HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

All-Time Draft #11, Part 2

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-08-2009, 11:52 PM
  #251
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,232
vCash: 873
PM sent, I'll be back in an hour and a half.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 12:35 AM
  #252
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Ron Francis this late is criminal. Shocked at that. Maltsev is still too low, though that surprises me less.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 01:25 AM
  #253
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,232
vCash: 873
I have the Leafs pick at 160.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 02:31 AM
  #254
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Well, after a lot of thought, I came to one simple conclusion. This is probably the lowest this player has ever gone. He's the best at what he does, and what he does isn't very nice.

A winner, a leader and the best defensive forward ever.

Bob Gainey, LW

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.

Last edited by Nalyd Psycho: 04-09-2009 at 03:07 AM.
Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 03:09 AM
  #255
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It is not my desire to see us honour good performances and turn a blind eye to bad ones. You may just be trying to find bad ones where they either don't exist or are more frequent in all top players' resumes due to circumstances and therefore must be taken with a grain of salt.
It's certainly possible that I'm going too far. Any form of meaningful criticism of the playoff records of prewar players is probably, however, regression to the mean in an ATD sense, considering the ludicrous microscope more modern players are often put under. I can accept being wrong much more easily than I can accept not even attempting to make rational comparisons and/or throwing around superlatives with little attempt at justification.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 04:23 AM
  #256
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
In regards to Nighbor being a better playoff performer than Lalonde, he had 35 points in 41 playoff games and of course played outstanding defense. He had one performance that I would guarantee would be Smythe worthy based on what I read in The Trail. He was also excellent in 1920. Other than that there are a few decent performances and a couple that, offensively, were poor.
With the exception of the 1921 Cup finals series, the only offensive performances in Nighbor's playoff resume that are questionable occured after his scoring prime, which ended in 20-21. He remained a productive player (and Hart winner), but his days as a peak scorer were over. Through the end of his scoring prime, Nighbor scored 1-5-6 in 4 NHL playoff games, 1-1-2 in 2 NHA playoff games and 10-8-18 in 13 Cup Finals games (including the bad year), with three Cup wins and two worthy Conn-Smythe performances based on scoring, alone. And that's before we take into account the fact that he was arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time.

Lalonde's NHL playoff record is short and sweet: 2 serieses including the drubbing of the Sens - a spectacular 15-4-19 in 7 games with an asterisk attached. Other than that, it doesn't compare to his regular season resume. Newsy's NHA playoff record is 1-0-1 in 3 games. He scored 10-0-10 in 13 Cup Finals games, never led his team in scoring or put up a Conn-Smythe worthy performance (as far as I can tell) and won only a single Cup in his long career. I am ignoring Lalonde's experience as a 19 year old on the Toronto Professionals in a Cup challenge, which Toronto lost. For the most part, I don't really know what to make of Cup Challenge games. It should also be noted that Frank Nighbor's teams were, on the whole, better than Lalonde's, and that certainly contributed to Nighbor's superior playoff record. On the other hand, teams almost always follow their best players to success or failure.

It's not as hard to make sense of old playoff records as we've made it out to be. Nighbor was clearly better even before defensive value is taken into account.

edit: I should make something clear. I consider Lalonde a "good" playoff performer. He was not a choke artist, as far as I can tell. He was second in postseason team scoring for the 1916 Habs and second again for the 1919 Habs, with an unpretty 1917 performance sandwiched between them in a badly losing effort. Such a postseason record is not an embarrassment to Lalonde, but considering his level of regular season dominance, it's hardly a compliment to him, either. The entire point of this argument is to undo the overrating of Lalonde (whose hype machine grew to grotesque proportions at one point), rather than to make him look like a loser, which he clearly was not.


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-09-2009 at 04:36 AM.
Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 05:05 AM
  #257
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
So, I REALLY hope VanI sent a list, wouldn't it be ironic if he hadn't?
It would be hypocritical if I had expected to possibly be away and I hadn't sent a list since I advised it as a recommended course of action for others.

Irony is you making the statement you just did, followed not long after by the following statement of yours and the resulting fact of the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I'll be back in an hour and a half.
That was five hours ago.

FACT: we are two hours and a half into EB's clock now. ... THAT is ironic!

VanIslander is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 05:26 AM
  #258
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
What a bunch of vicious ******** we are. Sometimes I surprise myself with just how passionate I can get about a frikkin all-time hockey draft.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:00 AM
  #259
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,232
vCash: 873
Sorry guys, but I sent a list to both Pitseleh and Shawnmullin.

... However, this list was one player short: Left Winger Bob Gainey

So when Nalyd will consider selecting another player, I will take Gainey and move on.



