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The Calder race should be a two horse race

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:21 PM
  #26
J-D
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Guys, I think Laperriere's real goal was to make us realize that Hamhuis was an integral part of Nashville's success this year, and that we should not overlook that fact. He might make the all-rookie team for some, maybe he won't for others, but the fact he should be at least considered shows how Nashville can and will count on such a quality young d-man for years to come. Probably the best defensemen of the 2001 draft class as of now (Pilar and Zidlicky don't count, they were overagers).

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03-17-2004, 03:25 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier
I was actually more curious about the fact that no one outside of MTL believes that Ryder's rookie success will translate into a good career, rather the stigma on him is that he's a slow "garbage goal" scorer. Reality is, he has the quickest release I've ever seen, he has great one on one moves, He finishes every check, and yes he can skate backwards and he has a stellar 2-way game.
I'll ignore the exaggerations as best as I can, but I can't speak for anyone that's knocking Ryder's future. He looks to be a quality player for years to come. To call him a stellar two-way guy is stretching it though and that goes for the poster before you as well that said the same thing. Being a two-way forward doesn't mean you can skate well in reverse either, just for the record. Not that I was doing anything but kidding around anyway, but skating backwards is something most forwards can't do well and I don't see where Ryder has separated himself from anybody else in that department.

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But to say that Ryder is #3 in the calder race IS an insult to Ryder. Just because offence is easier than defence , doesn't negate the fact that Ryder is head and shoulders above every other rookie in terms of scoring this season. Hamhuis isn't even as good as Pitkanen, who has been the best rookie defenseman this year. So yes, Ryder is top 2, and for the future I think he's gonna be a premier 2 way forward in this league for many years.
No, it's not. You can take it as an insult, which is your right, but be aware that's your interpretation. Jackman beat out Nash and Zetterberg last year (correctly I might add); was that insulting to Nash and Zetterberg? I don't think so. Stepping in and being a top defenseman in your rookie year is immensely more difficult than stepping in and being a top forward. It just is.

As for Pitkanen vs. Hamhuis, that's the popular opinion, but I don't find it all that accurate. Pitkanen's been good, but he doesn't get the minutes that Hamhuis does because he's on a deeper team. He doesn't play in all situations nor is he called on to do so all that often. He only has a few more points than Hamhuis at best and this is with Pitkanen seeing solid PP time. Not to mention that Pitkanen is looked upon to put points on the board, especially on the PP, whereas Hamhuis plays a more defensive role because Zidlicky plays the Pitkanen role on his team. Pitkanen's year is greatly overrated. Hamhuis has done a lot more than Pitkanen has this year and everytime I read Pitkanen being the top defensive rookie in the league, I can't help but chuckle. Pitkanen is going to be great player, but this year, Hamhuis has outplayed him. I'd also rate Liles and Backman ahead of Pitkanen just based on this season. Just because most everybody automatically says Pitkanen doesn't make him the best rookie defenseman this year. Ditto the empty opinions of most sportswriters out there.

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
Guys, I think Laperriere's real goal was to make us realize that Hamhuis was an integral part of Nashville's success this year, and that we should not overlook that fact. He might make the all-rookie team for some, maybe he won't for others, but the fact he should be at least considered shows how Nashville can and will count on such a quality young d-man for years to come. Probably the best defensemen of the 2001 draft class as of now (Pilar and Zidlicky don't count, they were overagers).
Hamhuis is already better than Pilar, and overall I'm sure Nashville fans will agree, that he is on par with Zidlicky. (overall, not on offense)

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:34 PM
  #29
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Overall Hamhuis is better than Zidlicky, by a pretty good margin. Zidlicky is sick with the puck, and he's a little below average in the defensive end. Hamhuis is above average in both ends, but not nearly as good as Zidlicky with the puck.

I don't think Liles is better than Hamhuis either.

