HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

All-Time Draft #11, Part 2

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-08-2009, 12:32 AM
  #151
raleh
Registered User
 
raleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 1,764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I didn't mention this earlier, but...

When I saw the draft order, I didn't know who we would get in the first round, or the second round, etc. But I knew we would get Brewer in the fifth round, simply because I knew we were picking before pappy, so pappy wouldn't be able to get to Brewer before we did. And I think pappy and I are the only ones who would rate Brewer among the very, very best No. 2's in the draft.

pappy and I have fairly different views on the game, but there are about 10 or 12 players that pappy and I rate quite similar, and they're players who I think we rate higher than anyone else - Schmidt, the Bentley's, Jackson and Brewer among them. (I believe our goalie is also higher on pappy's list than anyone else's).

And raleh, no mentioning undrafted players. You must be wasted
.

Egad. My bad! It's been a rough day.

raleh is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 01:36 AM
  #152
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,214
vCash: 500
I've seen at least a dozen game reports from 1927/28 and 1928/29 that had Babe Siebert as a defenseman and Nels Stewart as a wing (and none that had them at LW and C respectively). So I guess Siebert playing defense late in his career wasn't just because he had slowed down. But by 1929/30 they were reunited on the S-line. Siebert also played defense during his entire time with the Bruins as far as I can tell.

I came across an article that said some coaches/managers around the league were already calling Syl Apps the greatest centre ever in 1939.

Apparently Charlie Conacher's shot was so hard that on occasion it would break the goalie's leg through their padding. Ouch.

pitseleh is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 01:50 AM
  #153
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
On Nels Stewart's playoff performances:

As mentioned, it was an era that saw dramatic drops in playoff scoring. To look at his stat line, you'd think he disappeared in the playoffs, but here's something quite surprising, even when the playoff situation is taken into account: In eight of his twelve playoff appearances, he led or tied for the team lead in either goals or points (sometimes both).
This is an argument that doesn't work. To wit: in six of his nine playoff appearances, Marcel Dionne led or tied for the team lead in either goals or points (sometimes both).

What you say?

But it's true. The problem is that the playoff collapse of those Kings teams was generally Dionne's fault. They looked to him for leadership, and he provided mediocrity. Good enough to lead the team in scoring, yes, but not good enough to lead them anywhere in the playoffs. This "the team didn't play well" argument as an excuse for poor performance doesn't work when we're talking about the best player on the team and when the matchup is fairly even, as it often was during Stewart's career. At least Dionne can say that his teams were consistently overmatched.

Another good example: a certain modern center who is widely regarded as a playoff disaster, if we exclude his rookie season as a 4th liner and the year he went into the postseason with broken ribs, has led his team in scoring in 4 out of 6 playoff runs. Does that make this guys' playoff performances "decent", or are they still as craptastic as they look on TV? The "my team didn't play well" excuse doesn't work when your team is evenly matched and you're the best player.

Do I think Nels Stewart's playoff record is as bad as Marcel Dionne's? No. Outside of one series (the Cup finals in 1926 - Nels was actually nothing special in the two NHL playoff matchups leading up to that Finals berth), however, it is definitely poor - poorer, even, than I had thought before looking into it because his teams are actually a lot better than I had thought (somehow I had the picture of Nels skating for the New York Americans for his whole career). And that's the challenge of building a line or team around guys like Dionne and Stewart - they are immense talents, but need so much help to make the most of those talents, you just don't know where to start. The GM who can win one of these things with either of these guys playing a prominent (presumably 2nd line) role on his team will have my undying admiration, although in your case, pit, you already have it. I look forward to seeing what you do with Nels.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 02:02 AM
  #154
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,798
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I've seen at least a dozen game reports from 1927/28 and 1928/29 that had Babe Siebert as a defenseman and Nels Stewart as a wing (and none that had them at LW and C respectively). So I guess Siebert playing defense late in his career wasn't just because he had slowed down. But by 1929/30 they were reunited on the S-line. Siebert also played defense during his entire time with the Bruins as far as I can tell.

I came across an article that said some coaches/managers around the league were already calling Syl Apps the greatest centre ever in 1939.

Apparently Charlie Conacher's shot was so hard that on occasion it would break the goalie's leg through their padding. Ouch.
i have read similar things.

i read somewhere that siebert started his career as a d-man but was moved to LW b/c of an injury to stewart's regular LW.


i read something that quoted king clancy as saying he was once hit in the butt by a charlie conacher shot. clancy said it felt like a blow torch, and that he could not sit down for a week.

nik jr is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 02:28 AM
  #155
Jungosi
Registered User
 
Jungosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rendsburg / Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 881
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Jungosi
The Wacken Warriors select one of the early greats of the game Ernie "Moose" Johnson

By the way : I am sorry for not sending a list but I had to leave really early yesterday when there were about 10 picks left so I didn't have much of plan who to pick.

