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Old
04-20-2009, 11:05 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
First of all, everyone who has knocked Lisin for his "work ethic" has not watched this guy enough. I have watched many games that he has been in the line up, and noticed that he works hard along the boards, and finishes hits. His defensive game is lacking, however it is not as bad as his +/- would indicate. He doesn't float -he comes back, he is just doesn't always know where to be all the time: this takes time and coaching to develop. Not to mention the horrible team he plays on does not help his +/- either.
2nd, I don't think there is a team in the league right now that is wrecking half as many prospects as phoenix. There is simply no direction with this team. At one point they had 3 goons in the line up, what does a last place team have any business with 3 goons on the team?
Uggghhhh. While I share some negative thoughts about having Gretzky as our coach we are one year removed from a point where everyone was praising the Coyote coaching staff for their development of players like Mueller, Michalek, etc.

Everyone wants to second guess the season we just had and let's be frank. With the exception of a one month period after the all-star break this team was overachieving. Yes, some of our younger players failed to reach offensive expectations. Turris being the most notable. That being said, Keith Yandle has cemented himself into our Top 4. Michalek stepped forward yet again and is clearly established as our #1 d man. Boedker didn't embarass himself at this level. Tikhonov looks to be the second coming of Mike Johnson.

That being said, Lisin's +/- is indicative of his play and lack of commitment to defense. I love his speed and hope he puts it together but you cannot strictly point the finger at the Coyote coaching staff when it comes to Lisin. Lisin has to own up and adjust his game accordingly.

Edit: I know it might seem like Phoenix management was overly harsh on Lisin this year. Keep in mind, they were not going to baby him any more after he left them in the lurch last year and bolted to the KHL only to rot on the bench and stall his development. Phoenix gave him a roster spot and made him earn that spot. They pushed him and still keep pushing him to be a better overall player. A better NHL player. Overall, Lisin's game did improve as season progressed and I agree that the logjam at the end of the season was unfair to Lisin as he sat as Phoenix gave the acquired players a long look. I fully expect Lisin to be a maintstay on the roster next year, provided he puts the effort in. It's a spot that he's going to have to earn each and every shift.


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Old
04-21-2009, 12:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by hbk View Post
Uggghhhh. While I share some negative thoughts about having Gretzky as our coach we are one year removed from a point where everyone was praising the Coyote coaching staff for their development of players like Mueller, Michalek, etc.

Everyone wants to second guess the season we just had and let's be frank. With the exception of a one month period after the all-star break this team was overachieving. Yes, some of our younger players failed to reach offensive expectations. Turris being the most notable. That being said, Keith Yandle has cemented himself into our Top 4. Michalek stepped forward yet again and is clearly established as our #1 d man. Boedker didn't embarass himself at this level. Tikhonov looks to be the second coming of Mike Johnson.

That being said, Lisin's +/- is indicative of his play and lack of commitment to defense. I love his speed and hope he puts it together but you cannot strictly point the finger at the Coyote coaching staff when it comes to Lisin. Lisin has to own up and adjust his game accordingly.

Edit: I know it might seem like Phoenix management was overly harsh on Lisin this year. Keep in mind, they were not going to baby him any more after he left them in the lurch last year and bolted to the KHL only to rot on the bench and stall his development. Phoenix gave him a roster spot and made him earn that spot. They pushed him and still keep pushing him to be a better overall player. A better NHL player. Overall, Lisin's game did improve as season progressed and I agree that the logjam at the end of the season was unfair to Lisin as he sat as Phoenix gave the acquired players a long look. I fully expect Lisin to be a maintstay on the roster next year, provided he puts the effort in. It's a spot that he's going to have to earn each and every shift.
Yesterday, I'd have disagreed. But today I listened to the Maloney interview on Coyotes.com when he described Lisin's season as a "breakout" year. If he was attempting to blow smoke in hopes of getting a bite in a deal, we need a new GM. A team would only have to look at the healthy scratches to call BS on Maloney. I do believe Lisin is safe for next year, and that's great news. I also think it amplifies the need for a physical presence either to center or play opposite wing to Lisin on Lisin's line

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04-21-2009, 01:31 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hbk View Post
That being said, Lisin's +/- is indicative of his play and lack of commitment to defense. I love his speed and hope he puts it together but you cannot strictly point the finger at the Coyote coaching staff when it comes to Lisin. Lisin has to own up and adjust his game accordingly.
I just cannot agree with that at all.