....





Ok kidding I'll make my selection now. But I was very sure Nalyd wouldn't take Gainey. I don't know why I was that confident!

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:04 AM
  #260
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,232
vCash: 873
Defenseman Alexander Ragulin

Sorry Chaos, but blame it on Nalyd Psycho!

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:20 AM
  #261
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,232
vCash: 873
The case for Bob Gainey:



Stanley Cup Winner (1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1986)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1989)
Conn Smythe Trophy (1979)
Frank J. Selke Trophy (1977*, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)
Team Captain (1981-1989)
NHL All-Star Games (1977, 1978, 1980, 1981)
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame (1992)
#23 Retired by the Montreal Canadiens (2008)

"I consider Gainey the world's best all-around player." - XXXXXX XXXXXXXX
"Bob Gainey is just as important to the Canadiens as Guy Lafleur" - Larry Robinson

Top-6 Selke Nomination (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 6th)
Top-5 All-Star Nomination (4th, 4th)

- #86 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players
- Ultimate Hockey named Bob Gainey the best Defensive Forward of the 1970's
- Ultimate Hockey named Bob Gainey the best Penalty-Killer of the 1970's
- Ultimate Hockey named Bob Gainey the best Corner Man of the 1970's

Quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF
Termed the world's best all-around player by Soviet national team coach XXXXXX XXXXXXXX, Bob Gainey brought many elements to the Montreal Canadiens during his 16-year NHL career. The burly left winger was a tenacious competitor, relentless checker, respected team leader and capable contributor on the offense. His presence on the Habs' roster helped the team win the Stanley Cup five times in the decade between 1976 and 1986.

As a rookie, Gainey demonstrated his commitment to defensive hockey and his clean but feared bodychecking. He showed even more poise as a sophomore in 1974-75, when he played on the team's second line with Jacques Lemaire and Yvan Cournoyer. Following his third NHL season, Gainey was picked to represent his country in the inaugural Canada Cup in 1976 and his combination of speed, tenacity and physical play enabled him to fill an important role on the victorious Canadian contingent.

Gainey's style of play and ability to check and skate with the NHL's top forwards inspired the league to create a new post-season award. Beginning in 1978, the NHL presented the Frank J. Selke Trophy to the top defensive forward in the game. Fittingly, Gainey was the recipient in each of the first four years it was awarded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Take a look at Bob Gainey's career statistics. This is perhaps the most obvious case that statistics do not tell the whole story.

Gainey was a defensive specialist. He was constantly bumping, grinding, tormenting, frustrating and nullifying his opponents. The NHL didn't hand out an award for the game's best defensive forward until 1978, and Gainey's awesome largely responsible for the creation of the award. Gainey was the first recipient of the Frank J. Selke Trophy and won it 4 years in a row.

Gainey regarded his own goals and assists as icing on the cake. Because of his specific role with the Canadiens, he was never able to really get a chance to show he could contribute offensively. But nonetheless he was an extremely important cog of 5 Stanley Cup championships and a Canada Cup championship.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:29 AM
  #262
camperjr
Registered User
 
camperjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,269
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Well, after a lot of thought, I came to one simple conclusion. This is probably the lowest this player has ever gone. He's the best at what he does, and what he does isn't very nice.

A winner, a leader and the best defensive forward ever.

Bob Gainey, LW
, I picked him last year, wanted him again. Nice Pick

camperjr is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:33 AM
  #263
camperjr
Registered User
 
camperjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,269
vCash: 500
Someone want to take a list for the weekend? Easter, got to go out, just not 100% postive I can make it.

camperjr is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 06:37 AM
  #264
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
I can take it.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 08:12 AM
  #265
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,947
vCash: 500
Clock is 8 hours, Hoff is at minus-2 hours and is two hours into his clock anyways, so... 8-2-2=4

154 - AlanHoff - Dauphin Kings ON THE CLOCK (for four more hours)

155 - chaosrevolver & Boootthh - Team Soviet Union (up soon)
156 - Nalyd Psycho - Minnesota Fighting Saints
157 - nik jr. - lada togliatti
158 - ToskaLOL - Glace Bay Miners
159 - GodBlessCanada & raleh - New Westminster Bruins
160 - Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs

VanIslander is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 09:53 AM
  #266
DoMakc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 938
vCash: 500
i think we give Hoff Steve Downie and let chaos pick.

