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Old
04-05-2009, 06:26 PM
  #51
Kencaid
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ottawa doesnt do this on the basis that they need more prospects in their organization, as already pointed out

Kaberle is coming off a bad year mainly due to injuries. He had some really bad luck (getting hit in the hand with a puck has to suck) but still produced offensively. The 31 point reference doesnt make much sense, as he has only played 54 games. That churns out at 47pts over 82 games, not to mention how many points he could get on ottawa playing on the PP with heatly, spezza, and alfie??

Either way the sens just dont have the depth, and need to have some young players coming through their system before they can look to boost for the cup. I see them making the playoffs next year around the #5-7 spot (probly 6th or 7th), this is assuming they don't choke for another season.

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04-05-2009, 06:27 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You guys have to take it easy with the expectations on this kid. It's tough for a defenceman to make an impact in the NHL right after he comes over, so you don't want to set the bar too high for him. There aren't a lot of D who can be top pairing guys in their early twenties, it takes time.

btw, can any Sens fan tell me if he's planning on playing in NA next year?
Nobody knows. Murray stated he'd like to have him come over for training camp. If he wants to come over he'll have to get bigger, though.

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04-05-2009, 06:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
btw, can any Sens fan tell me if he's planning on playing in NA next year?
He said he wants to spend one more year in the SEL.
http://hockeysverige.se/news_show_ja...tml?id=5986716

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Old
04-05-2009, 06:37 PM
  #54
grabo84
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
He said he wants to spend one more year in the SEL.
http://hockeysverige.se/news_show_ja...tml?id=5986716
That's probably best for him anyways. Get him into training camp, get him on a workout plan, and make sure he's ready when he comes over.

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04-05-2009, 06:41 PM
  #55
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Wow, this thread remained surprisingly civil.

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04-05-2009, 07:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You guys have to take it easy with the expectations on this kid. It's tough for a defenceman to make an impact in the NHL right after he comes over, so you don't want to set the bar too high for him. There aren't a lot of D who can be top pairing guys in their early twenties, it takes time.

btw, can any Sens fan tell me if he's planning on playing in NA next year?
Our specific need isn't exactly a Top pairing guy who can play in all sorts of situations. Fillip Kuba does this to some extent and I can draw some comparisons to Kaberle, both of them are good in their own zone but aren't overly physical, they also possess sound decision making, and have good passing ability. The only thing that Kaberle does that Kuba doesn't is play the point well and get the puck on the net efficiently. Kuba has an accurate shot, but it's not very hard and he lacks the ability to reorient himself and open up lanes.

Karlsson on the other hand has great skating ability, he's very mobile on the point and can get his shot to the net. His size is his biggest downside and it's really the only thing that's held him back from being in the NHL already. He doesn't shy away from physical contact though and if he does add some bulk then it's quite possible that he could become a very well rounded blue liner. Ottawa has a very front loaded PP, and very little in terms of defensemen with high end offensive abilities. Karlsson would help with that and he could be an impact player in that role specifically. Frolunda actually had him on their first PP unit towards the end of the year and in the playoffs.

He's doubtful for the NHL this year, but it hasn't been ruled out. The article that Fuhr posted actually states that he thinks it would be good for him to stay in the SEL but it's not something that's been concluded for sure. In fact there are some other reports that have stated that Karlsson notified Frolunda that he may be headed for North America next season.

It's my personal belief that there's going to be some arrangement where he'll sign here and participate in a full NHL off season training program as well as the training camp and all the pre-season games. He may play a couple regular season games, but would be loaned back to Frolunda before his 9 game RFA status exemption is burned up.

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Old
04-05-2009, 07:24 PM
  #57
Hale The Villain
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
If the goal is to win a cup before Alfie the heart of the team retires then ya I'd make this deal.

Alfie is 36 and will be 37 in December.
A PPG play who plays 20 minutes a game in every situation.
Is the Sens inspirational leader.

Does he or the Sens have the time to wait for prospects to develop to take a run at the cup?
You have a guy whose window is closing as an elite player and someone you will not be able to replace when he is gone.

The team will need to rebuild when Alfredsson retires.

If the Sens do not want to try and win a cup with Alfredsson they hold on to the prospect and pick, but if they want to go for it before the best Senator in Ottawas history retires. They make the deal.
I may be wrong, but I would think our franchise wouldn't destroy our future just to get Alfie a cup ring and I am sure he feels the same way. What happens in two years when Kaberle is a UFA while Karlsson is in the NHL full time and that top 10 pick is looking mighty fine?

