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Old
04-05-2009, 01:50 PM
  #26
Guelkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Counter Proposal:

To Philly:

O'Sullivan, 1st '09

To Edmonton:

Lupul
Ya the Lupul era in Edmonton didn't go to great why would Edmonton want a player who doesnt want to be there in the first place.

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Old
04-05-2009, 01:55 PM
  #27
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Guelkey View Post
Ya the Lupul era in Edmonton didn't go to great why would Edmonton want a player who doesnt want to be there in the first place.

You're new so we'll be nice. This was suppose to be a rediculous counter proposal because he though the original proposal was rediculous.

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Old
04-05-2009, 02:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You're new so we'll be nice. This was suppose to be a rediculous counter proposal because he though the original proposal was rediculous.


Anyway, all you people that somehow believe "Sully+3rd>>>>>>>>>>JVR" tell me these things:

1) How does this work salary wise for Philadelphia?
2) Why we would trade someone 2nd all-time in USA scoring at the WJC?
3) Why if Sully is so ****ing good you want to trade him for such a "bust"?

As a matter of fact who do you think was picked 2nd overall since 2000?
Heatley, Spezza, Lehtonen, E. Staal, Malkin, Ryan, J. Staal, JVR, Doughty

Now you put together a proposal worthy of a 2nd overall selection and then we'll start talking. What would you give up to get Bobby Ryan? Then put that in terms of pieces that the Flyers can use. Then add a freaking 1st rounder. Then we'll consider it.

Until then everyone ****. You're not getting JVR.

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Old
04-05-2009, 02:16 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
So you think that Philly FANS don't know what they are talking about because we shouldn't balk at taking on an underachieving center in Schremp when we already have Carter, Richards, Briere and Giroux fighting for playing time at center now??? And sorry, DesLauriers ISN'T and "elite" goalie prospect worthy of trading an elite talent like JVR to get. Nice try though, I guess fans who don't know the other teams wants and needs nor their current roster really should refrain from calling, or in this case INFERRING, the fans of said team "clueless".
No that isn't what the poster meant at all. The poster meant that the proposal was only bad for Philly fans, implying it was a great deal for Edm. The poster knew it was one sided so it wasn't a serious offer. At least that is how I read it.

Edit and as a general side note on JVR. I was as big as anyone on JVR in his draft year. But I wasn't as impressed with him in this WJC in the tougher games. His size and skill advantage should have allowed him to shine through even in the tougher ones, and I didn't see that. We have to remember that for every Getzlaf, there is an Isbister. For every Ryan, a Bernier. Power forwards are a tough breed to peg. I still have high expectations for JVR but we shouldn't treat him as inevitable.


Last edited by s7ark: 04-05-2009 at 02:41 PM.
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Old
04-05-2009, 02:28 PM
  #30
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So if JVR is so "average" then why do you even want him at all??? Just because you thienk he's trash doesn't make it true. He's worth far far more than O'Sullivan and a 3rd. You wouldn't even get a laugh from Holmgren if you called him up with that proposal, he'd just hang up without saying a word.
I encourage you to look through my posts in this thread very carefully. Please point out where i said JVR is average or that i think he's trash. Really, get a ****ing clue. You know damn well that i didn't say that or even imply it, so just stop there. Obviously JVR is one of the top prospects, but at this point in time he has yet to play a single NHL game. Sully's been around for a few seasons now, so his worth to an NHL TEAM RIGHT NOW AT THIS VERY SECOND is more than JVR. That's how hockey works.

Quote:
You know what's even more amazing? He doesn't even know JVR IS in the AHL right now.
You're right, i didn't know that. I thought he was still in college. My bad.

You guys need to just chill out a little bit. People make mistakes, there's no need to act like you're somehow better than anyone who does.

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Old
04-05-2009, 02:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is actually a little bit better but the Flyers have a lot of NHL dmen and defensive prospects already so we don't need 2 more. Also, this really doesn't improve the flyers over just keeping Lupul and JVR so it really doesn't matter if it's close to fair value. It may help you but it doesn't improve us.
Flyers are set on stay at home guys with Coburn, Timmonen and Sbisa. They don't have any outstanding puckmovers (Carle and Jones are below average), and Gilbert seems to be on his way towards becoming one. Lupul and Briere will have to be moved due to their cap hit and next to Penner Lupul won't seem like an albatross and could be a top line winger until JVR is ready.