DoMakc is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 10:34 AM
  #267
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
With the exception of the 1921 Cup finals series, the only offensive performances in Nighbor's playoff resume that are questionable occured after his scoring prime, which ended in 20-21. He remained a productive player (and Hart winner), but his days as a peak scorer were over. Through the end of his scoring prime, Nighbor scored 1-5-6 in 4 NHL playoff games, 1-1-2 in 2 NHA playoff games and 10-8-18 in 13 Cup Finals games (including the bad year), with three Cup wins and two worthy Conn-Smythe performances based on scoring, alone. And that's before we take into account the fact that he was arguably the greatest defensive forward of all time.
There is no doubt he'd have won the 1915 Smythe. 1920 is possible, even probable. Not for sure.

Quote:
I am ignoring Lalonde's experience as a 19 year old on the Toronto Professionals in a Cup challenge, which Toronto lost. For the most part, I don't really know what to make of Cup Challenge games.
If we're talking about players on dominant early dynasties racking up points against teams with no business challenging them, then it gets sticky. If you're talking about a player on the other side of the coin, like we are here, there should be no question what to make of it. Lalonde was 18, his team had two MLD-caliber players on it and lost 6-4 and he had two of their goals. That is a great feather in his cap, individually. Obviously we count this.

Quote:
Lalonde's NHL playoff record is short and sweet: 2 serieses including the drubbing of the Sens - a spectacular 15-4-19 in 7 games with an asterisk attached. Other than that, it doesn't compare to his regular season resume. Newsy's NHA playoff record is 1-0-1 in 3 games. He scored 10-0-10 in 13 Cup Finals games, never led his team in scoring or put up a Conn-Smythe worthy performance (as far as I can tell) and won only a single Cup in his long career.

......It's not as hard to make sense of old playoff records as we've made it out to be. Nighbor was clearly better even before defensive value is taken into account.
He led the 1916 Habs in playoff points - Tied with ****** *****.

Also, in Montreal's two-and-out in 1918, he led them outright with four goals (no one else had more than one) and two assists (three players had one) and six points (next best had two, the whole team had 12)

And, no matter how the last game in 1919 went, Lalonde had to be the Smythe winner after the NHA final. Give him that, at least.

Also, his 4 pointless WCHL games at age 36 and 37 have to be excused if you extend the same courtesy to Nighbor.

If we remove those 4 games, keep the one as an 18-year old, and cut in half what he did against Ottawa in 1919, (and bump up the half point) you're left with 26 points (23-3) in 24 games. If you cut off Nighbor's last two playoffs (he was just 34 and 35, but OK) he's got 33 points (15-18) in 33 games. Lalonde has an 8% edge in points per games, and a 111% edge in goals per game. Remember, this is after adjusting his 1919 NHL final series down by half.

Then of course there is Newsy's leadership and physical play, and Nighbor's defensive ability. We could go back and forth for weeks on those things attempting to say one or the other gave someone the edge. In any case I don't see why you should say Nighbor was "clearly" better.

Quote:
It should also be noted that Frank Nighbor's teams were, on the whole, better than Lalonde's, and that certainly contributed to Nighbor's superior playoff record. On the other hand, teams almost always follow their best players to success or failure.
Yeah, likewise, I don't want to put too much or too little emphasis on that. In 1918 and 1919 there is nothing more Lalonde could have done to lift his team to victory. He was outstanding.

Quote:
edit: I should make something clear. I consider Lalonde a "good" playoff performer. He was not a choke artist, as far as I can tell. He was second in postseason team scoring for the 1916 Habs and second again for the 1919 Habs, with an unpretty 1917 performance sandwiched between them in a badly losing effort. Such a postseason record is not an embarrassment to Lalonde, but considering his level of regular season dominance, it's hardly a compliment to him, either. The entire point of this argument is to undo the overrating of Lalonde (whose hype machine grew to grotesque proportions at one point), rather than to make him look like a loser, which he clearly was not.
He was first both years - once tied with another HHOFer, another time he lapped the rest of his team in scoring - see above.

I should also point out that I'm as big a Nighbor fan as I am a Lalonde fan.


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-09-2009 at 12:00 PM.
seventieslord is online now  
Old
04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
  #268
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Ok kidding I'll make my selection now. But I was very sure Nalyd wouldn't take Gainey. I don't know why I was that confident!
Honestly, I was surprised that I was taking Bob Gainey, not the type of pick one would expect from me. But, I've always said if I felt well set up on the blueline and up front that I'd take him. And with Rob Blake and Marty Barry gone, my plans went belly up. So, I just could not think of any reason he wouldn't be a great addition to the Fighting Saints.

Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:18 AM
  #269
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,787
vCash: 500
Gainey's an interesting pick for this point in the draft. I wouldn't go defensive forward in 6 - I always questioned it when my buddy Murphy would pick Gainey in 3 or 4.

