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Old
04-21-2009, 02:49 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by hans View Post
I am throughly confused by your reaction and assume you have confused me for tantrum4. I'm Hans. Not tantrum4. You don't have to use the face with me.

Why is there a need for 25 and under? Because I was making the point that the two teams' young defensemen, who happen to be the core of each team's defensive unit, had different levels of experience.

What is your sense of how experience works? That if O'Donnell has some, it magically diffuses equally into all the defensemen? Drew Doughty, coming into this season, had played 0 NHL games. The fact that O'Donnell had played a billion is great for O'Donnell, but it doesn't mean a damn thing for Doughty.

I don't think there's anything creative about including Wisniewski. Did he, or did he not, play for Chicago this year? I know he got traded, and I know he missed time with his injury, but he still got games in. If you'd like me to include Drewiske by the same token, I'd be happy to. It only reinforces my point that most of our defensemen didn't have a lot of experience coming into this year, and that they still don't.

Here's the numbers recalculated for today, if you think for some reason it makes any difference. You'll notice that most of the Chicago guys still have played 100+ games more than most of the Kings guys.

Keith - 322
Seabrook - 314
Wisniewski - 185
Byfuglien - 178
Barker - 149

Greene - 233
Johnson - 120
Harrold - 106
Quincey - 85
Doughty - 81

Hockey isn't an RPG. Everyone in the party doesn't get to share O'Donnell's experience points.
I agree with what you are saying hans but Byfuglien hasn't played defense for Chicago all season so he doesn't really count.

Keith had kind of been alone on that back-end (Doughty) but Seabrook finally blew up this year and Barker has been solid. I'd say that Johnson is this teams Seabrook and a breakthrough season along with continued steady play--and hopefully forward progress--from Greene and Quincey will go a very long way towards this team making the playoffs next season.

Not to knock Matt Walker or anything, but they've got Matt Walker playing a regular shift so it's not like the bottom of their pairings is some huge upgrade over Gauthier or O'Donnell. The bottom line is that Johnson needs to get better and become the player he was projected to be.

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Old
04-21-2009, 04:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I think our major difference is that you're more accepting of anything and everything that TM and DL does whereas I tend to question their moves and even be critical when appropriate. You tend to defer and nod and I like to ask why? In other words, you're pretty much a puppet and I'm a true diehard fan who gets frustrated when DL and TM make questionable moves.

You see no problem starting Harrold on the second line because TM says that's where he needs to play. You don't question trading away 2 of our best LW's (and having guys play out of position) for an injured RW and a D prospect who's still years away. You nod "yes" to giving extensions to Cloutier coming off an injury only to buy him out 2 yrs later. Yes, DL and TM would love every LA fan to be oblivious and just nod their heads like you. Why wouldn't they? Just shut up and pay they say and you say "how much" and "thank you".

Have TM and DL improved our team? Yeah they have but let's just take a look at what TM had to work with on D compare to MC just last year.

2007-2008

Rob "P*ssy" Blake
Lubo
Preissing
JJ
Dallman
Modry
Harrold
Klemm

2008-2009

DD
Greene
OD
JJ
KQ
Harrold
Gauthier
Preissing
Drewisky

Looking over our defense for the past 2 yrs, wouldn't you expect better defense from this year's team? Believe me, I'm not an MC fan but even he could have guided this team to miss the playoffs.

And for whatever it's worth, I too had approved for both TM and DL. And just because I approve of them doesn't mean that I can't be critical.

Nod yes.

Sorry but again, you show me how little you know about how to put together a team. Do you REALLY think it would have been better to keep Cammy this year, knowing that we had ZERO chance to re-sign him? Or did you think that with Cammy in our lineup this year we would have won the Cup? To get rid of a guy that was not going to be here next year and to get a first round pick for him is an outstanding move by DL. No matter how many goals Cammy would have scored for us this year, we still would not have made the playoffs. And if we did, we would not have won the Cup. And to say O'Sullivan is one of our best LW's is a sad statement. Not by you, but towards our organization because if one of our best LW's can only score 15 goals, we're in trouble. So what did Dean do? Trade him for a guy that has already shown he can score 30, and has won a Cup. If you think the trade was made to better the team this year so we could win the Cup, again, sorry, that wasn't the intention.

In regards to Harrold I can agree with you there, but that's not something I would write a whole post about and berate the coach and call for him to be fired. For whatever reason TM seemed to like Harrold's work ethic and moved him up front. But this is also what I mean when I was talking about Vancouver fans. Kyle Wellwood did absolutely squat except for the first 10 games of the year, but the fans still support the guy. I just don't know why we can't do the same for our players.