Ultimately, Flyers do need a goalie so Edmonton isn't the best trading partner, unless Edmonton replaces Chorney with a 1st and something else so Flyers could use to draft one.

If the Flyers send Jones and Carle on their way, and are left with Coburn, Timmonen, Gilbert, Sbisa, Parent and Alberts, that's a pretty outstanding top 6.

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Old
04-05-2009, 10:49 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Flyers are set on stay at home guys with Coburn, Timmonen and Sbisa.


I don't consider them "stay-at-home" guys at all. All move the puck very well. All have great vision. On top of that all of them are or will be very solid at the NHL level defensively.

Parent is a stay-at-home guy if you need an example.

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Old
04-06-2009, 03:19 AM
  #33
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I had a lot of fun reading this thread hahaha getting outta hand from a thread that started off saying "Be Gentle"

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Old
04-06-2009, 02:48 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace88 View Post



You're right, i didn't know that. I thought he was still in college. My bad.

You guys need to just chill out a little bit. People make mistakes, there's no need to act like you're somehow better than anyone who does.
I could be wrong but generally I think people get frustrated because people appear to not think before they post. Proposals are more of a hey do you think I could get this guy for this? Instead of a well thought out researched proposal. It's all irrelevant because it's really just for discussion's sake, and yes many people overreact, but in the future it can probably be avoided by doing a bit of research.

As for why this deal won't happen, 1 not enough coming to philly, and 2 Edmonton would have to take some salary back, we are tight against the cap and are looking at spending some coin on a goalie this offseason.

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Old
04-06-2009, 08:16 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Be Gentle.

----TRADE 1----

To PHI:

Patrick O'Sullivan
3rd '09 (Philadelphia's, from Pitkanen Deal)

To EDM:

James VanRiemsdyk

----TRADE 2----

To ATL:

1st '09
Andrew Cogliano

To EDM:

1st '09 (Magnus Svensson)

----TRADE 3----

To DAL:

Tom Gilbert

To EDM:

1st '09
Colton Sceviour
1: Edmonton says yes. Philly says no due to cap space.
Suggestion: Package with Gilbert which sends Gagne to the Oil.

2: Would love to. Would also give this up for Nash highly ranked Nash.

3: Done, only because we could put the cap space to good use.

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Old
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
  #36
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Flyers are set on stay at home guys with Coburn, Timmonen and Sbisa. They don't have any outstanding puckmovers (Carle and Jones are below average), and Gilbert seems to be on his way towards becoming one. Lupul and Briere will have to be moved due to their cap hit and next to Penner Lupul won't seem like an albatross and could be a top line winger until JVR is ready.

Ultimately, Flyers do need a goalie so Edmonton isn't the best trading partner, unless Edmonton replaces Chorney with a 1st and something else so Flyers could use to draft one.

If the Flyers send Jones and Carle on their way, and are left with Coburn, Timmonen, Gilbert, Sbisa, Parent and Alberts, that's a pretty outstanding top 6.
Actually, the only true stay at home Dmen the Flyers have are Parent and Alberts. Coburn is a hybrid. He's good at a lot of aspects but great at nothing. He's a good skater, he makes good outlet passes, he can carry the puck pretty well and he plays solid in his own zone. He hasn't been very physical in the past but he's starting to actually hit. Timonen is by far NOT a stay at home dman, I don't know where you got that idea from. He's a VERY good skater, great with the puck, quarterbacks the PP, he reads plays better than most other dmen in the NHL (he's in the top 5-10 in the league at this IMO) and though he's small, he's very very effective in his own zone. He's a PERFECT #1 dman, in fact he's so good that he can make actual 2nd pairing guys like Coburn and Parent 1st pairing guys. Both Parent and Coburn are legit #3/#4 dmen but with Timonen they can go up against the other teams top line because Timonen can take up so much of the slack from his partner. Carle is actually pretty good with the puck. He's not great but he's pretty good and he, not Coburn, is running the 2nd pairing for us. Without Carle, Coburn was a dissaster when asked to run the 2nd pairing. Carle came in and carried the 2nd pairing very well even when paired with our 18-year old rookie Sbisa. Parent was put with Timonen once he got healthy so that Timonen could help his growth and that let us pair Coburn with Carle and gave us 2 strong pairings. Sbisa was returned to juniors. If you think Sbisa is a stay at home Dman then you obviously didn't watch him in the NHL this year. He's fast and an excellent puck carrier. If anything he's seriously lacking in his defensive coverage at this point mainly because he's still so young and inexperienced. Sbisa was drafted to be our eventualy replacement for Timonen at quarterbacking the PP. Jones' only redeeming quality is that he jumps up in the offensive zone to punce on loose pucks and collect garbage goals. However, all too often instead of getting a good scoring chance himself the other team ends up getting an odd man rush and a goal because Jones gets caught up ice. Right now we have 2 very good puck moving dmen, 2 stay at home dmen, 1 hybrid and one POS that isn't worth a bag of pucks as far as I'm concerned. Sbisa is a puck moving dman waiting in the wings and we have Kevin Marshall as a heavy hitting stay at home 2nd pairing dman coming to the AHL next season. If anything you could say that the one thing the Flyer have been missing on their blueline for some time now is a dman with a BOOMING shot. We have some nice set-up guys back there but none who are known for putting the puck in the net (and no, Jones doesn't count).