Why would we have to rebuild once Alfie retires? That top 10 pick will be at least a 2nd liner or a top 4 defenseman if used correctly when Alfie retires and if it is indeed used correctly than it will be Alfie's replacement (but no one can replace him in our hearts ). Karlsson will be a Kaberle type defenseman when Alfie retires and Wiercioch might be in the NHL, Zubov/Regin likely will and O'Brien will be our 3rd line centerman. Foligno will be a factastic 2nd liner and Lee will slowly develop into a top pairing defenseman.

Our future roster (Jordan Schroeder added as our top 10 pick)

Nick Foligno - Jason Spezza - Dany Heatley
????????????? - Mike Fisher - Jordan Schroeder
Peter Regin - Jim O'Brien - ??????
??????? - Zack Smith - Jesse Winchester

Erik Karlsson - Brian Lee
Anton Volchenkov - ?????
Chris Phillips - Patrick Wiercioch

Brian Elliott
????

The question marks could be filled in with prospects, free agents, trades etc... It doesn't look like a rebuilding roster to me

Add to the fact that Kaberle is slowly but surely getting worse with age, he won't be the same player he was last year and soon he won't be worth Karlsson or the first.

/rant

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Old
04-05-2009, 07:55 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
I may be wrong, but I would think our franchise wouldn't destroy our future just to get Alfie a cup ring and I am sure he feels the same way. What happens in two years when Kaberle is a UFA while Karlsson is in the NHL full time and that top 10 pick is looking mighty fine?

Why would we have to rebuild once Alfie retires? That top 10 pick will be at least a 2nd liner or a top 4 defenseman if used correctly when Alfie retires and if it is indeed used correctly than it will be Alfie's replacement (but no one can replace him in our hearts ). Karlsson will be a Kaberle type defenseman when Alfie retires and Wiercioch might be in the NHL, Zubov/Regin likely will and O'Brien will be our 3rd line centerman. Foligno will be a factastic 2nd liner and Lee will slowly develop into a top pairing defenseman.

Our future roster (Jordan Schroeder added as our top 10 pick)

Nick Foligno - Jason Spezza - Dany Heatley
????????????? - Mike Fisher - Jordan Schroeder
Peter Regin - Jim O'Brien - ??????
??????? - Zack Smith - Jesse Winchester

Erik Karlsson - Brian Lee
Anton Volchenkov - ?????
Chris Phillips - Patrick Wiercioch

Brian Elliott
????

The question marks could be filled in with prospects, free agents, trades etc... It doesn't look like a rebuilding roster to me

Add to the fact that Kaberle is slowly but surely getting worse with age, he won't be the same player he was last year and soon he won't be worth Karlsson or the first.

/rant

I agree, some Sens fans are so damn hooked on the idea that we are screwed once Alfie is gone

Ya it is going to be a big lose, but this years draft is probably when we will get a legit forward prospect (we also have 4 more drafts after this till alfie retires) that will be an impact player 5 years down the road... hopefully.

It was like those guys who were like "we cant win without Redden!!!"...so stupid

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:23 AM
  #59
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I agree, some Sens fans are so damn hooked on the idea that we are screwed once Alfie is gone

Ya it is going to be a big lose, but this years draft is probably when we will get a legit forward prospect (we also have 4 more drafts after this till alfie retires) that will be an impact player 5 years down the road... hopefully.

It was like those guys who were like "we cant win without Redden!!!"...so stupid
Do you watch the games when Alfie does not play?

Hell when he does play but not on a line with Speatly, They become useless.

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04-06-2009, 09:36 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Do you watch the games when Alfie does not play?

Hell when he does play but not on a line with Speatly, They become useless.
It's surprising really. I mean, on paper he should have the least effect out of all three. That's obviously not the case watching the team play though. He's far and away the most important player in terms of on-ice presence.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:54 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by I Am Canadian View Post
I know a trade between arch rivals this large would be slim but anyways..

(DRAFT DAY)

To Tor:

Karlsson
1st 09 ( 8-10 range)


To OTT:

Kaberle
2nd/3rd


It gets Ottawa the puck moving defensemen they need and Toronto 2 nice prospects. Im thinking that Ottawa wants Karlsson to become their Kaberle.

Anyways, Flame Away.
I don't think Ottawa trades Karlsson for Kaberle straight up, and there's no way Ottawa's pick (7-9 range) is getting traded for Kaberle either. The fact that you put both in the same trade...