As I have pointed out before, I have seen Lisin work in the defensive zone. He needs coaching and he is not getting it.

Do you really think that Gretzky helped Michalek or Yandle become the players they have become? Maybe he did, but I see nothing to support that assertion.

As I have pointed out in the past, early in this season I saw Lisin trying too hard to play defense and taking unfortunately weak penalties for hooking, slashing and other stick checking infractions as if he was trying to emulate Doan's game and did not have the timing down or just did not have Doan's respect with the refs. Then he gets benched for taking too many minors. He gets back in the game and is gun shy about playing aggressive defense and now he does not try hard enough. Lisin has outstanding speed and remarkable offensive creativity. He also looks to me like a player in need of a coach which he may never find in Phoenix, much to my incredible disappointment. A good coach could have helped him.

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Edit: I know it might seem like Phoenix management was overly harsh on Lisin this year. Keep in mind, they were not going to baby him any more after he left them in the lurch last year and bolted to the KHL only to rot on the bench and stall his development. Phoenix gave him a roster spot and made him earn that spot. They pushed him and still keep pushing him to be a better overall player. A better NHL player. Overall, Lisin's game did improve as season progressed and I agree that the logjam at the end of the season was unfair to Lisin as he sat as Phoenix gave the acquired players a long look. I fully expect Lisin to be a maintstay on the roster next year, provided he puts the effort in. It's a spot that he's going to have to earn each and every shift.
Really? Why did they "baby" Tikhonov? He is reported to have received for the same agreement Lisin received and it was almost as if the Coyotes were afraid to demote him. This constant reference to Lisin returning to Russia is very disappointing to me. He had an agreement and he lived up to the agreement. Afterward he returned to North America and stuck to it. At this point it is hard for me to be anything but entirely dismissive of this argument. It is a sham.

As for the second coming of Mike Johnson, I will buy that as soon as I see some offense, or a couple of decent passes, out of Tikhonov. This was Tikhonov's rookie season and he played okay, but he did not look like he really belonged in the NHL to me. I saw a kid that got the "baby" treatment because the Coyotes were afraid to demote him ("conditioning" assignment aside).

The lack of consistency in the way players are treated is a sad reality for Coyotes fans and it really bothers me. I am not a Tikhonov hater. He looks like a tweener to me so far though, lacking the physical abilities of a good checker and the hands of a good offensive player. If his hands ever develop to the speed of the NHL game he might have a career as a second line player with above average defensive play. He has shown flashes of his ability to make moves in the offensive zone, but not often enough to justify playing as much as he did. I just do not see how throwing minutes at Tikhonov this season can be justified given how Lisin has been dealt with during his short career.

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04-21-2009, 03:09 AM
  #54
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The difference between Tikhonov this year and Lisin in the '06-07 season is then we had Nolan, Roenick, Laraque, Comrie, Nagy, Saprykin, Sjoostrom, Perrault and Gratton. I didn't like Lisin bolting then and I think his game suffered for it. But unlike 06-07, there was no one this year to take Tikhonov's place who could, theoretically, help get us to the playoffs. In hindsight, those vets in 2006 weren't the answer either, but hindsight is 20/20. Maybe keeping Tik up here cutting his teeth in the NHL will work out in the long run.

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04-21-2009, 07:20 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
I just cannot agree with that at all.

As I have pointed out before, I have seen Lisin work in the defensive zone. He needs coaching and he is not getting it.

Do you really think that Gretzky helped Michalek or Yandle become the players they have become? Maybe he did, but I see nothing to support that assertion.

As I have pointed out in the past, early in this season I saw Lisin trying too hard to play defense and taking unfortunately weak penalties for hooking, slashing and other stick checking infractions as if he was trying to emulate Doan's game and did not have the timing down or just did not have Doan's respect with the refs. Then he gets benched for taking too many minors. He gets back in the game and is gun shy about playing aggressive defense and now he does not try hard enough. Lisin has outstanding speed and remarkable offensive creativity. He also looks to me like a player in need of a coach which he may never find in Phoenix, much to my incredible disappointment. A good coach could have helped him.


