My point is, you say I'm a puppet towards the GM and coach of the team? Not at all, I think I just have a better grasp of how things work in hockey since I've actually played the game for the last 25 years at a very high level. I know how things work and what kind of players a team needs to make it work. I know what goes on behind closed doors with a hockey team, in practice, on the road, when they're out drinking etc etc, and i can guarantee you all hockey teams and hockey players all come from the same mold, whatever level they're playing at. It seems to me like you just read what other posters think, then nod your head yes and retype what you've read because you never been a part of a hockey team........and if you have, I'll bet you were the guy that sat at the front of the bus watching movies when the rest of the guys were at the back playing poker.........
Link??? or just talk???
Inquiring minds want to know.
IMO, for that kind of money, 85 points should be a given, not just a hope
You know I typed 'When' instead of 'If', but changed it thinking that would be more agreeable. I figured 'When' would have incited responses of 'He hasn't yet, so...'
I can't win with you PSP
I consider Kopi scoring 85+ points in the first few years of the contract a given. What everyone knows is a given is that no matter how you slice it we paid for potential based of very good and promising production in two stellar rookie seasons. Kopi is not a fluke, flash in the pan. So either you believe he will reach his top potential as a 85-95 point scorer or you don't.
You know I typed 'When' instead of 'If', but changed it thinking that would be more agreeable. I figured 'When' would have incited responses of 'He hasn't yet, so...'
I can't win with you PSP
I consider Kopi scoring 85+ points in the first few years of the contract a given. What everyone knows is a given is that no matter how you slice it we paid for potential based of very good and promising production in two stellar rookie seasons. Kopi is not a fluke, flash in the pan. So either you believe he will reach his top potential as a 85-95 point scorer or you don't.
I felt much better about Kopitar reaching that top potential before this season. Something was different - and I'm not talking about the coaching staff or the system. The fire just wasn't there in the beginning of the season and, although we saw flashes of it, it never came back full force.
Sorry but again, you show me how little you know about how to put together a team. Do you REALLY think it would have been better to keep Cammy this year, knowing that we had ZERO chance to re-sign him? Or did you think that with Cammy in our lineup this year we would have won the Cup? To get rid of a guy that was not going to be here next year and to get a first round pick for him is an outstanding move by DL. No matter how many goals Cammy would have scored for us this year, we still would not have made the playoffs. And if we did, we would not have won the Cup. And to say O'Sullivan is one of our best LW's is a sad statement. Not by you, but towards our organization because if one of our best LW's can only score 15 goals, we're in trouble. So what did Dean do? Trade him for a guy that has already shown he can score 30, and has won a Cup. If you think the trade was made to better the team this year so we could win the Cup, again, sorry, that wasn't the intention.
Trading a an asset when its value is at a low point, is not what I would call "Outstanding."
If Cammalleri was never in DL's long term plans, he should have been traded after his 80 point season when he was still an RFA.
Also, DL packaged up the Kings' late 1st round pick, w/ the one he got from the Cammalleri trade, to get the 12th overall pick. So essentially, it was Cammalleri, PLUS a 1st round pick, for Teubert. Not a very good move value wise IMO. It especailly looks bad when you consider that Tuebert's stock has fallen since the draft.
The bottom line, is that Cammalleri, as an asset, was completely mismanaged.
Wow. Wasn't Squid the guy crying about DL not paying O'Sullivan for his potential? What a joke that guy is; I'm thankful for the ignore function.
There is a huge difference between paying a potential 30 goal 70 point foward $4 million a year on that potential and paying a potential 40 goal 90 point forward almost $7 million a year. 10 more goals and 20 extra points does not equate to $2.8 million more. What some here will not acknowledge is that if Dean signed Kopitar to that contract before Cammi's arbitration case he would have been directly responsible for Cammi winning a larger award.
Trading a an asset when its value is at a low point, is not what I would call "Outstanding."
If Cammalleri was never in DL's long term plans, he should have been traded after his 80 point season when he was still an RFA.
