quote, just something I read).

I think the league was put in a very tough position on this because of the result. Not only did a player get seriously injured, society at large has come out against a league and sport that most will never be fans of, no matter what changes are made. It is a public relations nightmare for a league that is struggling to stay on TV nationally.

Unfortunately it's the result that has and will dictate the punishment, but more than that it seems to have forced, so far, the league to make an example of the player and not all the parties involved.

The players certainly have responsibility, but so do the coaches, refs, and league officials. Crawford apparently didn't do anything to keep his players focused, GRANATO (is that better?) dressed a non-impact player for a game that he knew was going to be EXTRA risky for Moore and put him in harms way after the game was already a lopsided victory for his team. Thus assumed risk is taken a step further than just playing the game itself.

The referees allow too much to go on without punishment that I'm fairly sure helped Bertuzzi to not believe what he was going to do to be all that bad. By that I am referring to the late hits after the whistle in front of the net or in the corners, or even the stuff that is let go during the scrums in both areas. I see a lot of cross checks and punches to the head with gloves on. Similar action, different results are the reason it's allowed it seems. The first player to lose his vision due to a face wash will, most likely, bear the brunt of every player who has ever face washed someone.

The league has the ultimate responsibilty because they put the referees out there and direct them in their duties. They allow the refs to allow the stuff that creates the atmosphere where one action is let go because no harm no foul, and another is punished severely for the harm it causes. Similar actions, different results. It's okay to punch a guy in a scrum or cross check along the boards or in front of the net and players get used to it. Then when that same action results in an injury everyone is blaming that single player. I believe they also needed to go to both coaches before that game and let them know they have a responsibility to the league to make sure things don't get out of hand.

In the Devils/Flyers game yesterday Brashear hit Brylin and Sean Brown went to his players defense by starting a fight with Brashear. Instant justice for the Devils. Unfortunately Brown was given an instigator penalty and 10 minute misconduct for defending a team mate. It had to be done, the 10 minute misconduct didn't. I could see a 2 min unsportsmanlike, but even that is stretching it. A team just shouldn't be punished for sticking up for itself in a face to face fight.

I'm in no way trying to defend Bertuzzi's actions, just the sport. In my 3 days off I thought quite a bit about it (since it was everywhere anyway) and Barry Melrose brought up some of my points (that's not easy to admit ) about how other sports are viewed. Baseball has bench clearing brawls and pitchers throw at batters heads, football and the pile-up and crushing hits, NASCAR and the bumping and forced crashes (which people gleefully admit is part of why they watch) basketball is just a cheapshot sport (and barely enough talent to make it interesting in my opinion).

The people bashing hockey will most likely never be fans no matter what changes are made. People say they can't see the puck or it's too violent. It's easy to see a soccer ball and there is little violence (on the field) and it's not popular. So why does hockey have so few fans? Because they didn't create a fan base before expanding. People in the US grow up playing baseball, football, and basketball on their own or in leagues. It's very common throughout the US. Only recently has hockey done anything in this (Philadelphia-New Jersey) area to make hockey more accessible to it's residents, and it's not even hockey who has done it, it's the Flyers themselves with all the Skate Zones they've built in that last few years.

Until there is a knowledgeable fan base, over-reaction to events like these will be commonplace and the league will try to appease people who will never care about the sport itself. It's the only thing they can do until they educate people in places that don't grow up with hockey, in my opinion.

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03-16-2004, 08:58 AM
  #23
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Do you understand how all this started?

It was his hit a couple of weeks ago that led to this. Any more questions?
So this is what's going to happen everytime a superstar gets checked into the boards?

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03-16-2004, 10:58 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous
Do you understand how all this started?

It was his hit a couple of weeks ago that led to this. Any more questions?
How should Moore be suspended for a clean hit? Any more stupid answers?

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03-16-2004, 11:21 AM
  #25
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I retracted that statement in my last post, sorry.

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