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04-21-2009, 06:47 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
That's the third time I've heard this said about Tikhonov. Can you please provide me a link or the location of this quote from Tikhonov so I can see it for myself? Because it directly contradicts everything I've heard about - and from - the kid.
It was agreed, prior to his signing a contract with us, that if he were demoted to the AHL, he was free to go back to the KHL. He was probably making ten times whatever his AHL compensation would be, back in the KHL. It would be stupid for a Russian kid not to try and get an agreement like that. He's comfortable in either country, so why not?

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04-21-2009, 07:00 PM
  #77
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Not to throw this any more off topic, but I'm going to anyways...lol. I think people need to be a little easy on their assessments of Tikhonov. The guy just finished his rookie year, and IMO had a pretty solid one. He's raw, but I see a very good hockey player that's going to compliment our forwards for years to come. My comparison of Tik would be Sergei Brylin, and not because they're both russian. Solid 2nd liner, but would be dropped to the 3rd line on a team with good depth. Kills penalties and never quits on the play. Tik has underrated offensive skills, and is above average defensively. I believe he's going to surprise a lot of people in the long run.


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04-21-2009, 07:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
Not to throw this any more off topic, but I'm going to anyways...lol. I think people need to be a little easy on their assessments of Tikhonov. The guy just finished his rookie year, and IMO had a pretty solid one.
To be clear, my intention was not to imply that Tikhonov is a bad player, a bad prospect or should be given up on. He did not look ready for the NHL to me though, and looked like a player -- much like Turris -- that ought to spend some significant time in the AHL and build up to the NHL. I wanted to draw contrast to the fact that despite not being NHL ready, he was not demoted and played a lot of games while Lisin was bounced around and treated completely differently.

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04-21-2009, 07:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
It was agreed, prior to his signing a contract with us, that if he were demoted to the AHL, he was free to go back to the KHL. He was probably making ten times whatever his AHL compensation would be, back in the KHL. It would be stupid for a Russian kid not to try and get an agreement like that. He's comfortable in either country, so why not?
Okay, I never saw that clause but I'll take your word for it. Still, Tikhonov was absolutely NOT a flight risk at any point - every uttered word I've heard from him was to the effect that he'd rather sweep bathrooms at the local McDonald's if it meant playing in the NHL versus the KHL.

The difference between Lisin and Tikhonov in terms of return to Russia can be traced to where they were raised. Tikhonov considers himself a California kid, not a Russian. Lisin is far more likely to be homesick for his motherland.

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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
To be clear, my intention was not to imply that Tikhonov is a bad player, a bad prospect or should be given up on. He did not look ready for the NHL to me though, and looked like a player -- much like Turris -- that ought to spend some significant time in the AHL and build up to the NHL. I wanted to draw contrast to the fact that despite not being NHL ready, he was not demoted and played a lot of games while Lisin was bounced around and treated completely differently.
I would tend to agree with this re: Tikhonov and the AHL. But again, it goes back to the coaching staff's (possible) philosophy that Tikhonov could learn more at the NHL level than Lisin. I honestly think that the Coyotes' coaching staff don't consider Lisin to be a prospect player anymore (although given the paucity of his NHL service time I'd question that), which might explain why he got scratched in lieu of being returned to San Antonio.

I'm also wondering if, by having Enver stay with the big club instead of going back to the bus leagues, they weren't worried that he'd be more insulted with the demotion than sitting out games and still collecting his significantly higher paycheck from the Coyotes.

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04-21-2009, 07:30 PM
  #80
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I don't think it is a clause, but rather just an understanding. It was made known, and agreed upon, so everyone's cards were on the table, and nobody would be taken by suprise.

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04-21-2009, 07:39 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
The difference between Lisin and Tikhonov in terms of return to Russia can be traced to where they were raised. Tikhonov considers himself a California kid, not a Russian. Lisin is far more likely to be homesick for his motherland.
I am not sure where you get this. I understand that Tikhonov grew up primarily in the bay area. That does not mean he is going to pass up the chance to play in the KHL had he been assigned to the AHL. Lisin has played far more games in the AHL than Tikhonov. Tikhonov had one conditioning assignment after injury. It seemed to me they were trying to keep Tikhonov away from the AHL so he wouldn't bolt because the understanding was that he would just like Lisin did during his rookie season. They had the same agreement.


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I would tend to agree with this re: Tikhonov and the AHL. But again, it goes back to the coaching staff's (possible) philosophy that Tikhonov could learn more at the NHL level than Lisin. I honestly think that the Coyotes' coaching staff don't consider Lisin to be a prospect player anymore (although given the paucity of his NHL service time I'd question that), which might explain why he got scratched in lieu of being returned to San Antonio.