Really? Why did they "baby" Tikhonov? He is reported to have received for the same agreement Lisin received and it was almost as if the Coyotes were afraid to demote him. This constant reference to Lisin returning to Russia is very disappointing to me. He had an agreement and he lived up to the agreement. Afterward he returned to North America and stuck to it. At this point it is hard for me to be anything but entirely dismissive of this argument. It is a sham.

As for the second coming of Mike Johnson, I will buy that as soon as I see some offense, or a couple of decent passes, out of Tikhonov. This was Tikhonov's rookie season and he played okay, but he did not look like he really belonged in the NHL to me. I saw a kid that got the "baby" treatment because the Coyotes were afraid to demote him ("conditioning" assignment aside).

The lack of consistency in the way players are treated is a sad reality for Coyotes fans and it really bothers me. I am not a Tikhonov hater. He looks like a tweener to me so far though, lacking the physical abilities of a good checker and the hands of a good offensive player. If his hands ever develop to the speed of the NHL game he might have a career as a second line player with above average defensive play. He has shown flashes of his ability to make moves in the offensive zone, but not often enough to justify playing as much as he did. I just do not see how throwing minutes at Tikhonov this season can be justified given how Lisin has been dealt with during his short career.
^ This.

Tikh is a good example of the anti-Lisin sentiment. I also watched Mueller's lazy butt not backchecking this year and he didn't feel the brunt of the coaching staff.

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04-21-2009, 09:48 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
The lack of consistency in the way players are treated is a sad reality for Coyotes fans and it really bothers me. I am not a Tikhonov hater. He looks like a tweener to me so far though, lacking the physical abilities of a good checker and the hands of a good offensive player. If his hands ever develop to the speed of the NHL game he might have a career as a second line player with above average defensive play. He has shown flashes of his ability to make moves in the offensive zone, but not often enough to justify playing as much as he did. I just do not see how throwing minutes at Tikhonov this season can be justified given how Lisin has been dealt with during his short career.
I disagree with your assessment of Tikhonov. He has good hands. His problem is he's always looking down at the puck. Besides getting consistently laid out, he misses too many opportunities to create scoring chances because his head's not up.

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04-21-2009, 10:23 AM
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So far Tikhonov looks like another "meh" player - not bad, not great. Which is not very diappointing for an 18 old rookie. But I haven't seen much from him that point towards anything better than a Saprykin-type player. Decent hands, works hard, but leaving you wanting more. Ultimately, a career 3rd liner.

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04-21-2009, 11:04 AM
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One thing that nobody in this thread has is first-hand exposure to Lisin outside of an actual game.

We don't know how he is in the room, how he plays in practice, how he applies himself to drills, etc. We all know about his amazing offensive ability but very little about his mental preparation or attitude.

It's pretty easy to blame the coaches - especially Gretzky - for treating Enver horribly. But then they did the same thing with LeNeveu... anyone know where LeNeveu is now that he's not being horribly abused by our coaching staff?

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04-21-2009, 11:09 AM
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I see your point but it works just the same the other way. One could even argue that the coaches ruined Leneveu so badly that he was irreparable.

The fact is none of us know what's up. We can only go on what we see. At any rate, though, if Lisin has a bad attitude, it's part of the coaches' job to fix that.

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04-21-2009, 11:25 AM
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At any rate, though, if Lisin has a bad attitude, it's part of the coaches' job to fix that.
I just don't think coaches are any more capable of changing the fundamental attitude of a player than a wife is capable of changing her husband or vice versa.

Eventually either the team is going to live with Enver's shortcomings or they're going to trade him. But there's no coach that's going to fix or change Lisin - there are only going to be coaches who interact with him such that he feels comfortable with them (see: Jokinen, Olli).

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04-21-2009, 12:04 PM
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I'm not going to put the pressure soley on the coaching, but in general this organization has done very poorly in developing players.

