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All-Time Draft #11, Part 2

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:08 PM
  #201
pitseleh
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Yep.

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04-08-2009, 07:13 PM
  #202
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can somebody take a list? We are still wanting to trade down, so you can try to send your proposals to JFF, i'm not sure if he will be there tonight.

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04-08-2009, 07:18 PM
  #203
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Inglewood is pleased to select:

Cy Denneny

Cy Denneny will bring extra kick to a forward group that didn't begin until round three. He wasn't who I had in mind for this pick, but he's way too good to pass up at this point. He was the driving offensive force behind the great Ottawa Senators teams of the 1920's. He led the NHL in points just once, but was runner up on 5 other occasions, and once in the NHA as well. He was top-3 in goals 6 times (leading once), and twice led the league in assists (with 3 other top-5 finishes). He was tough as nails, often charged with the protection of his more gentlemanly linemates. Denneny shone in the playoffs as well, with 5 Stanley Cups to his name.
Denneny strikes me as a bit of an odd case in the ATD.

He's long overdue based on his credentials. I think Denneny probably suffers the most out of the all-time greats from the team building perspective and style considerations. He seems to be viewed (not necessarily correctly) as a [undrafted player] type of guy offensively. Not all that fast, didn't really do one thing really well, etc, although I seem to remember reading he had a heavy shot. He was a great scorer, but isn't usually a name you'll hear thrown out quickly in a discussion of the greatest goal scorers. His assist totals for a winger were almost unheard of in that era. But the raw numbers don't look like anything special at a glace.

If you take a playmaking center, you're probably going to sniff out a true sniper to put on his wing and could easily overlook Denneny due to era. If you take a scoring center (and they're not all that common), you'd probably be inclined to look for somebody who was more of a passer than a scorer to stick on the wings, and again Denneny would probably be well down on the list of candidates, since he was mainly a scorer despite his excellent playmaking abilties.

Does anyone else get the feeling that if Denneny had been a centerman he'd be getting selected a fair bit higher than he tends to?


Last edited by pitseleh: 04-08-2009 at 07:33 PM.
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Old
04-08-2009, 07:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
can somebody take a list? We are still wanting to trade down, so you can try to send your proposals to JFF, i'm not sure if he will be there tonight.
I surely can take a list.

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04-08-2009, 07:21 PM
  #205
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I think Ovechkin deserves first line LW status at this point. (I'd hope so - we drafted him in that role in ATD 10, even though Busher Jackson really was our No. 1 LW - playing on the second line). But there's just something about Ovechkin one pick after Shanahan (great pick, Hed), and being picked before Nedomansky, Denneny and Hooley that seems so wrong.

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04-08-2009, 07:31 PM
  #206
EagleBelfour
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I have DoMakc pick at 147. PM me when it's his turn.

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04-08-2009, 07:33 PM
  #207
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I don't see pappy online so I'm gonna go with another guy he mentioned to me in a PM I have yet to have time to respond to. This man is not only a warrior, a terrific playoff performer, a two time first all star... he's also got instant chemistry with our franchise RW Mike Bossy. He's a guy who can do it all and he completes what we believe is a strong first unit with Dave Keon and Bossy.

LW Clark Gillies.

That gives us (if we use them this way)...

Gillies-Keon-Bossy
Langway-Wilson

Sawchuk

Pretty good start IMO.

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:43 PM
  #208
arrbez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Denneny strikes me as a bit of an odd case in the ATD.

He's long overdue based on his credentials. I think Denneny probably suffers the most out of the all-time greats from the team building perspective and style considerations. He seems to be viewed (not necessarily correctly) as a Dave Andreychuk type of guy offensively. Not all that fast, didn't really do one thing really well, etc, although I seem to remember reading he had a heavy shot. He was a great scorer, but isn't usually a name you'll hear thrown out quickly in a discussion of the greatest goal scorers. His assist totals for a winger were almost unheard of in that era. But the raw numbers don't look like anything special at a glace.