I'm also wondering if, by having Enver stay with the big club instead of going back to the bus leagues, they weren't worried that he'd be more insulted with the demotion than sitting out games and still collecting his significantly higher paycheck from the Coyotes.
I am not sure if I understand what you mean here. Lisin played 58 games in the AHL 07-08 and started 08-09 in the AHL. Tikhonov did one, brief "conditioning assignment" after an injury which is a process more typically used on veterans that are not waiver exempt.

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04-21-2009, 08:07 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
One thing that nobody in this thread has is first-hand exposure to Lisin outside of an actual game...
I did speak with a couple of other season ticket holders who regularly attended the morning skates and both are Lisin fans.They both said, however, that during his stretch of healthy scratches he wasn't working hard in practice at all. Going through the motions and participating, but not doing anything that would make him stand out to the coaches. Maybe he's a moper, I don't know.

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04-21-2009, 10:49 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
To be clear, my intention was not to imply that Tikhonov is a bad player, a bad prospect or should be given up on. He did not look ready for the NHL to me though, and looked like a player -- much like Turris -- that ought to spend some significant time in the AHL and build up to the NHL. I wanted to draw contrast to the fact that despite not being NHL ready, he was not demoted and played a lot of games while Lisin was bounced around and treated completely differently.

Don't worry, I didn't get that out of your message at all. I completely agree with you that Tik should not have played in the NHL this year. The guy almost got his head taken off every game. I was just pointing out that despite him not being completely ready, I did see some very encouraging things that lead me to believe that he is going to be a very solid player on both sides of the puck. The original comment was not directed to anyone particular, just towards the impatient people who seem to get so down on the raw young players we do have, example being Mueller.

I think we can all agree on, that Lisin is being mishandled as a player. Him not being the only one IMO.

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04-21-2009, 11:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
I did speak with a couple of other season ticket holders who regularly attended the morning skates and both are Lisin fans.They both said, however, that during his stretch of healthy scratches he wasn't working hard in practice at all. Going through the motions and participating, but not doing anything that would make him stand out to the coaches. Maybe he's a moper, I don't know.
I'm a huge Lisin fan as well, and I know exactly what that couple is talking about. During the drills, Lisin seems less focused and does quite a bit of wondering out there. He chooses to cherry pick rather than play defense when the team scrimmages, and he hardly ever follows up his shots. There's a lot to dislike about the way he practices. That being said, I believe that has more to do with the lack of communication, than it has to do with Lisin being a headcase, or whatever you want to call it. I was always taught to practice as hard as you would play in a game. As a coach it would be hard for me to put in a guy that doesn't seem as focused, when you have several other guys working their tail off to just get into the lineup.

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04-22-2009, 10:14 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
I am not sure where you get this. I understand that Tikhonov grew up primarily in the bay area. That does not mean he is going to pass up the chance to play in the KHL had he been assigned to the AHL. Lisin has played far more games in the AHL than Tikhonov. Tikhonov had one conditioning assignment after injury. It seemed to me they were trying to keep Tikhonov away from the AHL so he wouldn't bolt because the understanding was that he would just like Lisin did during his rookie season. They had the same agreement.
Where I get it is from several interviews with Tikhonov before and during this past season where he was asked specifically if he was going to go back to play in Russia if he didn't make the Coyotes' roster or if he was demoted during the season. He rather clearly said he had no interest in playing in Russia in general or the KHL in particular and said he would do whatever he needed to do to play in the NHL. He stated as much repeatedly.

Now, like I said I didn't hear or see anything about a release clause/understanding that Tikhonov could go to the KHL in lieu of playing in the AHL, so I can't comment on that. But the idea that Tikhonov was or is a flight risk to Russia is, to me, completely unbelievable based on what he himself said.

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04-22-2009, 10:17 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
I'm a huge Lisin fan as well, and I know exactly what that couple is talking about. During the drills, Lisin seems less focused and does quite a bit of wondering out there. He chooses to cherry pick rather than play defense when the team scrimmages, and he hardly ever follows up his shots. There's a lot to dislike about the way he practices. That being said, I believe that has more to do with the lack of communication, than it has to do with Lisin being a headcase, or whatever you want to call it. I was always taught to practice as hard as you would play in a game. As a coach it would be hard for me to put in a guy that doesn't seem as focused, when you have several other guys working their tail off to just get into the lineup.
...which is why Lisin sat and Hale played.

Lisin seems to be one of those "prodigy-level" players who exist somewhat in a la-la land unless they're applying themselves to something. I've seen this firsthand since one of my kids is the same way. This type of person is exceptionally gifted and/or intelligent, but unless they interact with something or someone that can engage them and help them focus they tend to wander and even lollygag. Once they're on task, though, look the heck out.