Since 1998's draft, here are the players that the Coyotes drafted that have seen any substantial (75+ games) NHL action:
1998: Ossi Vaananen
2000: Krys Kolanos
2001: Fred Sjostrom
2002: Ben Eager (not with Phoenix), Matt Jones
2004: Dan Winnik, Enver Lisin, Blake Wheeler (not with Phoenix)
2005: Martin Hanzal, Keith Yandle
2006: Peter Mueller
2008: Mikael Boedker

That is 12 players in 10 years, and two of those players never developed in Phoenix's system, so it's really 10 players in 10 years. Of those players you have a guy like Kolanos that can be excluded due to the serious injury that may have hampered his development. Otherwise you have depth players until the past few years when they got Hanzal, Yandle, Mueller and Boedker. In my opinion, all of those players are still young enough I don't think you can count them as successful developments -- unless they prove to be better players than they are today. In a couple of years if they are 3rd liners then they will have been failed developments too.

If you compare that to another team that has followed a similar path as the Coyotes in that time span, the Los Angeles Kings, here is how they look:
2008: Doughty
2007: Simmonds
2006: Kopitar
2005: Brown, Tambelleni,
2002: Grebeshkov
2001: Steckel, Cammilari, Bednar, Huet
2000: Frolov, Lilja, Visnovsky
1999: Kaberle, McGrattan, Parros
1998: Biron, Papineau

18 players in 10 years, and just like the Coyotes not all of them are developed by the Kings, and some of them flopped, but the Kings still had some solid guys like Visnovsky, Frolov, Kopitar, Brown, Cammilari if nothing else.

The Coyotes need to start producing a solid player out of every draft before things are going to turn around, even if it is their 1st round pick -- that's better than they have done historically. In fairness, the past 4 drafts for the Coyotes look to be turning the corner but you can't judge those drafts until the player has proven his potential. Oleg Tverdovsky was an all-star at one point in his career, but he never had the longevity in the NHL to be considered a success. I'd hate to see someone like Keith Yandle follow in those footsteps.

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04-21-2009, 01:13 PM
  #62
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I disagree with your assessment of Tikhonov. He has good hands. His problem is he's always looking down at the puck. Besides getting consistently laid out, he misses too many opportunities to create scoring chances because his head's not up.
His hands aren't bad, but they are not NHL speed yet. He has made a few moves, but nothing even remotely consistent. I don't want to pick on him too much as an individual, but unfortunately he draws a pretty direct parallel to Lisin.

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04-21-2009, 01:25 PM
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His hands aren't bad, but they are not NHL speed yet. He has made a few moves, but nothing even remotely consistent. I don't want to pick on him too much as an individual, but unfortunately he draws a pretty direct parallel to Lisin.
I dunno. It's tough for me to compare Tikhonov with Lisin other than the fact that they're both essentially Russian.

Tikhonov seems like a totally different player to me than Lisin is. He's more of a hard working grinder type than a guy with offensive flash like Lisin. He shows his youth more than Lisin, for sure, but I think there's more potential upside in terms of development in Tikhonov than Lisin; Viktor seems to have a lot of room to improve.

Lisin, to me, isn't in need of much improvement per se - I don't think the flaws in his defensive game are going to get much better without taking the edge off of his offensive game. In my mind the best thing for Lisin would be for the Coyotes staff to stop trying to make him a two-way player and use him like he should be used - as a major offensive threat. Lisin is a pure sniper and has amazing offensive gifts that are already NHL-ready - so his usage comes down to a philosophical issue and not a developmental one. Namely, that Gretzky & co. seem to want him to work both ends of the ice instead of play as a specialist; the latter is Lisin's natural game while the former is a foreign situation for him.

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04-21-2009, 01:28 PM
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I dunno. It's tough for me to compare Tikhonov with Lisin other than the fact that they're both essentially Russian.
And they both discussed heading back to Russia instead of playing in the AHL but were treated differently as a result.

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04-21-2009, 01:57 PM
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Gretsky should be able to relate to Lisin. Gretsky was a pure offensive player and did his share of floating around the centre ice line. He was a minus for his whole career, which is hard to imagine with all the empty net goals he scored (PP goals don't count)
Lisin will learn the defensive part of the game from someone who knows how to play defensively - not Gretsky. Gretsky was overly harsh on Lisin by sitting him out for weeks at a time, in my opinion.

