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Injuries vs attitude

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03-17-2004, 10:06 AM
  #1
Forechecker
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Injuries vs attitude

THe comments about Jagr's "chronic" injuries, and the prospect that Kasper is sitting it out brings up an interesting point, and one the Tom Coughlin is addressing over at Giants Stadium (and was mentioned on NPR this morning): at what point do "chronic" injuries become mental? Slats made this comment about Bure and his knee being psychosematic (sp?). If Jagr is happy to be here, and wants to succeed, I believe the groin will be less of an issue. He clearly wasn't happy in DC, and the groin "flared" a lot. Kasper may not be happy, may not want to be involved with the rebuilding, and therefore hi sinjuries aren't healing/

I'm not saying this is true, but something to think about. The brain/mental state of a person can do a lot for or against the healing process. Also, the attitude of the indvidual, look how hard and strong Richter and Leetch came back from injuries, mostly, I believe, becasue they wanted to be here, wanted the team to succeed, and don't believe in taking games off. Can others say the same?

Thoughts?

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Old
03-17-2004, 10:23 AM
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It's gotta be those lazy Euro's :p

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Old
03-17-2004, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker
THe comments about Jagr's "chronic" injuries, and the prospect that Kasper is sitting it out brings up an interesting point, and one the Tom Coughlin is addressing over at Giants Stadium (and was mentioned on NPR this morning): at what point do "chronic" injuries become mental? Slats made this comment about Bure and his knee being psychosematic (sp?). If Jagr is happy to be here, and wants to succeed, I believe the groin will be less of an issue. He clearly wasn't happy in DC, and the groin "flared" a lot. Kasper may not be happy, may not want to be involved with the rebuilding, and therefore hi sinjuries aren't healing/

I'm not saying this is true, but something to think about. The brain/mental state of a person can do a lot for or against the healing process. Also, the attitude of the indvidual, look how hard and strong Richter and Leetch came back from injuries, mostly, I believe, becasue they wanted to be here, wanted the team to succeed, and don't believe in taking games off. Can others say the same?

Thoughts?
There might be something to that. Jagr and Bure both love to play and want to play here. His groin is balky and that is the exact reason why I would shut him down for the remainder of the season.

As far as Kaspar is concerned, if he is unhappy he should simply offer to restructure his contract. He came here for the money. He also should have been bright enough to realize that the team he went to had not made the playoffs in five seasons. But he still took the money and came.

I also think, however, that some of these vets get comfortable because they are not challenged. Until three weeks ago, there was no real youth to speak of and the coaching staff certainly was not going to play said scant youth. So there was no urgency. They also realized that the majority of their contracts were unmovable.

What I don't understand is Sather was the GM of a team that one a Stanley Cup with a youth line playing together and playing important minutes. So why couldn't he find room for youth on a team that is not even a playoff team?

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03-17-2004, 03:47 PM
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Or it could be that Kaspar just has a broken leg????? Sometimes players are just injured ... he didn't stub his toe ...

Jagr has played through the groin, and I think he's stupid to do it, because I'd rather he shut down and not injure it severely, get healthy and ready for next year.

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03-17-2004, 06:15 PM
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I thought it was understood...

that Kaspar would be out until March/April as a result of his injury. I thought it was a pretty serious injury at the time. And Kaspar's one to play through pain. No sense coming back at this point - he might as well continue to strengthen the leg, skate over the Summer, and come to camp fresh and ready to go.

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03-17-2004, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
that Kaspar would be out until March/April as a result of his injury. I thought it was a pretty serious injury at the time. And Kaspar's one to play through pain. No sense coming back at this point - he might as well continue to strengthen the leg, skate over the Summer, and come to camp fresh and ready to go.
I agree. Also gives us a chance to look at some of the defensive prospects a little more closely. Rather than filling up that spot with a vet. Kind of pointless now since the season is over. Let's look at the kids and see what they got and hopefully we have some keepers for next year and the future.

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Old
03-18-2004, 12:44 AM
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Oh yeah, it was all in Bure's head! Yep, the guy is mentally soft, that's why he was having trouble walking, much less skating.

Give me a break.

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03-18-2004, 06:30 AM
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Seriously BR...

Bure's knees are so bad that doctors basically told him that his career may (or is likely I forget) be over. There has been so much damage over the years that it's non-repairable. Sather's truly one of a kind in saying that. He really has a disgusting arrogance about him that truly dates him as a dinosaur (I'm thinking that in his day, all those good 'ol Canadian boys would play through anything - then work in the Summers to make ends meet).

On Kaspar - after reading the Journal article, he's committed to next season with the Rangers. Why come back with only two games left in the season, when the knee/leg likely isn't as strong as it will be in a month or so? Might as well get it to 105% at this point. He's hopeful that he'll play in the World's, to get some timing back, and will work hard in the Summer and be ready for camp...hopefully with something to prove. I think that's the right decision.

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03-18-2004, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
Oh yeah, it was all in Bure's head! Yep, the guy is mentally soft, that's why he was having trouble walking, much less skating.

Give me a break.
Right on, Brook. To say that Bure's injury was in his head is simply moronic. The guy genuienly enjoyed playing in NY. His retirement has nothing to do w/ "psycho-semantics".