Also, DL packaged up the Kings' late 1st round pick, w/ the one he got from the Cammalleri trade, to get the 12th overall pick. So essentially, it was Cammalleri, PLUS a 1st round pick, for Teubert. Not a very good move value wise IMO. It especailly looks bad when you consider that Tuebert's stock has fallen since the draft.
The bottom line, is that Cammalleri, as an asset, was completely mismanaged.
Cammy as a player was mismanaged as well, but that pre-dates DL. The problem was that it (mismanagment) continued in every way after DL got here too.
Also, it is very easy to just accept what DL says when he claims "we were not going to be able to re-sign Cammy." That is not a hard and fast truth, but rather a choice DL made when he wouldn't negotiate after Cammy's 6MM demand and DL forced him into arbitration. Beyond that, THEY NEVER TRIED TO RE-SIGN HIM. Cammy never said, "I won't sign here no matter what." DL and Co. made a choice not to pay Cammy anywhere near what Cammy believed he could get on the UFA market. So the reality is that its an assumption (of DL's that they couldn't re-sign him) because they didnt want to based on their choice as to where they were going to spend money(Kopitar) and where they weren't (Cammy).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron
There is a huge difference between paying a potential 30 goal 70 point foward $4 million a year on that potential and paying a potential 40 goal 90 point forward almost $7 million a year. 10 more goals and 20 extra points does not equate to $2.8 million more. What some here will not acknowledge is that if Dean signed Kopitar to that contract before Cammi's arbitration case he would have been directly responsible for Cammi winning a larger award.
This logic illustrates that it was DL's choice not to re-sign Cammy. Even DL's description of Cammy's character in the private STH's meetings indicated that he didnt like Cammy and thought he wasn't the kind of player they wanted long term. So when it is echoed on this board that "The Kings had to trade him as they were not going to be able to re-sign him" (and he would have walked for nothing) to accept that conclusion, one must first ask "why?" The answer is that they chose not to even try, and that choice of DL's resulted in trading a quality asset for far lower than value, and even now DL has impliedly admited that.
I'll buy the idea that Lombardi, based on where this team is at in its development, that he didn't want Cammalleri at any price. He pretty much said that Cammalleri is the kind of player that a team that is a cup contender and is lacking some offensive firepower on the PP should get.
Now Dean has impliedly (is that even a word) admitted that he got low value for a quality asset? Keep backing away from that one. A few weeks ago he had said it, and now he has implied it. I don't think he has admitted or implied anything regarding the Cammalleri trade other than he got to move up and get the player he wanted in the draft.
Link??? or just talk???
Inquiring minds want to know.
I would love to be able to show you guys a link to my hockey stats but unfortunaltely, I played my last Junior game in 1994, and that was before there was any internet and no stats have been kept. The league I played in has now disolved and the teams either joined the AJHL (Alberta Junior Hockey League) or the BCHL (British Columbia Hockey League). I made the All-Star team in my final year as a defenseman and the biggest name you would know that I played against was Shawn Horcoff.The team I played for was the Grande Prairie Cheifs (now the Storm) and they are currently playing against the Vernon Vipers for the Doyle Cup.
After that I played Senior AAA hockey for the Dawson Creek Canucks of the NPHL against players including Theo Fleury and Gino Odjick (past their prime obviously). If you follow any hockey outside of the NHL you may have heard of the Allan Cup which is the Canadian Senior AAA title. They showed the highlights of this years final game on Hockey Night In Canada the other day.
Anyway you guys don't have to beleive me or whatever because I know this is the internet and anyone can say they're anyone but I really don't feel like buying a scanner just to photocopy my invites to the Kamloops Blazers, Portland Winter Hawks, Saskatoon Blades, Michigan State, University of Ottawa camps etc. The only one I went to was the Portland main camp but didn't make the team, and when I didn't make it, my dad didn't want to spend any more money taking me to all these camps that I might not make and waste his hard earned money.
I'm not trying to say I'm the greatest player ever but you guys asked me to prove it to you so I thought I might as well reply....
Anyway, this thread is getting boring and it's the same crap that's been argued about on this site for the last 2 years and will be for another 40....I'm out.