If you take a playmaking center, you're probably going to sniff out a true sniper to put on his wing and could easily overlook Denneny due to era. If you take a scoring center (and they're not all that common), you'd probably be inclined to look for somebody who was more of a passer than a scorer to stick on the wings, and again Denneny would probably be well down on the list of candidates, since he was mainly a scorer despite his excellent playmaking abilties.

Does anyone else get the feeling that if Denneny had been a centerman he'd be getting selected a fair bit higher than he tends to?
I agree that Denneny's a bit tougher than most all-time greats to build an offense around. He's not particularly fast, not an elite defensive player, etc. He's a lot harder to work around than the other guy I just drafted (Hooley Smith), who excelled at nearly everything and as such is can be pretty much put anywhere in any situation.

But I think Denneny's dominance more than makes up for this. Over the span of the first 10 NHL seasons, he led the league in scoring by a mile (327 points vs. 247 for the next highest). He also led the league in playoff scoring and playoff PPG (using players with over 10 games played). Not necessarily the offensive peak of a Malone or Lalonde, but just fantastic production on a year-to-year basis.

I almost passed on him myself for a more versatile player. But looking over his resume again, there's absolutely no way I could pass him over.


Last edited by arrbez: 04-08-2009 at 07:51 PM.
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Old
04-08-2009, 07:44 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I think Ovechkin deserves first line LW status at this point. (I'd hope so - we drafted him in that role in ATD 10, even though Busher Jackson really was our No. 1 LW - playing on the second line). But there's just something about Ovechkin one pick after Shanahan (great pick, Hed), and being picked before Nedomansky, Denneny and Hooley that seems so wrong.
Ovechkin's arguably been the best player in the world over the last 4 seasons. Only Lidstrom and maybe some goalies are more valuable. I don't think you can find a 4-year stretch where you can say that about Vaclav Nedomansky, Cy Denneny or Hooley Smith. Ovechkin's quickly becoming a nearly-singular offensive talent. I know it doesn't count in this format, but 5 more years like the last 4 and he's better than Mike Bossy.

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:45 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Ovechkin's arguably been the best player in the world over the last 4 seasons. Only Lidstrom and maybe some goalies are more valuable. I don't think you can find a 4-year stretch where you can say that about Vaclav Nedomansky, Cy Denneny or Hooley Smith.
I would say he's best the best for two years. Several guys were better his first two years.

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:45 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I think the point that seventies is trying to make is that an entire era of players didn't turn just somehow play bad in the playoffs. If you consider the likes of Morenz, Cook, and Stewart poor/mediocre playoff performers, who to you consider to be elite playoff performers?
that's pretty much the jist of it. When you look at a list of the top playoff scorers from, say, 1926-1940, the best players of the time are still on the top - Boucher is 1st, Conacher is 2nd, a guy who is better than anyone gives him credit for is 3rd, Jackson is 5th, Cook 8th, Cowley 14th. Boucher has 36 points in 54 games, and he's on top. When I hear people say that Cook's playoff record isn't that good or Stewart's isn't, or Stewart is bad and not that far off from Joliat, etc, it makes me wonder "well, jeez, who was a good playoff performer from that time, then?"

It's not just the raw numbers. It's elementary at the stage of enlightenment this group is at, to say "scoring went down a lot". It is the playoff matchups too. Two game series in a lot of cases. And as I mentioned, silly 1st against 2nd matches ensuring that some of the best players are gone after 2-3 games. A player who has three such seasons and then pretty good numbers in a cup win, ends up with 8 points in 16 games over four seasons but as a whole, did better than most players.

It wasn't Sturm who said that Taylor was bad in the playoffs. I remember arguing that a) Lalonde did just as well in the playoffs as Taylor - two excellent performances (1918, 1919), two decent ones (1916, 1908, 1917), and two bad ones (1914, 1925, 1926) and b) Taylor was in fact very good in the playoffs with two dominating performances of his own coupled with a pair of two-and-outs. I must have been replying to someone else on that particular note.