"Why come back with only two games left in the season, when the knee/leg likely isn't as strong as it will be in a month or so? "

AGreed w/ you as well, Fletch. Why come back and play 2 games in what is a lost season?

I think that taking Coughlin's quote that he used for the Giants and to try to apply it to the Ragners is a little off. Kasper's broken knee was certainly not in his mind. Bure's wrecked knees were a reality that Jackass conveintly ignored when making the trade for him. Jagr's groin has been a chronic problem for years now. It's not like these injuries suddenly appeared this year.

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03-18-2004, 08:38 AM
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It takes some serious ignorance to accuse a guy who tore his ACL twice and had 6 or 7 surgeries on his knees of being "mental" about the injury.

Essentially, if you tear the same ACL twice, your knee is shot forever.

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03-18-2004, 09:15 AM
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I wasn't necessarily agreeing with Sather re: Bure, but we've seen other skaters (Richter) come back from multiple knee injuries. If, in fact, Bure's knees were so shot, why keep playing? Why sign the contract?

My only point is, that injuries can be magnified if the desire of the individual to get healthy isn't there. Why do we some players recuperate more quickly (aside from age, which is a whole other issue), and some don't?

Jagr's groin seems less of an issue with the Rangers, outside the one major flare-up, maybe because he's EXCITED to be here, and WANTS to play? Maybe some players who aren't up to being in the New York spotlight aren't that thrilled with being on the team and take more time to return? Dunham, perhaps? I don't know, mere speculation.

Bure, Kasper, and others may have grevious injuries, and maybe that aren't connected to their will to play for the Rangers, and maybe they just aren't cashing checks, but Kasper and Bure both have played with indifference in the past, and not to the level we expected when we signed them. Both have had lots of garbage heaped on them, and may not look forward to returning to the ice to face the fans and media, who knows? Maybe the severity of their injuries have made them depressed and slowed the healing process?

I wish no ill will towards either of them, and hope they both recuperate fully, and my only point, is that the attitude of the individual towards healing their body is very related to their will to heal.

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Old
03-18-2004, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker
I wasn't necessarily agreeing with Sather re: Bure, but we've seen other skaters (Richter) come back from multiple knee injuries.
So did Bure. He came back from 2nd torn ACL to score 58 and 59 goals. Does that not constitute a comeback in your mind?

Quote:
If, in fact, Bure's knees were so shot, why keep playing? Why sign the contract?
Because he is an athlete? Because he loves to play? Because he was hoping that the knee will be ok?

As far as your Richter/Bure comparison:

Bure torn the same ACL twice. Richter tore ACL in one knee, then in the other. Richter's situation was horrid; but at least each knee wasn't ruined completely. Also, Bure's knee didn't give out until a few years later. Since Richter retired shortly after the comeback, we don't know how his knee would have been in the long-run.

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Old
03-18-2004, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker
I wish no ill will towards either of them, and hope they both recuperate fully, and my only point, is that the attitude of the individual towards healing their body is very related to their will to heal.
What are you talking about? Bure is a fitness fanatic. His work ethic coming back from injuries is legendary.

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Old
03-18-2004, 10:25 AM
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in fact, some doctors think he actually has trained TOO hard in the past, and thats the reason why his knees are in the shape they are today. i dunno if that even makes sense, but it does give you an idea as to how hard he works out.

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03-18-2004, 10:45 AM
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You bring up good points, Forechecker...

although Bure's knees have been proven to not be medically fit to play hockey. Several injuries and a couple surgeries have done him in. And Bure has, in the past, worked extremely hard to come back. He tried it with the Rangers, and heck, in '94, he was spending time in the hyperbolic chamber to help him along.

As for Dunham and his groin flare-ups...well, it seemed as though his groin flared up mostly when he was working more and more. I think there's something to that. Heck, Richter had groin problems from time-to-time. It's inevitable as a Ranger goalie as you're way too active as a result of the team in front of you.

And as for Kaspar...the original date for him to return was at the end of March. The guy would be ready to go, but there's no sense. He has a desire to return, but it's better for him to continue to strengthen the leg for another month, since he now has that luxury, and then start playing in the World's, which he plans to attend if asked. So I don't see a lack of desire there.

And as for Jags...there may be something to what's being said. He has a groin problem, but depending on the team's circumstances, he likely decides if he will play or not play.

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03-18-2004, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
Bure's knees are so bad that doctors basically told him that his career may (or is likely I forget) be over. There has been so much damage over the years that it's non-repairable. Sather's truly one of a kind in saying that. He really has a disgusting arrogance about him that truly dates him as a dinosaur (I'm thinking that in his day, all those good 'ol Canadian boys would play through anything - then work in the Summers to make ends meet).

On Kaspar - after reading the Journal article, he's committed to next season with the Rangers. Why come back with only two games left in the season, when the knee/leg likely isn't as strong as it will be in a month or so? Might as well get it to 105% at this point. He's hopeful that he'll play in the World's, to get some timing back, and will work hard in the Summer and be ready for camp...hopefully with something to prove. I think that's the right decision.
Oh Fletch, I'm sorry, I thought it would be universally understood that my contempt on the Bure injury is wholly placed on TLB. Bure has done more on a permanently damaged knee than I imagined possible. I never doubted that his problem was purely physical and continue to be amazed that Bure is even thinking about, much less working out actively in the hope of playing again.

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