Most boards i read have a habit of that what have you done for me lately attitude with players. You are no exception as i have read some of your posts about certain players. I myself agree with the sentiment of supporting the players, i don't think you practice the sentiment.
Show me one post where I harshly cut down any of our players. (Cammy & O'Sully don't count since they're not on our team)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sueroe
You might want to read the thread on Quincey when he was picked up as the vast majority of the posters on here were satisfied with the move.
you may be right on this one. I wasn't posting on this site back then and I was actually talking about most of the posters on Hammond's site. My bad....
I'm not sure where you are getting those point per game numbers.
I listed their respective pp/g numbers after two years each, and Kopi had a significantly(imo) higher pp/g average of .897 to Getzlafs .698 in 15 more games played than Getzlaf.
If you are talking careers, then Getzlaf has a .909 pp/g in 297 career games, compared to Kopi's .864 in 236 career games.
There's no doubt that over the same two year period Getz has been the better point producer, my point was comparing Kopi 2006-2008 to Getzlaf 2005-2007. My point being Kopi as a 20-21 yr old was better than Getzlaf as a 20-21 yr old.
Anyway, this thread is getting boring and it's the same crap that's been argued about on this site for the last 2 years and will be for another 40....I'm out.
Well, if it's the same argument that's been discussed for the past 2 yrs, why did you start this thread?
On a sidenote, I believe you that you actually played hockey. However, I also believe that you don't quite know DL as much as you claim to.
Now Dean has impliedly (is that even a word) admitted that he got low value for a quality asset? Keep backing away from that one. A few weeks ago he had said it, and now he has implied it. I don't think he has admitted or implied anything regarding the Cammalleri trade other than he got to move up and get the player he wanted in the draft.
I'll buy the idea that Lombardi, based on where this team is at in its development, that he didn't want Cammalleri at any price. He pretty much said that Cammalleri is the kind of player that a team that is a cup contender and is lacking some offensive firepower on the PP should get.
Now Dean has impliedly (is that even a word) admitted that he got low value for a quality asset? Keep backing away from that one. A few weeks ago he had said it, and now he has implied it. I don't think he has admitted or implied anything regarding the Cammalleri trade other than he got to move up and get the player he wanted in the draft.
I'm not sure if this is the response you're looking for I do remember him saying that he expected more action on Cammy at the draft.
Well, if it's the same argument that's been discussed for the past 2 yrs, why did you start this thread?
On a sidenote, I believe you that you actually played hockey. However, I also believe that you don't quite know DL as much as you claim to.
Actually, when I started the thread it was about the Oilers fans starting a Facebook group to have McTavish fired, which I thought was rather funny....it got turned into DL & TM lovers vs haters somewhere in the middle.....
IMO, for that kind of money, 85 points should be a given, not just a hope
You must be drunk. PPG players are a rare breed in today's low scoring era. Any player who has reached point per game before his next contract extension is making 6 million or over.
And Parise is older and has a year of NHL development on Kopitar.
PPG players are a rare breed in today's low scoring era.
I agree - too bad Kopitar hasn't hit the PPG level yet. He had 66 points in 82 games this season - that's .805ppg. In his career, he has 204 points in 236 games for .864ppg
Close, but no enchilada
Quote:
Any player who has reached point per game before his next contract extension is making 6 million or over.
So NOW you're saying that Cammalleri deserved over $6 mil after scoring 80 points in 81 games in the 2006/7? I wish you'd make up your mind...
You must be drunk. PPG players are a rare breed in today's low scoring era. Any player who has reached point per game before his next contract extension is making 6 million or over.
And Parise is older and has a year of NHL development on Kopitar.
Says the guy who believes that Cammi is not worth $6 million a year. And you think I am a joke....
Says the guy who believes that Cammi is not worth $6 million a year. And you think I am a joke....
Quote:
So NOW you're saying that Cammalleri deserved over $6 mil after scoring 80 points in 81 games in the 2006/7? I wish you'd make up your mind...
I assume he's saying that PPG players (both Kopitar and Cammalleri) will/do make 6 million, not that they necessarily "deserve" to. Everyone has different criteria of what qualifies as deserving, and obviously Cammalleri doesn't meet his. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't live in a bubble; he knows that Cammalleri's going to get that kind of money next year whether he "deserves" it or not, because that's his market value. Just like Kopitar will get that kind of money next year whether he deserves it or not, because that's his market value.