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:04 PM
  #37
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
1: Edmonton says yes. Philly says no due to cap space.
Suggestion: Package with Gilbert which sends Gagne to the Oil
.

2: Would love to. Would also give this up for Nash highly ranked Nash.

3: Done, only because we could put the cap space to good use.

I'll tell you what, how about Philly sends Edm Jeoffry Lupul and our 09 3rd for Jordan Eberle. It's the same deal as the OP's deal but in reverse. a 24/25 yr old 50 pt winger and a 3rd for the other team #1 prospect. That's fair right??? If it's only our cap space that prevents Philly from making this deal then us sending you Lupul should work out since there isn't a cap issue with the trade.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:07 PM
  #38
Andrew B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
1: Edmonton says yes. Philly says no due to cap space.
Suggestion: Package with Gilbert which sends Gagne to the Oil.

2: Would love to. Would also give this up for Nash highly ranked Nash.

3: Done, only because we could put the cap space to good use.
If you compare the contract given to Blake Wheeler (2.875), the cap space is comprable. Also I am not sure the Oilers want Gagne. Not that beggers can be choosers, but it makes no sense to give up assets for a 30 year old.

2.) Don't want to trade Nash. I am just at the point where the Oilers need a 3rd line center that can actually win faceoffs to take some of the minutes from Horcoff. I also feel we have someone of equal value in Brule, the difference being that Brule has more intensity, and plays wing better.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I'll tell you what, how about Philly sends Edm Jeoffry Lupul and our 09 3rd for Jordan Eberle. It's the same deal as the OP's deal but in reverse. a 24/25 yr old 50 pt winger and a 3rd for the other team #1 prospect. That's fair right??? If it's only our cap space that prevents Philly from making this deal then us sending you Lupul should work out since there isn't a cap issue with the trade.
You don't have an '09 3rd.

O'Sullivan is younger, and on a better contract.

You know what, I will give you that the 1st trade could use some tweaking. No need to go all Rambo, chillax, this is just a forum board.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:12 PM
  #40
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The last thing the Oilers need is to get younger. Trading established young players for draft picks is completely counter productive. The only one of those the Oilers might do is the first one, but even that doesn't seem very realistic (from either side's POV).

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04-06-2009, 09:14 PM
  #41
Andrew B
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
2 Edmonton would have to take some salary back, we are tight against the cap and are looking at spending some coin on a goalie this offseason.
What Salary did you have in mind that isn't Briere or Lupul?

Also, what goalie are you going to spend "coin" on?

No goalie going into Free Agency is worth spending more than 2.5 million on.

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04-06-2009, 09:17 PM
  #42
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The last thing the Oilers need is to get younger. Trading established young players for draft picks is completely counter productive. The only one of those the Oilers might do is the first one, but even that doesn't seem very realistic (from either side's POV).
Cap space is going to be too valuable moving forward, especially with spending to excess on Horcoff & Penner.

Also we have many Cogliano~esque players (Brule, Nilsson etc). If we can trade up into a top 5 and get an Elite Talent we would be fools not too.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:32 PM
  #43
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Cap space is going to be too valuable moving forward, especially with spending to excess on Horcoff & Penner.

Also we have many Cogliano~esque players (Brule, Nilsson etc). If we can trade up into a top 5 and get an Elite Talent we would be fools not too.
Cogliano is all of 1.133M against the cap, and if you trade him for a pick, you've still got to replace him on the roster. Add to that, you're getting a player who hasn't proven jack (and will probably demand more $ as a top 5 pick), so it doesn't really make sense on any level.