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:40 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
I'll ignore the exaggerations as best as I can, but I can't speak for anyone that's knocking Ryder's future. He looks to be a quality player for years to come. To call him a stellar two-way guy is stretching it though and that goes for the poster before you as well that said the same thing. Being a two-way forward doesn't mean you can skate well in reverse either, just for the record. Not that I was doing anything but kidding around anyway, but skating backwards is something most forwards can't do well and I don't see where Ryder has separated himself from anybody else in that department..
actualy i waz making fun of you with my skating backwards comment but for some reason you took it seriously
you got to understand everyplayer in this league can skate backwards (its not that tough) it's the grit, checking and defencive awareness that makes a solid 2 way player, not skating backwards
anyways ryder is a VERY strong 2 way player i don't know why your claiming he isn't at least watch him play or read his scouting reports they all praise his "2 way game"

heres an indy on ryder: "Excels at the two-way game and is an improving offensive player. Can play either center or wing. Is extremely versatile."

about the skating backwards part i just find it funny

btw he has a super human release that he's using more and more every game.

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:55 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #44_delivers
actualy i waz making fun of you with my skating backwards comment but for some reason you took it seriously
you got to understand everyplayer in this league can skate backwards (its not that tough) it's the grit, checking and defencive awareness that makes a solid 2 way player, not skating backwards
anyways ryder is a VERY strong 2 way player i don't know why your claiming he isn't at least watch him play or read his scouting reports they all praise his "2 way game"

heres an indy on ryder: "Excels at the two-way game and is an improving offensive player. Can play either center or wing. Is extremely versatile."

about the skating backwards part i just find it funny

btw he has a super human release that he's using more and more every game.
Ryder is amazing. I think he scored in every game against us this year

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Old
03-17-2004, 03:57 PM
  #32
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Event I don't post a lot, I read a lot on the board and it's seems that because Habs fan try to prove the real value of Ryder, others said is not even close to pick the ROY awards this year.

I've watch every Habs game this year and Ryder is one of their most important players and give them a new face. He can score, check, play 2-way and for a second-tier offensive team, he put some respectable numbers. Almost half of his point we're on important goal (game winning, game tieing).

Raycroft is the other horse in this race and I think that the 2 deserve the Calder.

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Old
03-17-2004, 04:01 PM
  #33
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I was rushed into my earlier list, here's my 5 candidates, in no order:

Ryder
Raycroft
Hunter
Pitkinen
Malone

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Old
03-17-2004, 04:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #44_delivers
actualy i waz making fun of you with my skating backwards comment but for some reason you took it seriously
you got to understand everyplayer in this league can skate backwards (its not that tough) it's the grit, checking and defencive awareness that makes a solid 2 way player, not skating backwards
anyways ryder is a VERY strong 2 way player i don't know why your claiming he isn't at least watch him play or read his scouting reports they all praise his "2 way game"

heres an indy on ryder: "Excels at the two-way game and is an improving offensive player. Can play either center or wing. Is extremely versatile."

about the skating backwards part i just find it funny

btw he has a super human release that he's using more and more every game.
That really doesn't make much sense, but whatever you say. The point being made was clearly missed and I ain't even gonna try and explain it. As for my comment on his 2 way game, the point of contention is with the term "stellar", which suggests an elite 2 way player. That I don't agree with. Good two-way guy? Yes. Elite? No.

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Old
03-17-2004, 04:39 PM
  #35
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Granted, learning to be a D is harder than learning to be a forward. Still, taking that into consideration, Hamhuis' accomplishments over the year doesn't even come close to Ryder's accomplishments. Ryder has been producing a point per game since January. Baring no injuries (knock on wood), he should be good for 65 pts when the regular season ends.

To put things in perspective, Heatly netted 67 points when he won ROY. Now Ryder might not win the trophy (my money is on Raycroft) but considering Hamhuis before Ryder is nothing short of a joke ! (and a not so funny one at that ...)

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Old
03-17-2004, 04:41 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
No, it's not. You can take it as an insult, which is your right, but be aware that's your interpretation. Jackman beat out Nash and Zetterberg last year (correctly I might add); was that insulting to Nash and Zetterberg?
Zetterberg and Nash barely had 40 points. Ryder is going to be well over 60.

Jackman won last year because there were no offensive or goaltending candidates. I like him a lot, but that's the simple fact of voting, defencemen don't get voted for unless there's nobody else. That's not the case this year.

