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Old
04-03-2009, 10:06 PM
  #1
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TRADE Phaneuf?

hehe if there's a trade Iginla thread (which I think is total BS) then there definitely needs to be a trade Phaneuf thread... You can read my opinion of Phaneuf on many other threads... (including this one: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=105)

Comments please.

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04-03-2009, 10:15 PM
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You don't trade away 23-year old, #1 defenceman. Phaneuf has had an up-and-down year, but he's still young and improving. Tonight, he just looked gas. He was jumping into the play a lot in order to help generate some offence. His defensive play tonight actually wasn't that bad. He also hustled quite a bit.

Be patient. Sutter would be stupid to deal Phaneuf because he's had a so-so season.

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04-03-2009, 11:39 PM
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Mod-edit: deleted.... but I had thought of a trade Kipper thread...


Last edited by Snoil11: 04-05-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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04-04-2009, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
You don't trade away 23-year old, #1 defenceman. Phaneuf has had an up-and-down year, but he's still young and improving. Tonight, he just looked gas. He was jumping into the play a lot in order to help generate some offence. His defensive play tonight actually wasn't that bad. He also hustled quite a bit.

Be patient. Sutter would be stupid to deal Phaneuf because he's had a so-so season.
qft

I think we'll be able to judge to him best next year. Phaneuf only been so exposed because of his Rookie and Sophomore seasons and so now he's been a little overrated. But look, nobody even KNEW who the hell Bouwmeester was last season, but now all of a sudden he's the most wanted defenseman, and Jay Bouw is only one year older than Phaneuf.

So give him another season or two, allow him to balance his defensive game, while still incorporating his hitting and offensive abilities at the right times, and he's going to a force in this league very soon. Future Norris candidate, baby.

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04-04-2009, 01:14 AM
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I don't see how Phaneuf is a number one defenseman. He isn't good defensively by any stretch. He has awful positioning, and a low IQ at times. He has regressed if anything.

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04-04-2009, 01:30 AM
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we should give him another year or two


even derek morris lasted longer than 4 seasons before getting traded

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04-04-2009, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
I don't see how Phaneuf is a number one defenseman. He isn't good defensively by any stretch. He has awful positioning, and a low IQ at times. He has regressed if anything.
Is that really your answer? His defensive positioning is worse this year than ever before. Right, and the moon is filled with half and half.

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04-04-2009, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
I don't see how Phaneuf is a number one defenseman. He isn't good defensively by any stretch. He has awful positioning, and a low IQ at times. He has regressed if anything.
but he is still very young, give him more time to develop. the only negative is his massive contract at over 6 million dollars per year.

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04-04-2009, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
You don't trade away 23-year old, #1 defenceman. Phaneuf has had an up-and-down year, but he's still young and improving. Tonight, he just looked gas. He was jumping into the play a lot in order to help generate some offence. His defensive play tonight actually wasn't that bad. He also hustled quite a bit.
Actually I *would* trade him.. he is 23 and he needs time? umm... he's making in the neighborhood of $6.5 MM per year... he better be playing like a SUPERSTAR for the money we're paying him. Let me put it this way.. I'd rather have *any* stay at home defenceman + Cammaleri + Jokinen next year. We can't afford all three.

Phaneuf floats. He plays a lot of minutes and he gets tired. I think he should either play less (and play smarter) or get out of Dodge. Next time you're watching the game watch him try (or pass) the puck and move it out of his own end... he's USELESS at that! He's never improved upon that flaw... you pressure him in his own end and he CHOKES! he coughs up the puck...

That's what irritates me so much - he hasn't really improved in the past 2 years it actually seems to me that he's regressed a little. He has had the same weaknesses for years now... IMHO true superstar athletes work really hard to become well rounded and improve in the areas they are weak in.

I'm not denying he has some skills but I think he's kind of one dimensional. I get so sick of watching him float around and cough up the puck. I think he should take shorter shifts.

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04-04-2009, 03:05 AM
  #10
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One off year does not make a player's career.

See: Patrick Marleau.

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04-04-2009, 05:38 AM
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it's got to be a pretty outstanding trade if you're going to get rid of a franchise defenceman.

but it's always fun to speculate what you could get in return.

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04-04-2009, 06:38 AM
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it's got to be a pretty outstanding trade if you're going to get rid of a franchise defenceman.

but it's always fun to speculate what you could get in return.
at this point I'd do it for a real franchise goaltender if they take Kiprusuck off out hands

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04-04-2009, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MistaWrista View Post
Is that really your answer? His defensive positioning is worse this year than ever before. Right, and the moon is filled with half and half.
Have you watched him play? He makes countless bonehead decisions, takes bad positions, and gets beat all the time. His offense has gone down since his rookie season(half of his shots go sailing high and wide-no this isn't for a bounce off the boards, it's just off) and so people assume he's working on his defense. Truth is his defense isn't even that much better than it was 2-3 years ago.

I'd much rather have Jay-Bo at a comparable price.

This isn't "1 bad year" as the more ice team we give him, the worse he is. He's never going to be a shut down guy, the most we can hope for is narrowly above average with a great offensive game. And for me, I want my number one pairing to be able to shut down anyone at anytime.