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04-06-2009, 10:02 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by LIMITING REAGENT View Post
I think that Kaberle himself is good enough to get Karlsson and a first. Since we are division rivals, the sens would probably have to overpay. Anyways, not bad!
I think you're out of your mind

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Old
04-06-2009, 10:26 AM
  #63
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Do you watch the games when Alfie does not play?

Hell when he does play but not on a line with Speatly, They become useless.
ya i watch but that has more to do with our lack of depth. Now that Foligno/Shannon/Comrie on the team and producing his lose will be less of a blow but we need to somehow replace his offense to a certain extent.

This is same thing people said about Redden and how we can't win without him, well that team will adapt and move on

There is life after Alfie is gone.

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04-06-2009, 10:41 AM
  #64
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ya i watch but that has more to do with our lack of depth. Now that Foligno/Shannon/Comrie on the team and producing his lose will be less of a blow but we need to somehow replace his offense to a certain extent.

This is same thing people said about Redden and how we can't win without him, well that team will adapt and move on

There is life after Alfie is gone.
When Redden was a Sen we never missed the playoffs.

When Alfie is gone, it will take 2-3 years to rebuild to get back on track with a new identity.

Speatly will have the worst seasons of there career when Alfie retires.

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Old
04-06-2009, 10:47 AM
  #65
Dick Whitman
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This doesn't make much sense. Kaberle is much, much more valuable than either Phillips or Volchenkov, and is signed to a bargain contract. The Leafs are in a much deeper rebuild than the Sens, and need to build around young players - the sens have the luxury of an established young core.

Add to that the fact Schenn is a much higher rated prospect than Karlsson, and is playing in the NHL right now. He's arguably played better than either of those guys this year. That's really a bad example.



This makes a lot of sense though, and its probably true.
The only people that would argue that are Leaf homers. That was a completely ridiculous statement to make. Completely.

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Old
04-06-2009, 11:23 AM
  #66
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When Redden was a Sen we never missed the playoffs.

When Alfie is gone, it will take 2-3 years to rebuild to get back on track with a new identity.

Speatly will have the worst seasons of there career when Alfie retires.
no, they really wont

too bad you dont understand the concept of maturing over time

Alfie is 10 years older then Spezza and 8 years older than Heatley, just wait and see what they become in 4-5 years

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04-06-2009, 11:34 AM
  #67
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no, they really wont

too bad you dont understand the concept of maturing over time

Alfie is 10 years older then Spezza and 8 years older than Heatley, just wait and see what they become in 4-5 years
You kind of made my point.
Alfie right now in order for our two players who make a combined 14.5 to produce, need to hold there hands to produce.

How are they going to mature and learn to play without him, when they rely on him so much to produce now.
The second you take Alfie away Speatly continually vanishes and the Sens lose games.

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04-06-2009, 11:40 AM
  #68
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You kind of made my point.
Alfie right now in order for our two players who make a combined 14.5 to produce, need to hold there hands to produce.

How are they going to mature and learn to play without him, when they rely on him so much to produce now.
The second you take Alfie away Speatly continually vanishes and the Sens lose games.
it took Alfie till his early 30's to figure out how to carry a team and how to lead

trust me everything will be alright when we have spezza/Heatley leading the way. Either way Spezza is the cog in that first line anyways, Alfie nor Heatley never reached 100pts without Spezza in between them, and Spezza has grown immensely this year taking his game to a new level even while everyone else crapped the bed including Alfie for the first half of the year

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Old
04-06-2009, 11:56 AM
  #69
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Wow not bad. i think burke would take that.

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Old
04-06-2009, 01:21 PM
  #70
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The only people that would argue that are Leaf homers. That was a completely ridiculous statement to make. Completely.
Why? They're all playing big time minutes on losing teams, and have near identical plus/minus. Schenn has eight fewer points than Phillips, but five more than Volchenkov. All of them are playing as part of the shutdown defensive pairing on their respective teams.

I'm not saying Schenn is having a better year, but I do think you could argue they're having similar seasons. Nothing about what I said was based in being a Leafs homer, and it looks like a pretty fair point to make.

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04-06-2009, 02:00 PM
  #71
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Why? They're all playing big time minutes on losing teams, and have near identical plus/minus. Schenn has eight fewer points than Phillips, but five more than Volchenkov. All of them are playing as part of the shutdown defensive pairing on their respective teams.

I'm not saying Schenn is having a better year, but I do think you could argue they're having similar seasons. Nothing about what I said was based in being a Leafs homer, and it looks like a pretty fair point to make.
You cannot quantify everything a shutdown dman does with stats. Sure, there are hits, blocked shots, minutes played, +/- and takeaways but there is no stat out there for good positional play or minutes vs. opposing team's top line, pass deflects, and just solid defensive play. Phillips had a horrible start to the year by his standards but as it stands this year (and I'm speaking on a year by year case and not in the future) Chris Phillips and Anton Volchenkov are head and shoulders better than Luke Schenn.