Jungosi is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 04:21 AM
  #156
DoMakc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 938
vCash: 500
Kilkenny Bustard select one of the best defencemen of the pre-BobbyOrr-era, from Hamilton, Ont., Harry Howell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Harvey
They donít come much better than Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile Francis
The thing that makes him the great hockey player he is, is that the quality of his game seldom varies. Some defensemen, they look like all-stars one night, or maybe for three games in a row, and then they tail off. But Harry, he's like the Rock of Gibraltar. Hockey is a game of mistakes, and Harry doesn't make many of them."

DoMakc is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 07:21 AM
  #157
Warm Cookies
Re-sign Kunitz
 
Warm Cookies's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 51,524
vCash: 500
The Killarney Country Bear Jamboree are excited to add to their defense corps a man who captained his team to the Cup twice during his 9 year tenure (he had won another before he was bestowed that honour); a big (for his time), durable, rugged blueliner who is not only considered one of the best shutdown men of his era, but who also finished in the top 5 in scoring at his position 4 times, someone very familiar to Mr. Morenz...



Sylvio Mantha

Warm Cookies is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 09:55 AM
  #158
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i have read similar things.

i read somewhere that siebert started his career as a d-man but was moved to LW b/c of an injury to stewart's regular LW.
If you go to the MLD10 roster thread and look at a "certain" team's coach's bio it mentions a bit about how Siebert was moved to D.

It was not due to slowing down at all, as pit mentioned he had read earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
The Wacken Warriors select one of the early greats of the game Ernie "Moose" Johnson
Wow, there just aren't any steals to be had this time. So much for getting a true #2 defenseman as a #3.

Mantha too? This bites.

seventieslord is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 10:00 AM
  #159
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Do I think Nels Stewart's playoff record is as bad as Marcel Dionne's? No. Outside of one series (the Cup finals in 1926 - Nels was actually nothing special in the two NHL playoff matchups leading up to that Finals berth), however, it is definitely poor - poorer, even, than I had thought before looking into it because his teams are actually a lot better than I had thought (somehow I had the picture of Nels skating for the New York Americans for his whole career).
I still fail to see how it's 'poor'. Even if you compltely ignore that playoff series, he's two points (in 50 games) away from having the same playoff PPG as Aurel Joliat and six points away from having the same playoff PPG as Bill Cook, and that's completely ignoring his best playoff run. If you ignore Bill Cook's or Joliat's run in 32/33 their playoff numbers look pretty mediocre too.

Looking back on the playoffs like without context can skew things too. Stewart wasn't the first line center on the Bruins, that was a guy who'll be picked in the next 100 picks who outscored him both of his full years there, so they weren't looking to him as the offensive leader of the team. In 31/32, apparently Stewart and his long time linemate were brilliant offensively and dominated but they ran into a hot goalie who stopped everything they threw his way. In 34/35, Stewart broke his hand with less than a month left in the season. Instead of sitting out he kept playing with it until the end of the season and went on to have a crappy finish to the season (fell down the scoring charts) and playoffs (1 point in 4 games). In 39/40, Stewart had planned on retiring but was brought back because the Americans couldn't find anyone to play for them and so he did a farewell tour where he wasn't much of a contributor.

pitseleh is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 10:05 AM
  #160
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,191
vCash: 500
Anyone else notice Zamboni Mania has built an all-French team so far?

seventieslord is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 10:26 AM
  #161
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I didn't mention this earlier, but...

When I saw the draft order, I didn't know who we would get in the first round, or the second round, etc. But I knew we would get Brewer in the fifth round, simply because I knew we were picking before pappy, so pappy wouldn't be able to get to Brewer before we did. And I think pappy and I are the only ones who would rate Brewer among the very, very best No. 2's in the draft.

pappy and I have fairly different views on the game, but there are about 10 or 12 players that pappy and I rate quite similar, and they're players who I think we rate higher than anyone else - Schmidt, the Bentley's, Jackson and Brewer among them. (I believe our goalie is also higher on pappy's list than anyone else's).