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04-04-2009, 09:52 AM
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I wouldn't take Bouwmeester over Phaneuf. Exactly what has Bouwmeester accomplished? He's more than 2 years old than Phaneuf and he's finally had a big season. For his other 6 NHL years, he's been pretty much non-discrete. I really like Bouwmeester, but only this year has he played up to his abilities, and this year just so happens to be a contract year. Always be weary of players in contract years - see Brian Campbell.

Phaneuf's defensive play, while still subpar, has improved this year compared to last year. Because his offensive production is down, people are just noticing his defensive play. He could also improve his skating (at least his lateral movement) and taking angles on defenders. This is what he should be focusing on in the off-season.

Anyway, people are so fickle. A guy has an off-year, and he should be traded. Using this philosophy, the Flames should trade Regehr, Kiprusoff (although he's had 2 consecutive down years), Langkow, and Iginla as well.

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04-04-2009, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I wouldn't take Bouwmeester over Phaneuf. Exactly what has Bouwmeester accomplished? He's more than 2 years old than Phaneuf and he's finally had a big season. For his other 6 NHL years, he's been pretty much non-discrete. I really like Bouwmeester, but only this year has he played up to his abilities, and this year just so happens to be a contract year. Always be weary of players in contract years - see Brian Campbell.

Phaneuf's defensive play, while still subpar, has improved this year compared to last year. Because his offensive production is down, people are just noticing his defensive play. He could also improve his skating (at least his lateral movement) and taking angles on defenders. This is what he should be focusing on in the off-season.

Anyway, people are so fickle. A guy has an off-year, and he should be traded. Using this philosophy, the Flames should trade Regehr, Kiprusoff (although he's had 2 consecutive down years), Langkow, and Iginla as well.
this is the 3rd consecutive season that saw Kipper has gotten progressively worse... its time to look into asking him to waive his NTC

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04-04-2009, 10:28 AM
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Wow mention a trade Iggy thread and everyone goes nuts, but Phaneauf and Kipper trades are cool and people think about it. There must be a lot of Iggys relatives on this site. Either way this core group isn't as good as everyone would like to believe. I'm from Winnipeg and they did the same with the Jets year in year out, the local media outlets build up the players because they practically work for the team ie Fan960 in Calgary and the fans believe the hype. In the end they're not as great as advertised and certain players are fabricated superstars, ie Iginla, Phaneauf, and Kipper.

I'd be fine trading any of the 3 either way with them all together nothing much will get done.

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04-04-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I wouldn't take Bouwmeester over Phaneuf. Exactly what has Bouwmeester accomplished? He's more than 2 years old than Phaneuf and he's finally had a big season. For his other 6 NHL years, he's been pretty much non-discrete. I really like Bouwmeester, but only this year has he played up to his abilities, and this year just so happens to be a contract year. Always be weary of players in contract years - see Brian Campbell.

Phaneuf's defensive play, while still subpar, has improved this year compared to last year. Because his offensive production is down, people are just noticing his defensive play. He could also improve his skating (at least his lateral movement) and taking angles on defenders. This is what he should be focusing on in the off-season.

Anyway, people are so fickle. A guy has an off-year, and he should be traded. Using this philosophy, the Flames should trade Regehr, Kiprusoff (although he's had 2 consecutive down years), Langkow, and Iginla as well.
Bouwmeester is much much better defensively. No you have it wrong. People assume because his offense has gone down that his defense has gone. His offense hasn't been great, and his defense has flat out sucked most times.

Phaneuf hasn't improved any really in his own end, he has regressed. But Bouwmeester worked on being good in his own end, before playing offense. The offense is coming around and the defense is there. That's the difference.

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04-04-2009, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
this is the 3rd consecutive season that saw Kipper has gotten progressively worse... its time to look into asking him to waive his NTC
Not to mention we have some goalies in the system that are rotting away. Brent Krahn was a waste, Irving doesn't look to get a chance, Keetley won't get a shot, and McElhinney hardly plays and he has shown flashes that he can be a starting goalie.

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04-04-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Bouwmeester is much much better defensively. No you have it wrong. People assume because his offense has gone down that his defense has gone. His offense hasn't been great, and his defense has flat out sucked most times.

Phaneuf hasn't improved any really in his own end, he has regressed. But Bouwmeester worked on being good in his own end, before playing offense. The offense is coming around and the defense is there. That's the difference.
Calgary would be a much, much better team with Bouwmeester playing in Phaneuf's place. For the rest of the NW division's sake I hope you guys keep him for a long, long time.

Hopefully Van makes JBO a lucrative offer this offseason .

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04-04-2009, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Bouwmeester is much much better defensively. No you have it wrong. People assume because his offense has gone down that his defense has gone. His offense hasn't been great, and his defense has flat out sucked most times.

Phaneuf hasn't improved any really in his own end, he has regressed. But Bouwmeester worked on being good in his own end, before playing offense. The offense is coming around and the defense is there. That's the difference.