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04-21-2009, 02:00 PM
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And they both discussed heading back to Russia instead of playing in the AHL but were treated differently as a result.
That's the third time I've heard this said about Tikhonov. Can you please provide me a link or the location of this quote from Tikhonov so I can see it for myself? Because it directly contradicts everything I've heard about - and from - the kid.

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04-21-2009, 02:06 PM
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Gretsky should be able to relate to Lisin. Gretsky was a pure offensive player and did his share of floating around the centre ice line. He was a minus for his whole career, which is hard to imagine with all the empty net goals he scored (PP goals don't count)
Lisin will learn the defensive part of the game from someone who knows how to play defensively - not Gretsky. Gretsky was overly harsh on Lisin by sitting him out for weeks at a time, in my opinion.
Actually Gretzdy was a +518 for his career, not that I'm a huge TGO fan.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/...74&hubname=nhl

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04-21-2009, 02:11 PM
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Actually Gretzdy was a +518 for his career, not that I'm a huge TGO fan.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/...74&hubname=nhl
Sorry, he was a minus 8 of the last 10 years of his career (as bad as minus 25)

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04-21-2009, 02:15 PM
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Lisin, to me, isn't in need of much improvement per se - I don't think the flaws in his defensive game are going to get much better without taking the edge off of his offensive game. In my mind the best thing for Lisin would be for the Coyotes staff to stop trying to make him a two-way player and use him like he should be used - as a major offensive threat. Lisin is a pure sniper and has amazing offensive gifts that are already NHL-ready - so his usage comes down to a philosophical issue and not a developmental one. Namely, that Gretzky & co. seem to want him to work both ends of the ice instead of play as a specialist; the latter is Lisin's natural game while the former is a foreign situation for him.
This reminds me of the former coach of the Caps Glen Hanlon who was always going on about how he envisions Ovechkin more as Sakic type of player than a goal scorer ( ). Yeah...they fired that guy, brought in Boudreu who completely changed the philosophy. He essentially told everyone do what they are good at and played up their strengths. What a concept!

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04-21-2009, 02:18 PM
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Sorry, he was a minus 8 of the last 10 years of his career (as bad as minus 25)
He also had season of +98,+81,+76.......well you get the idea.

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04-21-2009, 05:02 PM
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So far Tikhonov looks like another "meh" player - Ultimately, a career 3rd liner.
A bit premature, don't you think? He's played one season in this league, on one of the worst teams in it. Maybe we should give him a few more games before writing him off. Afterall, he was just drafted last summer.

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04-21-2009, 05:24 PM
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A bit premature, don't you think? He's played one season in this league, on one of the worst teams in it. Maybe we should give him a few more games before writing him off. Afterall, he was just drafted last summer.
You are right it is too early to writing Tiki or Lisin off. We are rebuilding, part of rebuilding is having patience with all of the players who have potential and are a good fit on the team. One of the mistakes that GMDM made this season is going in to the season with too big of a gap between the young players and the vets. I think the moves he made at the deadline were exactally what we needed. Upshall and Lombardi were the perfect fit because of their age and experience.

We need to add another vet at forward to take some pressure off of Doan. And another d-man preferably in the same age and experiance as Lombardi and Upshall to bridge the gap between Jovo/Sauer and Yandle/whichever youngster beats out Hale for that final spot.

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04-21-2009, 05:27 PM
  #73
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So far Tikhonov looks like another "meh" player - not bad, not great. Which is not very diappointing for an 18 old rookie. But I haven't seen much from him that point towards anything better than a Saprykin-type player. Decent hands, works hard, but leaving you wanting more. Ultimately, a career 3rd liner.
Tikh is actually 20 soon to be 21 but still an NHL rookie nonetheless.

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04-21-2009, 05:59 PM
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I just cannot agree with that at all.

As I have pointed out before, I have seen Lisin work in the defensive zone. He needs coaching and he is not getting it.

Do you really think that Gretzky helped Michalek or Yandle become the players they have become? Maybe he did, but I see nothing to support that assertion.

As I have pointed out in the past, early in this season I saw Lisin trying too hard to play defense and taking unfortunately weak penalties for hooking, slashing and other stick checking infractions as if he was trying to emulate Doan's game and did not have the timing down or just did not have Doan's respect with the refs. Then he gets benched for taking too many minors. He gets back in the game and is gun shy about playing aggressive defense and now he does not try hard enough. Lisin has outstanding speed and remarkable offensive creativity. He also looks to me like a player in need of a coach which he may never find in Phoenix, much to my incredible disappointment. A good coach could have helped him.