And raleh, no mentioning undrafted players. You must be wasted.
I knew we had absolutely no chance of getting Brewer when I saw you guys picking ahead of us. Yep, i really like brewer, schmidt, jackson and the bentley's And I got none of them. Surprised to see Jackson & doug Bentley fall so much. Thought everyone had forgot Doug & he would still be there at #137. IMO, Jackson & bentley were both steals. Really hard to figure Barber going ahead of doug.

pappyline is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 10:38 AM
  #162
DoMakc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 938
vCash: 500
chaos, you aren't going to play Bure on Fedorov's wing, are you? You know, they aren't the best friends.

DoMakc is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:11 AM
  #163
Jungosi
Registered User
 
Jungosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rendsburg / Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 881
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Jungosi
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
chaos, you aren't going to play Bure on Fedorov's wing, are you? You know, they aren't the best friends.
I think he is more desperate to find a left-winger to complete the "We banged Anna Kournikova Line"

Jungosi is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:14 AM
  #164
DoMakc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
I think he is more desperate to find a left-winger to complete the "We banged Anna Kournikova Line"
he can always take Iglesias, he sucks at hockey, but not as much as at singing

DoMakc is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:22 AM
  #165
Hedberg
MLD Glue Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,353
vCash: 500
Victoria selects LW Brendan Shanahan

1991 Canada Cup Champion
1994 First Team All-Star
1994 World Championship Gold Medal
1997 Stanley Cup Champion
1998 Stanley Cup Champion
2000 First Team All-Star
2002 Olympic Gold Medalist
2002 Stanley Cup Champion
2002 Second Team All-Star
Member of the Triple Gold Club
650 Career Goals

Hedberg is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:43 AM
  #166
shawnmullin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Swift Current
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,172
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to shawnmullin Send a message via MSN to shawnmullin
I happen to be online today so I'll make the pick. This is a guy both Pappy and I wanted, and with the recent run on D I'm really glad he's still available. With 827 points in 1024 games he could produce with the best of them. The Norris winner once even scored 39 goals in a season from the back end and "He averaged nearly a point a game, was rock solid in his own end of the rink and was a natural leader on and off the ice." (legends of hockey)

D Doug Wilson

shawnmullin is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:54 AM
  #167
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,838
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Can I leave a quick list with someone? I'm going out, and not sure when I'll be back.

arrbez is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:54 AM
  #168
DoMakc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Can I leave a quick list with someone? I'm going out, and not sure when I'll be back.
I'll be there

DoMakc is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 11:56 AM
  #169
Spitfire11
Registered User
 
Spitfire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,747
vCash: 500
I can take your list, but if camper didn't leave one with someone your pick probably won't come up until you get home anyways.

Spitfire11 is online now  
Old
04-08-2009, 12:00 PM
  #170
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,838
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Ok, I left my list with Sptifire. Thanks guys, although i suspect I'll be back to make the pick myself.

arrbez is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 12:11 PM
  #171
Jungosi
Registered User
 
Jungosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rendsburg / Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 881
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Jungosi
Someone there who can take my (relatively) long list? I won't be home all night so just in case we get another series started.

Jungosi is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 12:14 PM
  #172
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
Someone there who can take my (relatively) long list? I won't be home all night so just in case we get another series started.
I can.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 01:02 PM
  #173
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
If you ignore Bill Cook's or Joliat's run in 32/33 their playoff numbers look pretty mediocre too.
To be honest, I'm not completely in love with Bill Cook's playoff record, either, and I'm tired of giving every player from the 30's a free pass because of the era. The Rangers' stars (including Boucher) **** the bed offensively in 1929, and I can't find anything to redeem Cook's goose egg that season. The team made the finals that year on the strength of great defense and goaltending and could easily have won if their stars showed up, which they didn't. Other than that, I'd call Cook's playoff record "good", but that's a somewhat qualified good. It's certainly not jump-off-the-page-at-you-Joe-Sakic-good, which is what you want from an ATD 1st liner in tough matchups. It is for exactly this reason that I made sure to draft a center and left wing for that line who were both playoff studs. Nighbor was the clear BPA where I took him (IMO), but specifically Delvecchio was my choice (with a plethora of similar options available at left wing) because he was so good for so long in the postseason.

Quote:
Looking back on the playoffs like without context can skew things too. Stewart wasn't the first line center on the Bruins, that was a guy who'll be picked in the next 100 picks who outscored him both of his full years there, so they weren't looking to him as the offensive leader of the team.
Not being on a top line could easily have been helpful to Stewart's scoring. In fact, a good number of the best playoff performances from that era were put up by 2nd line players who avoided top unit checking assignments.