Is he really?Better sure, but I think the gap is nowhere near as big as people want to think.
People assume the Jbow is so good defensvily becuase they assume that Florida is not a good team. thats not correct. Florida since the lockout has actualy been one of the more defensive teams in the NHL. So when you look at JBow's plus minus rating in comparison to Florida's its really not all that different.
05/06 He was a plus 1. Team was a plus 12
06/07 he was a plus 23 team was a plus 13.
07.08 he was a -5. Team was a -3
This year. Team is sitting at a +6. He is a minus 2.
His offence really is no different than years past. Especialy when Florida has avg.2 more goals per game this year than last year and even with having what even you call "a bad year" Phaneuf is going to post much better offensive numbers.

Phaneuf's plus minus in every year but this one has been almost identical to the Flames. This year, yes its off. However, let's also not forget the Flames are only +1 as a team. Suddenly -12 doens't look so awful, especialy when you consdiered his plus minus is realy unchanged since about December When it was a -9/-10 range.

Then you have to remember, that JBow has 2 years age on Phaneuf, 2 more years in the NHL and 3 more years of Pro hockey than Phaneuf.

Lastly, I love how everyon likes to highlight this season as the comparison between Phaneuf and JBow. Your right about one thing thought, yes Phaneuf was developed differently than Jbow. He was allowed to play to his strengths and they would develop the rest over time. However, I like how people highlight this one development year from Phaneuf and doen't see that JBow had more than one of them. It wasn't long ago, that people were not even sure if JBow would live up to the number 3 overal billing. He developed slowly, Phaneuf developed quickly, and even with that considered the gap isn't that big.

As far as the contract goes, sure he isn't living up to it yet. However, did Vanek live up to his last year? How about Marleau? How about Iginla in 05/06? How about Brad Richards? Luongo last year?

Should those teams have delt those players?

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04-04-2009, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
this is the 3rd consecutive season that saw Kipper has gotten progressively worse... its time to look into asking him to waive his NTC
And yes Kipper appears to have regressed, but i'll dispute that. last year was a definet off year for him. This year, he is playing too much. Lately alot of the goals are just goals that go in because of timing and focus. Both things IMO, stem from mental fatigue. Last year was different. Last year, he was out of position, not consistant in the sense of wether or not he wanted to be aggressive or not. This year, all that is there. The bad goals that go in are the result of timing. Take last nights game for example. The first Wild goal is a great tip no fault there. However, the second one goes through the legs. He is in the right spot, reacts well, but is just a tough late. 3rd goal, again good position, good spot, but reacts late and it sneaks through his arm.
That IMO, is mental fatigue becuase I do believe he is playing too much. Its hard for me to blame Keenan though, just because McE has just not been good behind him.

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04-04-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
this is the 3rd consecutive season that saw Kipper has gotten progressively worse... its time to look into asking him to waive his NTC
and replace him with who? I think the problem with the Flames is that they play kipper a bit too much, time for a goalie that can handle at least 10 games.

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04-04-2009, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cross16 View Post
And yes Kipper appears to have regressed, but i'll dispute that. last year was a definet off year for him. This year, he is playing too much. Lately alot of the goals are just goals that go in because of timing and focus. Both things IMO, stem from mental fatigue. Last year was different. Last year, he was out of position, not consistant in the sense of wether or not he wanted to be aggressive or not. This year, all that is there. The bad goals that go in are the result of timing. Take last nights game for example. The first Wild goal is a great tip no fault there. However, the second one goes through the legs. He is in the right spot, reacts well, but is just a tough late. 3rd goal, again good position, good spot, but reacts late and it sneaks through his arm.
That IMO, is mental fatigue becuase I do believe he is playing too much. Its hard for me to blame Keenan though, just because McE has just not been good behind him.
I really want to see what leland irving can do. Just someone that can play well for us, we need to see more of a 60-22 split in games. When Kipper is not the asked to play 75 games he is still very effective.

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04-05-2009, 02:01 PM
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I really want to see what leland irving can do. Just someone that can play well for us, we need to see more of a 60-22 split in games. When Kipper is not the asked to play 75 games he is still very effective.
I agree, but it is nice to take time with a goalie prospect. Right now we have that luxury. Plus with Kiprusoff signed for the next 5 years at 5.83M theres no reason for Irving to sit behind him that long. Maybe 2 or 3 down and 2 or 3 up to see what he can do.

Regarding a trade of one of the big 3 Phaneuf would be the easiest to move and would be the guy I move personally. That said if he gets back to the level he was at last year I'd keep him at 6.5M very happily.

That said I'm less confident in Kiprusoff filling out his contract productively but if he were moved then (if we were able to move him) then who do we play? Also keep in mind as soon as we want him moved, there will be no way anybody takes him. Scary stuff.

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04-05-2009, 07:01 PM
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As a Canucks fan...this sounds so stupid.

You guys have one of the best forwards in the league.... top 10 D ...and a top 5 goalie.

Trading any one of those 3 would be idiotic.

If anything should change, its supporting cast or coach/style of play...i wouldnt touch iggy kipper or phaneuf

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