There are lots of ways to cut salary, and trading one of your top pairing defensemen (who also just happens to be only 25) is NOT a smart way to do it. Especially for a draft pick and a prospect (I don't know anything about Colton Sceviour). If you're not interested in improving the team and trading valuable roster players for lottery tickets, then it'd probably be smarter to get rid of the older vetrans, and not a guy who's still 5-6 years away from his prime.

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Cogliano is all of 1.133M against the cap, and if you trade him for a pick, you've still got to replace him on the roster. Add to that, you're getting a player who hasn't proven jack (and will probably demand more $ as a top 5 pick), so it doesn't really make sense on any level.

There are lots of ways to cut salary, and trading one of your top pairing defensemen (who also just happens to be only 25) is NOT a smart way to do it. Especially for a draft pick and a prospect (I don't know anything about Colton Sceviour). If you're not interested in improving the team and trading valuable roster players for lottery tickets, then it'd probably be smarter to get rid of the older vetrans, and not a guy who's still 5-6 years away from his prime.
yes except Gilbert is by far the most attractive one of the bunch. and is also expendable with Grebby playing better than him, and Smid being worthy of top 4 minutes.

Brule won't get more than 1.5

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
You don't have an '09 3rd.

O'Sullivan is younger, and on a better contract.

You know what, I will give you that the 1st trade could use some tweaking. No need to go all Rambo, chillax, this is just a forum board.
O'Sullivan is 1 year younger and not as good of a scorer as Lupul and O'Sullivans contract isn't THAT much better than Lupuls. And I do believe we have a 3rd this year, just not our own.

Honestly, I wasn't going all Rambo on you or anyone else, I'm accepting that a 50 pt 24/25yr old and a 3rd is worth an ELITE prospect. I'm telling you that I want in on this game. I want to offer a 2nd line winger (or 3rd line winger as O'Sullivan CLEARLY would be on the Flyers) and a 3rd rnd pick that most likely WON'T turn into a top NHL player for an elite prospect expected to be a 1st line franchise type player. If you honestly think that the original trade really only needs a "little" tweeking then the deal I have proposed would only need a little tweeking too right??? I'll tell you what, we'll throw in Randy Jones wth the deal. He's a puck moving dman. Honestly though, if Lupul and a 3rd only needs to be increased a little to get Eberle then we can give you an honest defensive prospect in either Ratchuk or Bodrov. Bodrov is having a very good year in Russia and Homgren pretty much said he'll be on the Flyers next season. Not the AHL or in Russia but ON THE FLYERS. He's a legit solid 2nd paing prospect. Ratchuk is a decently skilled, fast, puck moving dman. He's a little under sized and can get knocked off the puck but he could play bottom pairing now with the potential to be a decent 2nd pairing player. If you only need to sweeten the deal a little to get an elite prospect then one of these 2 should honestly get it done. Now if you are telling me that adding in a prospect like Ratchuk or Bodrov along with Lupul and a 3rd isn't anywhere close to enough to get Eberle then do you honestly still believe that O'sullivan and a 3rd is anywhere close to enough to get JVR???

Whenever I look to make an offer, I try to make a similar trade but in reverse. This will tell me 1) if I'm over valuing the players I want to ditch and under valuing the one I'm asking for, and 2) if maybe I'm giving up too much (usually you HAVE to give up more than you are getting if you are the one initialting the trade).

Eberle = JVR - it's pretty even between the 2 of them.
O'Sullivan = Lupul - O'S is 1 mil cheaper but also not quite as good so it's a wash
a 3rd = a 3rd

Thus, Lupul + 3rd for Eberle is nearly equal to O'Sullivan + 3rd for JVR. If you would be willing to do one then you MUST be willing to accept the other or else you are a hypocrate. If you really really want to get JVR then ask yourself what the Flyers would have to give up to get Eberle. then find similar players/prospect/picks on Edm's side and replace Eberle with JVR. Show us both deals. Chances are that if you were actually honest and fair that you'd get about a 50/50 split from the fans on both teams about each trade.

Here's a little clue for everyone wanting to make trade proposals. If all the fans for one team are all for it and all the fans from the other team are against then it's a very lopsided proposal regardless of what you may think.

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