I don't doubt that Gainey's the best third line guy in the draft. And I think he's one of the best players available. If he was an RW, I might give him a long look in the sixth round. But with the glut of excellent checking LWs available, I don't think there's enough of a difference from Gainey to the guys I have at 2, 3 and 4 to justify picking Gainey in the sixth round.

Only way I pick Gainey at this point is if I've already made a lot of picks, and can afford to start my third line, or if I have a glut of picks coming up, and I'll be able to find the necessary secondary scorers. Gainey as the fifth or sixth guy on my team? Wouldn't do it. Gainey as the seventh or eighth guy on my team. Would do it, if that's the direction I wanted to take.

God Bless Canada is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:20 AM
  #270
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Only way I pick Gainey at this point is if I've already made a lot of picks, and can afford to start my third line, or if I have a glut of picks coming up, and I'll be able to find the necessary secondary scorers. Gainey as the fifth or sixth guy on my team? Wouldn't do it. Gainey as the seventh or eighth guy on my team. Would do it, if that's the direction I wanted to take.
That's the thing. By midway through the 11th round, I'll have made 14 picks. I'm not so worried about depth.

Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:34 AM
  #271
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I don't doubt that Gainey's the best third line guy in the draft... with the glut of excellent checking LWs available, I don't think there's enough of a difference from Gainey to the guys I have at 2, 3 and 4 to justify picking Gainey in the sixth round.
Murphy knows what he's doing: Gainey is NOT a third liner in an all-time context (in any context), he's a top-2-line role player, a 15-17 minutes a night guy at the very least, and that entails playing no less than second line minutes and the penalty kill.

GBC, you thought last year that a 3-season Ovechkin was a 1st liner in an all-time context (that's where you put him) handling first line minutes, yet wouldn't put Gainey any more than on a third line?

They are both second liners in an all-time context imo, at least at the moment, all things considered.

The truth of the matter is that there are different ways to see team building. The whole notion of a shutdown third line seemed absurd to me at first and then sensical in a historical appreciation sense, especially since many career 2nd liners are chosen to play ATD 3rd lines. Fine. Gainey would be an exception. Though you yourself have said you don't see a big difference between him and several others. I disagree. Gainey was something wholly remarkable and creating the Selke to be able to honour his ability is a legacy richly deserved.

NOTICE to fellow Foster Hewitt division GMs. Our first line right wingers are going to find it much harder to get passes and make plays with the puck. The Twins' Maltsev, the Bruins' Cook, the Soviets' Bure, the Braves' Mikhailov, all first class scoring right wingers that just took a 20% hit on goal scoring ability when playing the Fighting Saints.

The right pick for this division. Though as a 2nd rounder he ought to go no earlier than the 7th round, close-e-nough!


Last edited by VanIslander: 04-09-2009 at 11:42 AM.
VanIslander is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:37 AM
  #272
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Murphy knows what he's doing: Gainey is NOT a third liner in an all-time context (in any context), he's a top-2-line role player, a 15-17 minutes a night guy at the very least, and that entails playing no less than second line minutes and the penalty kill.
At this point, I may use him on the 1st line. Depends who's available when. But, he probably would compliment Bentley/Jagr nicely.

And even though it's not done yet, my 1st PK unit is easily my best yet.

Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:45 AM
  #273
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
At this point, I may use him on the 1st line.
You don't want your top scoring line to go against the opposition's top scoring line if you can help it, with home ice advantage of last shift change and changes on the fly. You want Gainey playing on a two-way line that goes against the opposition's top line. The Oilers were masterful with putting Messier's line out against the best of the opposition and having Gretzky not take face-offs against the best skilled lines of the other team.

VanIslander is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
  #274
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You don't want your top scoring line to go against the opposition's top scoring line if you can help it, with home ice advantage of last shift change and changes on the fly. You want Gainey playing on a two-way line that goes against the opposition's top line. The Oilers were masterful with putting Messier's line out against the best of the opposition and having Gretzky not take face-offs against the best skilled lines of the other team.
Yeah, I just realized I can do something I've always wanted to do, the question now is when to put the plan into action...

Nalyd Psycho is offline  
Old
04-09-2009, 12:01 PM
  #275
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,947
vCash: 500
154 - AlanHoff - Dauphin Kings - skipped

155 - chaosrevolver & Boootthh - Team Soviet Union - ON THE CLOCK
156 - Nalyd Psycho - Minnesota Fighting Saints
157 - nik jr. - lada togliatti
158 - ToskaLOL - Glace Bay Miners
159 - GodBlessCanada & raleh - New Westminster Bruins
160 - Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
161 - EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons

VanIslander is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.