With regards to Cloutier, an obvious blunder by DL, but what about picking Quincy off waivers? Bad move? No it wasn't. But what did everyone on here say when he picked him up? "what a stupid move. who is this plug? why would Lombardi be so stupid?"
What about trading Gleason & Belanger for JJ? I'm sure you're ok with that one right? You only pick out the situations that are bad and point them out, but you can never give credit where it's due, and it really gets old. Just like everybody says about anthony on Rich's site. Wait a minute....anthony? Is that you?


And in regards to the difference in defence from last year to this year, how do you think the changes came about? Oh yea Lombardi made the changes didn't he.....what a crappy GM we have.....

My point is, you say I'm a puppet towards the GM and coach of the team? Not at all, I think I just have a better grasp of how things work in hockey since I've actually played the game for the last 25 years at a very high level. I know how things work and what kind of players a team needs to make it work. I know what goes on behind closed doors with a hockey team, in practice, on the road, when they're out drinking etc etc, and i can guarantee you all hockey teams and hockey players all come from the same mold, whatever level they're playing at. It seems to me like you just read what other posters think, then nod your head yes and retype what you've read because you never been a part of a hockey team........and if you have, I'll bet you were the guy that sat at the front of the bus watching movies when the rest of the guys were at the back playing poker.........

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04-21-2009, 04:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
Sorry but again, you show me how little you know about how to put together a team. Do you REALLY think it would have been better to keep Cammy this year, knowing that we had ZERO chance to re-sign him? Or did you think that with Cammy in our lineup this year we would have won the Cup? To get rid of a guy that was not going to be here next year and to get a first round pick for him is an outstanding move by DL. No matter how many goals Cammy would have scored for us this year, we still would not have made the playoffs. And if we did, we would not have won the Cup. And to say O'Sullivan is one of our best LW's is a sad statement. Not by you, but towards our organization because if one of our best LW's can only score 15 goals, we're in trouble. So what did Dean do? Trade him for a guy that has already shown he can score 30, and has won a Cup. If you think the trade was made to better the team this year so we could win the Cup, again, sorry, that wasn't the intention.

In regards to Harrold I can agree with you there, but that's not something I would write a whole post about and berate the coach and call for him to be fired. For whatever reason TM seemed to like Harrold's work ethic and moved him up front. But this is also what I mean when I was talking about Vancouver fans. Kyle Wellwood did absolutely squat except for the first 10 games of the year, but the fans still support the guy. I just don't know why we can't do the same for our players.

With regards to Cloutier, an obvious blunder by DL, but what about picking Quincy off waivers? Bad move? No it wasn't. But what did everyone on here say when he picked him up? "what a stupid move. who is this plug? why would Lombardi be so stupid?"
What about trading Gleason & Belanger for JJ? I'm sure you're ok with that one right? You only pick out the situations that are bad and point them out, but you can never give credit where it's due, and it really gets old. Just like everybody says about anthony on Rich's site. Wait a minute....anthony? Is that you?


And in regards to the difference in defence from last year to this year, how do you think the changes came about? Oh yea Lombardi made the changes didn't he.....what a crappy GM we have.....

My point is, you say I'm a puppet towards the GM and coach of the team? Not at all, I think I just have a better grasp of how things work in hockey since I've actually played the game for the last 25 years at a very high level. I know how things work and what kind of players a team needs to make it work. I know what goes on behind closed doors with a hockey team, in practice, on the road, when they're out drinking etc etc, and i can guarantee you all hockey teams and hockey players all come from the same mold, whatever level they're playing at. It seems to me like you just read what other posters think, then nod your head yes and retype what you've read because you never been a part of a hockey team........and if you have, I'll bet you were the guy that sat at the front of the bus watching movies when the rest of the guys were at the back playing poker.........
I stopped reading after the bolded part because the very fact that Cammy isn't a king isn't the fault of Cammy but due to DL's hard nosed stance when it comes to contracts.

If I'm JJ and DL offers me a two year deal after a tough negotiations, there's no way I'm signing that deal after what's happened with Cammy and Sully.

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04-21-2009, 05:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I stopped reading after the bolded part because the very fact that Cammy isn't a king isn't the fault of Cammy but due to DL's hard nosed stance when it comes to contracts.

Is that right? Gee I wonder why Kopitar signed for 7 years then? Why did Brown sign for 6?.....ya you're right, it could NEVER be Cammy's fault....

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04-21-2009, 05:55 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
Is that right? Gee I wonder why Kopitar signed for 7 years then? Why did Brown sign for 6?.....ya you're right, it could NEVER be Cammy's fault....
Kopitar signed for 7 years because DL threw a fat contract at him that the Kings might regret in the end. I don't know why Brown signed for 6 years - IMO he left a bunch of money on the table for the last couple of years of the contract.

Quote:
Sorry but again, you show me how little you know about how to put together a team...
I was waiting for the "I'm Canadian and I know more about hockey than anyone in California" rant...