I assume he's saying that PPG players (both Kopitar and Cammalleri) will/do make 6 million, not that they necessarily "deserve" to. Everyone has different criteria of what qualifies as deserving, and obviously Cammalleri doesn't meet his. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't live in a bubble; he knows that Cammalleri's going to get that kind of money next year whether he "deserves" it or not, because that's his market value. Just like Kopitar will get that kind of money next year whether he deserves it or not, because that's his market value.
Maybe you should read it again.......
Quote:
Any player who has reached point per game before his next contract extension is making 6 million or over.
Did Cammi accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? Yes
Did Kopitar accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? No
Did Cammi accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? Yes
Did Kopitar accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? No
And Cammy did it this year as well.
And remember that DL wont pay these young players on potential. Unless of course your name is Kopitar, and you need to show the fans that you will throw big money around somewhere.
And remember that DL wont pay these young players on potential. Unless of course your name is Kopitar, and you need to show the fans that you will throw big money around somewhere.
Well, Kopitar was a 30 goal scorer and nearly an 80 point producer by age 20 and was quite obviously our #1 franchise player. You have to lock that up for the long-term and it will usually cost you the big bucks. His contract really isn't that bad given today's market. I am one who is inclined to believe Kopitar will earn it as well. He doesn't have to play all that much better to earn a paycheck like that in today's market. Gaborik hasn't accomplished all that much more over Kopitar other than reaching the 40 goal and 80 point plateaus. Only 6 points better when comparing their best seasons...
__________________
"It has not been a good day. I lost my glasses early this morning and I had to go buy a pair of 79 dollar reading glasses today. 79 bucks. You can literally get them at Costco, three-for-20." - Darryl Sutter's response to going up 2-0 in the series.
Well, Kopitar was a 30 goal scorer and nearly an 80 point producer by age 20 and was quite obviously our #1 franchise player. You have to lock that up for the long-term and it will usually cost you the big bucks. His contract really isn't that bad given today's market. I am one who is inclined to believe Kopitar will earn it as well. He doesn't have to play all that much better to earn a paycheck like that in today's market. Gaborik hasn't accomplished all that much more over Kopitar other than reaching the 40 goal and 80 point plateaus. Only 6 points better when comparing their best seasons...
IMO, scoring 42 goals in a season is vastly more difficult than scoring 32 goals. Points are nice, but biscuits in the basket win games.
IMO, scoring 42 goals in a season is vastly more difficult than scoring 32 goals. Points are nice, but biscuits in the basket win games.
I don't disagree. But assists mean that biscuits are going in the basket as well. I am just pointing out that Kopitar is pretty accomplished for his age and deserving of his contract especially when compared to the market.
Did Cammi accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? Yes
Did Kopitar accomplish a ppg season before his current contract? No
80 points in 81 games is not a point per game. That's the standard you're using to say Kopitar's 77 in 82 is not a point per game, so for the sake of consistency you should acknowledge that neither have accomplished the feat. If Cammalleri's is "close enough", than Kopitar's should be too. At the very least it's hardly a situation where Cammalleri accomplished something significantly different than Kopitar.
As to my re-reading of the quote, I've discovered no word or phrase I missed the first time. I have noted some unusual grammar though, which may be the cause of this debate. He says "Any player who has reached point per game before his next contract extension is making 6 million or over." I suspect he is saying that any player (a nonspecific player) who reaches PPG before his next extension WILL MAKE (is making = is in a position to be making, in order to line up grammatically with "has reached") 6 million and over. I think you're reading it as "Every player who has reached PPG makes 6 million and over", which is untrue not only by Cammalleri but also by entry level and other recently-blossomed young players. I am supposing that aeg has some idea what he's talking about. I understand from the past animosity between you two that you do not suppose that. But in either case, I don't think the previously quoted statement is sufficient to prove either of our sides - too interpretative. He needs to just get in here and sort this one out himself, I think.