In regards to Malone being a better playoff performer than Lalonde, he only got into 12 games so it's tough to say, but he had a great playoff PPG average. Is it easier to maintain that over 12 games up to age 31, or over 22 games up to age 37? Also, Malone's PPG output in the playoffs is based largely on one nine goal explosion. Aside from that game he has 13 in 11 games, well below Lalonde's career average taken over a much better sample size.

In regards to Nighbor being a better playoff performer than Lalonde, he had 35 points in 41 playoff games and of course played outstanding defense. He had one performance that I would guarantee would be Smythe worthy based on what I read in The Trail. He was also excellent in 1920. Other than that there are a few decent performances and a couple that, offensively, were poor. Comparing him to Lalonde, who had 33 in 22, assumedly can't be satisfactorily done unless we do something about Lalonde's "aberration" - the 1919 NHL final against the Nighborless Sens. (5-11-2-13) If we completely remove it he's got 20 points in 17 playoff games. If we are more fair and perhaps cut those totals in half he's got 26-27 points in 22 games. Taking Nighbor's defensive contributions into account it is feasible that he performed better than Lalonde. I think it's close either way. Nighbor did contribute to more winners which helps but of course I'm trying to isolate individual performance.

I know you don't have it out for Lalonde, Sturm, but if he was one of the two best in the regular season and one of the five best in the playoffs, that is an excellent record. It could classify him as not being as dominant in the playoffs as in the regular season, but that's only if you're really being strict. If you were top 5 in regular season and playoffs, you were bringing it year round.

It is not my desire to see us honour good performances and turn a blind eye to bad ones. You may just be trying to find bad ones where they either don't exist or are more frequent in all top players' resumes due to circumstances and therefore must be taken with a grain of salt.

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:48 PM
  #212
ck26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I would say he's best the best for two years. Several guys were better his first two years.
Let me rephrase ... he hasn't been the best in each of those 4 seasons. His last 300-something games have been better than anyone else's.

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04-08-2009, 07:57 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Let me rephrase ... he hasn't been the best in each of those 4 seasons. His last 300-something games have been better than anyone else's.
Perhaps...an undrafted player still has more points than him over that span, but I'd probably take Ovechkin on the merits of badassitude and because I think these last two seasons have been better than the other guy's.

(For the record, Denneny did lead the NHL over a 4 year span, but this was of course prior to the inception of Allstar Teams and the Hart ). I'll grant you that Ovechkin's peak is probably better, but at this point I wouldn't take it over a decade of somewhat similar offensive dominance from Denneny.


Last edited by arrbez: 04-08-2009 at 08:02 PM.
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Old
04-08-2009, 07:58 PM
  #214
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Victoria selects C Igor Larionov

1982 World Championship Gold Medal
1983 World Championship Gold Medal
1984 Olympic Gold Medal
1986 World Championship Gold Medal
1988 Olympic Gold Medal
1989 World Championship Gold Medal
1997 Stanley Cup Champion
1998 Stanley Cup Champion
2002 Olympic Bronze Medal
2002 Stanley Cup Champion
Member of the Triple Gold Club
Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame
One of only three players to win a Stanley Cup, a World Cup, an Olympic Gold, a World Championship, and a World Junior Championship
644 points in 921 games

Legends of Hockey:
Quote:
Igor Larionov was already heralded as one of the top hockey players in the world when he finally made his NHL debut in October of 1989 at the age of 29. Prior to that debut, Larionov had earned this reputation during a dominant stretch back home in Russia where he centered the top-line in the country for several years. Larionov, was a four-time Russian First Team All-Star, a two-time World Championship All-Star and the Russian Player of the Year in 1988. He was a big part of the Russians 1981 Canada Cup victory as well as being a huge contributor to Olympic gold medals for Russia in both 1984 and 1988 as well as several World Championship titles.