Before we bow to your superior knowledge and insight, why don't you post your hockey resume for us so we can defer to your magnificence. 25 years of playing at a high level? That means you must be pushing 40... (yeah, right)

Why don't you first try to clean up your post before demanding credibility. Virtually every statement in there is either a half-truth, exaggeration, or misrepresentation of the facts.

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04-21-2009, 07:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
In regards to Harrold I can agree with you there, but that's not something I would write a whole post about and berate the coach and call for him to be fired. For whatever reason TM seemed to like Harrold's work ethic and moved him up front. But this is also what I mean when I was talking about Vancouver fans. Kyle Wellwood did absolutely squat except for the first 10 games of the year, but the fans still support the guy. I just don't know why we can't do the same for our players.
Most boards i read have a habit of that what have you done for me lately attitude with players. You are no exception as i have read some of your posts about certain players. I myself agree with the sentiment of supporting the players, i don't think you practice the sentiment.

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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
With regards to Cloutier, an obvious blunder by DL, but what about picking Quincy off waivers? Bad move? No it wasn't. But what did everyone on here say when he picked him up? "what a stupid move. who is this plug? why would Lombardi be so stupid?"
What about trading Gleason & Belanger for JJ? I'm sure you're ok with that one right? You only pick out the situations that are bad and point them out, but you can never give credit where it's due, and it really gets old. Just like everybody says about anthony on Rich's site. Wait a minute....anthony? Is that you?
You might want to read the thread on Quincey when he was picked up as the vast majority of the posters on here were satisfied with the move.

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04-21-2009, 07:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post



With regards to Cloutier, an obvious blunder by DL, but what about picking Quincy off waivers? Bad move? No it wasn't. But what did everyone on here say when he picked him up? "what a stupid move. who is this plug? why would Lombardi be so stupid?"
Just to let you know almost everyone on these boards had something positive to say about picking up Quincey. Even before he played a game.

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04-21-2009, 07:53 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
With regards to Cloutier, an obvious blunder by DL, but what about picking Quincy off waivers? Bad move? No it wasn't. But what did everyone on here say when he picked him up? "what a stupid move.
Ok, I just caught this.

FYI, DL didn't want to claim KQ. He HAD to be convinced by one of his scouts. It's all there on record.

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04-21-2009, 07:54 PM
  #84
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Wow this thread took a nose dive really fast.

So yeah,

I'll tell you where I KNOW Murray is better than our last few coaches.

You can listen to him being interviewed without your ears feeling like someone is pouring sulfur in them!

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04-21-2009, 09:35 PM
  #85
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Wow this thread took a nose dive really fast.

So yeah,

I'll tell you where I KNOW Murray is better than our last few coaches.

You can listen to him being interviewed without your ears feeling like someone is pouring sulfur in them!
I set the bar a little higher than "he sucks less than the other guys"

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04-21-2009, 10:35 PM
  #86
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I set the bar a little higher than "he sucks less than the other guys"
There goes the only criteria we had for judging the haters.

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04-21-2009, 10:51 PM
  #87
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Kopitar signed for 7 years because DL threw a fat contract at him that the Kings might regret in the end. I don't know why Brown signed for 6 years - IMO he left a bunch of money on the table for the last couple of years of the contract.
A 6.8 cap hit for the highest scoring young forward since the lockout not named Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin is hardly a "fat contract."

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04-21-2009, 10:58 PM
  #88
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A 6.8 cap hit for the highest scoring young forward since the lockout not named Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin is hardly a "fat contract."
Getzlaf at 1.5 mil less and more points perhaps?

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04-21-2009, 11:33 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
A 6.8 cap hit for the highest scoring young forward since the lockout not named Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin is hardly a "fat contract."
It depends how you define "young" - under 25? If so, Jeff Carter and Zach Parise have more goals at a substantially lower cap hit. Parise has 2 more seasons at less than half what Kopitar signed for

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04-21-2009, 11:44 PM
  #90
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Getzlaf at 1.5 mil less and more points perhaps?
To be fair, the Ducks kind of lucked out in that Getlaf's first year was decent, his second solid, and he was just exploding when they resigned him. Kopitar had already had two explosive seasons to start.

Getzlaf after two years:
GP G A P P/G
139 39 58 97 .698

Kopitar after two years:
154 52 86 138 .897

If you look at it that way, at the respective points in their careers when they were signed, Kopitar looks/looked to have the higher upside. That said, at the time Kopitar signed his contract, the Getzlaf precedent was set. I think we paid a little more for an extra few years on the contract (opposite of Brown oddly enough).

Could it have been cheaper? Probably. In the end I don't think we'll end up regretting that contract. I believe Kopitar will live up to it.