Quote:
In 31/32, apparently Stewart and his long time linemate were brilliant offensively and dominated but they ran into a hot goalie who stopped everything they threw his way.
Which goalie? Those Maroons played 2 games each against two different teams in the 1932 playoffs, and Stewart put up a combined 0-1-1 in that postseason. Were both goalies hot? It was also one of the poorest regular seasons of his prime. At what point was Nels dominant during that season?

Quote:
In 34/35, Stewart broke his hand with less than a month left in the season. Instead of sitting out he kept playing with it until the end of the season and went on to have a crappy finish to the season (fell down the scoring charts) and playoffs (1 point in 4 games).
I was not aware of that.

Quote:
In 39/40, Stewart had planned on retiring but was brought back because the Americans couldn't find anyone to play for them and so he did a farewell tour where he wasn't much of a contributor.
I don't punish great players for dropoffs after their prime (though I will reward them for great postseason performances after their prime), and 39/40 fits into that category for Stewart. As such, it is 100% irrelevant to me.

Generally speaking, I don't consider myself a GM who overemphasizes playoff credentials at the expense of talent, skillset, or body of work, but it is certainly one category that I consider carefully. I never have and will never slot a checkingline talent onto a scoringline because he had a few good playoffs, and I don't look kindly on teams thus assembled. That being said, all of history is a small sample size, from a certain point of view, and at some point results trump circumstances. It seems to me that players from the 1930's have gotten a lot of free passes vis-a-vis playoff performances while modern players get eviscerated for doing basically the same thing. In that respect, I think the ATD still has a ways to go before we achieve a balanced view of the history of hockey.

I sincerely hope your further research on Stewart is enlightening. I have already learned quite a bit in this conversation, and as you know, I am willing to admit when I have gotten something wrong, as Frank Boucher's tailor can attest. It is not my desire to denigrate a dead man for the sake of hurting an opponent, but rather to move the collective view of a certain group of players (in this case prewar forwards) closer to "reality", whatever that is. If "reality" turns out not to agree with my theories, then so be it. We still have a lot of work to do on the prewar players, especially when it comes to the playoffs.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
04-08-2009, 01:03 PM
  #174
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I knew we had absolutely no chance of getting Brewer when I saw you guys picking ahead of us. Yep, i really like brewer, schmidt, jackson and the bentley's And I got none of them. Surprised to see Jackson & doug Bentley fall so much. Thought everyone had forgot Doug & he would still be there at #137. IMO, Jackson & bentley were both steals. Really hard to figure Barber going ahead of doug.
I was very pleasantly surprised to be able to grab Doug Bentley so late. Didn't expect him to be there. Especially happy because IMO, the best player to have with Jagr is someone who provides speed on the rush and the backcheck, defensive responsibility, equally comfortable passing or shooting and doesn't need to control the puck to be effective. In other words, a guy like Doug Bentley.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is online now  
Old
04-08-2009, 01:23 PM
  #175
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
To be honest, I'm not completely in love with Bill Cook's playoff record, either, and I'm tired of giving every player from the 30's a free pass because of the era.
At the same time it's hard to discredit players when the vast majority of players had significant drops in playoff scoring during their careers. When you're talking about samples of 40-50 games fluctuations in scoring that could simply be attributed to luck over such a small series of games (+/- 3-5 points) can have a huge impact on what a playoff appears to be

Quote:
Not being on a top line could easily have been helpful to Stewart's scoring. In fact, a good number of the best playoff performances from that era were put up by 2nd line players who avoided top unit checking assignments.
Actually if you look at the list of the top playoff scorers from between the mid 1920s and the late 1930s almost exclusively the top scorers were players who were first liners on their respective teams. Just looking at the top playoff scoring seasons from 1926 to 1937 (Stewart's prime) only three or four of the top thirty stand out as players that would have been considered second liners on their teams (one was quite outstanding and got said player a retro Smythe). Compare that to the period of say 1970-1980 where you had a bunch of players that are further down their respective team's depth charts putting up big numbers while playing in checking roles or as pests. I think at least part of the reason for that is that during the pre-war era the best players played a ton - I've read that Morenz would often play 30-40 minutes a game, which left less opportunity for the second and third line forwards to contribute.

Quote:
Which goalie? Those Maroons played 2 games each against two different teams in the 1932 playoffs, and Stewart put up a combined 0-1-1 in that postseason. Were both goalies hot? It was also one of the poorest regular seasons of his prime. At what point was Nels dominant during that season?
My bad, I meant 30/31. It was the New York's goalie.

pitseleh is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.