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04-22-2009, 10:24 AM
  #87
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While I do not expect Lisin to develop the way some of you do many of the comments can be summed up by "poor coaching". It is Gretzky's JOB to get the best out of his players. Put them in a position to excel.

While we credited Gretzky last year with the way he worked Mueller and Hanzal into the lineup this year he repeatedly made odd decisions. Benching players after they played a good game. Breaking up effective line combos. etc etc.

I think the worry for Lisin supporters will be where does he fit in this young lineup (regardless of who the coach is) especially if the Coyotes add a veteran scorer?

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04-22-2009, 01:20 PM
  #88
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Maloney repeatedly references speed and skill, speed and skill...I just don't see how he doesn't sign Lisin based on that alone. Lisin IS speed and skill.

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04-22-2009, 03:28 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Maloney repeatedly references speed and skill, speed and skill...I just don't see how he doesn't sign Lisin based on that alone. Lisin IS speed and skill.
And from Z's blog, it sounds like Maloney intends to sign him, to a 2-way contract at least:
Booster Meeting - Special Guest Don Maloney
Quote:
Truthfully Enver got a little shortchanged by us having so many good young forwards. He got pushed down by default. He did’nt have a great start, when he did get back up he didn’t have a great game. But the second time he came up, he did a good job for us. We need him in the lineup, his speed and shot and ability to draw penalties are all great assets. It will depend on him, we’d like to get a fair 2 way deal in place for him.

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04-22-2009, 03:58 PM
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If I were Lisin, I don't think I'd settle on a two-way. I'd probably say one-way, trade, or KHL. Reason being that I'm sure there are quite a few NHL teams that would be more than happy to give him a one-way deal, and not "shortchange" him at every turn.

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04-22-2009, 04:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
If I were Lisin, I don't think I'd settle on a two-way. I'd probably say one-way, trade, or KHL. Reason being that I'm sure there are quite a few NHL teams that would be more than happy to give him a one-way deal, and not "shortchange" him at every turn.
I would hope having the contract one-way or two-way is a point of negotiation. The problem of him already having been "shortchanged" and continuing to be "shortchanged" is less likely to work itself out. Unfortunately for the Coyotes, Lisin may well be better off going to another team.

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04-22-2009, 05:02 PM
  #92
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Unfortunately for the Coyotes, Lisin may well be better off going to another team.
He might. He may only flourish on another team that can appreciate him better than we apparently do.

Then again, the hoary old maxim about trades in professional sports is that a change of scenery only serves to temporarily mask a player's deficiencies or quirks. For every misused Phil Esposito there's a Daniel Carcillo, in other words...

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04-22-2009, 07:55 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Maloney repeatedly references speed and skill, speed and skill...I just don't see how he doesn't sign Lisin based on that alone. Lisin IS speed and skill.
He even commented that this season was a "breakout year" for Lisin. Maybe he and TGO differ on Lisin. Seems to me if you're the GM and say a guy had a breakout year in hopes of attracting some interest in moving him, other GMs simply look at the healthy scratches and say, "WTF?" I think Lisin comes back, if he's willing to sign a two-way deal.

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04-22-2009, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
if he's willing to sign a two-way deal.
...and that's probably the kicker.

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04-22-2009, 08:22 PM
  #95
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If I were Lisin, I don't think I'd settle on a two-way. I'd probably say one-way, trade, or KHL. Reason being that I'm sure there are quite a few NHL teams that would be more than happy to give him a one-way deal, and not "shortchange" him at every turn.
Isn't there some sort of contract where it's two way but if you're sent down you still get your NHL salary?

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04-22-2009, 08:24 PM
  #96
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The only thing that differentiates a two-way contract from a one-way is the fact that your salary is lessened if you are demoted to the NHL. A two-way contract where you're paid equally in both leagues is a one-way contract.

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04-22-2009, 08:40 PM
  #97
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...and that's probably the kicker.
and in the current market it may be the best offer Lisin gets.

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04-22-2009, 08:43 PM
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The only thing that differentiates a two-way contract from a one-way is the fact that your salary is lessened if you are demoted to the NHL. A two-way contract where you're paid equally in both leagues is a one-way contract.
Oh I thought there was something in there about having to go through waivers if sent down on a one-way contract but not if it's a two-way contract.

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04-22-2009, 08:51 PM
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Oh I thought there was something in there about having to go through waivers if sent down on a one-way contract but not if it's a two-way contract.
My understanding is waivers can still be involved on a two-way contract based on the player's age when he first signed his NHLcontract, or the number of NHL games he's played in. Not sure what the current CBA says.

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04-23-2009, 09:01 AM
  #100
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Well the coyotes would be foolish not to sign him, as he was there 5th leading goal getter and played barely more than half the games.

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