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04-21-2009, 11:56 PM
  #91
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Could it have been cheaper? Probably. In the end I don't think we'll end up regretting that contract. I believe Kopitar will live up to it.
The biggest problem with the contract is that it sets a dangerous precedent of paying a young player a huge amount of money when they have yet to reach their potential. This could cause Doughty to demand a similar contract in 2 years.......would people be happy with that?

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04-22-2009, 12:08 AM
  #92
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The biggest problem with the contract is that it sets a dangerous precedent of paying a young player a huge amount of money when they have yet to reach their potential. This could cause Doughty to demand a similar contract in 2 years.......would people be happy with that?
Good point. Obviously you can only pay two, MAYBE three superstar-sized contracts, depending on your supporting cast.

As for Doughty, to answer your question, yes. If we are going to pay 6mill + for a defenseman (which if you go by cup teams, one of these is almost a must), it should be Doughty. I am personally hoping that we sign him for ~ 5.5 cap hit for 8+ years. Lock that dude up forever.

We pay Kopi big bucks, Doughty big bucks, (Gaborik) big bucks, and Frolov medium-big bucks. If DL structures contracts properly it will be fine. It won't last forever, but that's the cap world for you. I'm hoping DL takes the Holland approach for Frolov.

9 years, 6.5 for 2, 6 for one, 5 for two, 4.5 for one, 4 for one, 3 for two. 38.5 mill total, 4.27 cap hit. He's what, 35 at the end of the contract? King for life baby. We always say how we want so and so to be a King for life. Well that's how you do that.

Everyone's happy. Frolov gets paid, we get Frolov, the cap hit isn't insane. Apply the same for Doughty, but being what he is, expect a higher cap hit, but please, give him a Mike Greene contract! I wouldn't mind one bit them signing Doughty for 12 years.

We have to pay big bucks eventually. Might as well be for Kopi and Doughty, a star and a superstar in the making.

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04-22-2009, 12:34 AM
  #93
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The biggest problem with the contract is that it sets a dangerous precedent of paying a young player a huge amount of money when they have yet to reach their potential. This could cause Doughty to demand a similar contract in 2 years.......would people be happy with that?
I don't think DL had much of a choice with Kopi, he knows Kopi's the centerpiece to the kings puzzle. And with Cammy's recent departure as well as his reputation with holdout problems in SJ, DL may very well have jeopardized his job if he couldn't re-sign Kopi to a long term contract.

DL may be a p*ick when it comes to negotiations but he's not stupid.

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04-22-2009, 12:51 AM
  #94
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Wow. Wasn't Squid the guy crying about DL not paying O'Sullivan for his potential? What a joke that guy is; I'm thankful for the ignore function.

And Parise, Carter, and Getzlaf all scored significantly less during their first three years in the league.

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04-22-2009, 01:08 AM
  #95
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You are correct in that Kopi does have more total points than Getzlaf but Kopi also has more games played. It's a lot closer when you break it down to ppg.

Kopi- .086
Getzlaf- .083

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04-22-2009, 01:22 AM
  #96
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Parise had nearly the same number of goals (77 to 79) but about 40 fewer assists - I'm not sure that those assists are worth OVER DOUBLE the salary considering how much better Parise did than Kopitar this season

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04-22-2009, 01:27 AM
  #97
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Who cares. We have one of the league's premier young centers locked up for years to come. Kopitar or his contract is not nearly as unsightly as Gomez or something of the like...

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04-22-2009, 01:29 AM
  #98
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I'm not sure where you are getting those point per game numbers.

I listed their respective pp/g numbers after two years each, and Kopi had a significantly(imo) higher pp/g average of .897 to Getzlafs .698 in 15 more games played than Getzlaf.

If you are talking careers, then Getzlaf has a .909 pp/g in 297 career games, compared to Kopi's .864 in 236 career games.

There's no doubt that over the same two year period Getz has been the better point producer, my point was comparing Kopi 2006-2008 to Getzlaf 2005-2007. My point being Kopi as a 20-21 yr old was better than Getzlaf as a 20-21 yr old.

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04-22-2009, 01:34 AM
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Parise had nearly the same number of goals (77 to 79) but about 40 fewer assists - I'm not sure that those assists are worth OVER DOUBLE the salary considering how much better Parise did than Kopitar this season
The timing of break-out years is a *****, but its not so readily predictable. If you are comparing Parise this year to Kopi this year, then we'd paid a third for Kopi's production. If you want to compare their salaries to their production, compare them once Kopi is actually making that money.

If Kopi breaks out next year or in 2010 and scores 35-50=85, which I think we can all agree he is easily capable of acheiving, will it still seem so bad? And will comparing him to Parise mean anything?

Also, what Telos said.

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04-22-2009, 01:58 AM
  #100
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If Kopi breaks out next year or in 2010 and scores 35-50=85, which I think we can all agree he is easily capable of acheiving, will it still seem so bad?
IMO, for that kind of money, 85 points should be a given, not just a hope

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