And yes, I've seen Schenn play... Far too many times in fact. He's a very good young dman but he does not compare, atm to either player, no matter the season Ottawa is having.

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Old
04-06-2009, 02:04 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Why? They're all playing big time minutes on losing teams, and have near identical plus/minus. Schenn has eight fewer points than Phillips, but five more than Volchenkov. All of them are playing as part of the shutdown defensive pairing on their respective teams.

I'm not saying Schenn is having a better year, but I do think you could argue they're having similar seasons. Nothing about what I said was based in being a Leafs homer, and it looks like a pretty fair point to make.
I dont know why anyone would get upset about comparing Schenn and Phillips, they are both big defensive defensemen, look at Phillips first year and compare it to Schenn's Phillips didnt play until 1 year after being drafted mind you so Schenn is a year younger then Phillips in his first year.

Drafted by Ottawa in 1996 (1/1)
1997 Ottawa NHL 72 5 11 16 +2

Drafted by Toronto in 2008 (1/5)
2008 Toronto NHL 67 2 11 13 -13

This is why I get so confused why all the Leafers around me are so big on Schenn, I mean sure he could be something special but more then likely he will wind up being Chris Phillips which by no means is a terrible thing but hes still no super star.

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Old
04-06-2009, 02:15 PM
  #73
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You cannot quantify everything a shutdown dman does with stats. Sure, there are hits, blocked shots, minutes played, +/- and takeaways but there is no stat out there for good positional play or minutes vs. opposing team's top line, pass deflects, and just solid defensive play. Phillips had a horrible start to the year by his standards but as it stands this year (and I'm speaking on a year by year case and not in the future) Chris Phillips and Anton Volchenkov are head and shoulders better than Luke Schenn.

And yes, I've seen Schenn play... Far too many times in fact. He's a very good young dman but he does not compare, atm to either player, no matter the season Ottawa is having.
Okay, but you called me a biased Leafs homer for saying that an argument could be made that they're equally effective this year. It's pretty weak to turn around and rely on intangibles to support that. You might very well be right about their intangibles, but even so, all I said was that it was arguable. I think lots of people who aren't Leaf fans could agree on that.

If you check out the NHL website, they're all pretty much equal - Schenn leads in hits, Volchenkov in blocked shots, Phillips in takeaways, etc. They all lead their teams in PK time, with almost no PP time. It's interesting to see, even if it isn't necessarily hard proof of anything.

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Old
04-06-2009, 03:36 PM
  #74
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I really don't see why Ottawa would do this?

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04-06-2009, 03:55 PM
  #75
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Aside from the Schenn = Phillips, Volchenkov argument, which is not even worth contemplating at this point, this thread is interesting.

There's nothing wrong with the offer, even if you want to quibble on the value.

However, it's the kind of asset management that the Leafs organization is known for and thus it's not surprising to see a Leafs fan proposing it.

In my mind, in the new NHL, there's no point betting the farm on a season or two. A number of reasons for this:

(a) injuries and match-ups can play a massive role in determining playoff performance

-Even the best team can meet their proverbial kryptonite and get knocked out

(b) younger players = cheaper players

-In the cap world, it's pretty tough to field a team of all veterans and have the requisite skill level required to win. Vets cost more because of the UFA bump.

Giving up quality prospects and picks to try and win in a one or two season window is poor management of a franchise IMO.

Trying to maintain competitiveness for as long as possible is a better idea. Maximize your playoff appearances. Build playoff experience.

Ottawa has some decent pieces to build around, some top line talent, and some prospects who are earning ice time and experience in the league. Personally, I don't think it will be 6 or 7 seasons out of the playoffs before Ottawa is competitive again.

In the meantime, keep that pipeline moving along, keep the talent flowing to replace the pieces that inevitably have to be let go as their salaries become untenable.

The Senators have an excellent organizational record of bringing their top picks into the league, while finding treasures in later rounds, despite the fact that they typically finished near the top of the standings for the past decade or so.

In my mind, that's the way to manage the team. Not sacrificing your future for one or two rolls of the dice.

I think the Leafs have only recently finally stopped paying for the acquisitions of Francis, Nolan, Housley, Wesley, Leetch, Gilmour and Co. A valuable lesson for other franchises.


Last edited by NyQuil: 04-06-2009 at 04:03 PM.
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