In 1995-96, Larionov set to turn 36, the Sharks felt the veteran was at the end of the line and jumped at the opportunity to trade him to Detroit.Coach Scotty Bowman often used the group as a five-man unit and Larionov fit in right away. The veterans poise and leadership in the locker room was immeasurable but his 71 points in 69 games was. When added to the two points he had scored in San Jose prior to the deal it added up to a career-best 73 point season. In the playoffs, Larionov once again was a force with 13 points for the Wings in 19 games, but the team fell short of its goal of winning the Stanley Cup.

In 1997 the veteran returned to Motown for his first full season with the club. The skilled pivot once again piled up assists for the team and played a solid two way game. This time, however, in the playoffs, things panned out for the Red Wings and they defeated the Philadelphia Flyers for their first Stanley Cup in decades. Detroit captain Steve Yzerman made it clear how important Larionov was to that club. The first player he passed the prized trophy too after it was given to him was Igor Larionov. That summer Larionov and his Russian teammates made history by brining the famed Cup home to the Soviet Union for the first time ever. The following season Larionov and the Red Wings repeated their feat by ousting the Washington Capitals in the Cup finals.The critics grew quieter when the Red Wings exploded out of the gates and led the league from start to finish while their veteran crew enjoyed a healthy, successful season. Larionov, who was now the oldest player in the league, played 70 games and scored 43 points. In the playoffs, Detroit continued to roll and advanced to the Stanley Cup Finals versus the Carolina Hurricanes. The man known to teammates as "The Professor" became the oldest player in NHL history to score a Stanley Cup Final goal when he notched one versus the Hurricanes. Larionov wasn't through though. He scored a high-light reel back hand goal versus the 'Canes in the third overtime period of Game Three that essentially broke Carolina's back. Then, in game five, his slick pass set up the Stanley Cup clinching goal for the Red Wings.


Last edited by Hedberg: 04-08-2009 at 08:04 PM.
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04-08-2009, 08:15 PM
  #215
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Wow, this is moving faster than I expected. Sorry, skipped picks to be mde soon.

RW Pavel Bure
D Rob Blake

Having a hectake schedule latley, I'll try to send more lists out, when it gets closer,

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04-08-2009, 08:16 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camperjr View Post
Wow, this is moving faster than I expected. Sorry, skipped picks to be mde soon.

RW Pavel Bure
D Rob Blake

Having a hectake schedule latley, I'll try to send more lists out, when it gets closer,
Bure is gone already, i think

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04-08-2009, 08:17 PM
  #217
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Bure's been selected already camper.

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04-08-2009, 08:22 PM
  #218
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Bure's been selected already camper.
Sorry again, re-pick to be made soon

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:23 PM
  #219
arrbez
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take Valeri

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:24 PM
  #220
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Gotta take Candace too then.
Put Wickenheiser on the other wing and make an all-girls line

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04-08-2009, 08:24 PM
  #221
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take Valeri
Gotta take Candace too then.

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04-08-2009, 08:26 PM
  #222
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Gotta take Candace too then.
Why? Valeri looks more feminine.

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04-08-2009, 08:27 PM
  #223
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Put Wickenheiser on the other wing and make an all-girls line
and have JC Tremblay complain about all the hair pulling?

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04-08-2009, 08:35 PM
  #224
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With there amke up pick, the Oilers pick RW Glenn Anderson

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:44 PM
  #225
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Who can't use a nasty power forward who also backchecked like a demon, led the NHL in points, goal scoring, and playoff scoring, and won 4 Cups on 2 different teams?

Not this GM.

In order to give Schmidt someone to rant with about how underrated he is in the ATD because he was such an alpha male fighting in a WW (he does that a lot), the Killarney Country Bear Jamboree are jumping to select the Cook and Howe prototype, a man so tough he needs two nicknames telling you how he'll bash your face in...



Harry "Punch" "Old Elbows" Broadbent

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