Really? Why did they "baby" Tikhonov? He is reported to have received for the same agreement Lisin received and it was almost as if the Coyotes were afraid to demote him. This constant reference to Lisin returning to Russia is very disappointing to me. He had an agreement and he lived up to the agreement. Afterward he returned to North America and stuck to it. At this point it is hard for me to be anything but entirely dismissive of this argument. It is a sham.

As for the second coming of Mike Johnson, I will buy that as soon as I see some offense, or a couple of decent passes, out of Tikhonov. This was Tikhonov's rookie season and he played okay, but he did not look like he really belonged in the NHL to me. I saw a kid that got the "baby" treatment because the Coyotes were afraid to demote him ("conditioning" assignment aside).

The lack of consistency in the way players are treated is a sad reality for Coyotes fans and it really bothers me. I am not a Tikhonov hater. He looks like a tweener to me so far though, lacking the physical abilities of a good checker and the hands of a good offensive player. If his hands ever develop to the speed of the NHL game he might have a career as a second line player with above average defensive play. He has shown flashes of his ability to make moves in the offensive zone, but not often enough to justify playing as much as he did. I just do not see how throwing minutes at Tikhonov this season can be justified given how Lisin has been dealt with during his short career.
Excellent post,your comments are right on.

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04-21-2009, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
I just cannot agree with that at all.

As I have pointed out before, I have seen Lisin work in the defensive zone. He needs coaching and he is not getting it.

Do you really think that Gretzky helped Michalek or Yandle become the players they have become? Maybe he did, but I see nothing to support that assertion.

As I have pointed out in the past, early in this season I saw Lisin trying too hard to play defense and taking unfortunately weak penalties for hooking, slashing and other stick checking infractions as if he was trying to emulate Doan's game and did not have the timing down or just did not have Doan's respect with the refs. Then he gets benched for taking too many minors. He gets back in the game and is gun shy about playing aggressive defense and now he does not try hard enough. Lisin has outstanding speed and remarkable offensive creativity. He also looks to me like a player in need of a coach which he may never find in Phoenix, much to my incredible disappointment. A good coach could have helped him.


Really? Why did they "baby" Tikhonov? He is reported to have received for the same agreement Lisin received and it was almost as if the Coyotes were afraid to demote him. This constant reference to Lisin returning to Russia is very disappointing to me. He had an agreement and he lived up to the agreement. Afterward he returned to North America and stuck to it. At this point it is hard for me to be anything but entirely dismissive of this argument. It is a sham.

As for the second coming of Mike Johnson, I will buy that as soon as I see some offense, or a couple of decent passes, out of Tikhonov. This was Tikhonov's rookie season and he played okay, but he did not look like he really belonged in the NHL to me. I saw a kid that got the "baby" treatment because the Coyotes were afraid to demote him ("conditioning" assignment aside).

The lack of consistency in the way players are treated is a sad reality for Coyotes fans and it really bothers me. I am not a Tikhonov hater. He looks like a tweener to me so far though, lacking the physical abilities of a good checker and the hands of a good offensive player. If his hands ever develop to the speed of the NHL game he might have a career as a second line player with above average defensive play. He has shown flashes of his ability to make moves in the offensive zone, but not often enough to justify playing as much as he did. I just do not see how throwing minutes at Tikhonov this season can be justified given how Lisin has been dealt with during his short career.
At this point I wish I hadn't made reference to Tikhonov at all because all of a sudden this became a thread about Tikhonov instead of Lisin.

If Yandle and Michalek improved under Gretzky's watch then how can we not give him at least some degree of credit for it? If we can criticize Gretzky in relation to Lisin we have to give credit where credit is due on other players who prospered.

Someone else has made reference to this. We don't know how much time they spend going over video, explaining processes. We can only assume that at some point someone has sat Lisin down and provided some instruction to be a more responsible and consistent player. To think otherwise is more ludicrous in my opinion.

I'm not even an advocate of Gretzky staying on as a coach. I just think we're overlooking some of the positive things that have happened while he's been here.

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