Ryder and Raycroft *will* both be nominated and will be the top 2 finishers. Take your pick of the third. Based on all the hype, I'm expecting Pitkanen, though I don't see it myself. He's decent, but I just don't see the fawning over him.

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:12 PM
  #37
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If you don't think Ryan Malone doesn't at least deserve to be in the top 5, check out this video:

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/mu...eadyandable.rm

Some amazing stuff. Not to mention doing it with almost NO help from his teammates.

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:14 PM
  #38
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Wouldn't it make sense to give the R.O.Y. award to Derek R.O.Y. ???


JK.

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:21 PM
  #39
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I can't believe there's a three page thread that exists just to say that Hamhuis should be a considered a Calder favorite.

If the lone Hamhuis bandwagoner would sit down and watch hockey, he would realize this thread a huge waste of everyone's time.

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Wouldn't it make sense to give the R.O.Y. award to Derek R.O.Y. ???


JK.
i thought that would be cool too
people would think its a mistake on the template of the trophy

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:37 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
...
There's nothing wrong with you wanting Hamhuis to get consideration. I haven't seen him play much this season but I don't doubt he's been awesome. But to say that the two horses race is between Raycroft and Hamhuis is just way off the mark. This thread was started on a bad premise.

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03-17-2004, 05:43 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
I can't believe there's a three page thread that exists just to say that Hamhuis should be a considered a Calder favorite.

If the lone Hamhuis bandwagoner would sit down and watch hockey, he would realize this thread a huge waste of everyone's time.
Ooh, somebody made a bold statement. Flyer fan by chance? Thanks a lot for the chuckle.

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03-17-2004, 05:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Habsolution
There's nothing wrong with you wanting Hamhuis to get consideration. I haven't seen him play much this season but I don't doubt he's been awesome. But to say that the two horses race is between Raycroft and Hamhuis is just way off the mark. This thread was started on a bad premise.
Incorrect; the thread title clearly states "should be", implying it should be between Raycroft and Hamhuis IMO. The voting will be predictable as it generally is because it's based on hype and exposure more than anything else. That's where Pitkanen's name keeps coming in. I'm well aware of how the voting will play out, but that doesn't mean anything as far as this thread. This thread is based on my opinion and not a bad premise; if the voters based their opinions on knowledge of the sport and what they've seen, the votes would turn out very different every year. As long as it's statistically based and exposure based, the voting will always be flawed.

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03-17-2004, 05:52 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
I can't believe there's a three page thread that exists just to say that Hamhuis should be a considered a Calder favorite.

If the lone Hamhuis bandwagoner would sit down and watch hockey, he would realize this thread a huge waste of everyone's time.

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Old
03-17-2004, 05:56 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
Incorrect; the thread title clearly states "should be", implying it should be between Raycroft and Hamhuis IMO. The voting will be predictable as it generally is because it's based on hype and exposure more than anything else. That's where Pitkanen's name keeps coming in. I'm well aware of how the voting will play out, but that doesn't mean anything as far as this thread. This thread is based on my opinion and not a bad premise; if the voters based their opinions on knowledge of the sport and what they've seen, the votes would turn out very different every year. As long as it's statistically based and exposure based, the voting will always be flawed.
You assumed I was talking about the voting. I was not. I'm talking about what the thread clearly implies. Which is that Hamhuis has had such a good season that he leaves Ryder in the dust (in your opinion) and battle with Raycroft in that 2 horses race for who the best rookie is this season.

Like I said Hamhuis probably has been very good but to say that Hamhuis play should warrant so much more consideration that Ryder would be left out of that race is disrespecting Ryder's accomplishments this season and probably overating Hamhuis' ones (altough I won't debate this with you I simply haven't seen enough of the preds to have an opinion).

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03-17-2004, 06:09 PM
  #46
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Hamhuis has had a strong year, but no chance it's between him and Razor. Here's three guys who IMO would win it over him:

1)Joni Pitkanen
2)John-Micheal Liles
3)Paul Martin

We could add in more deserving forwards as well:

1)Ryan Malone
2)Micheal Ryder
3)Trent Hunter
4)Tuomo Ruutu


Andrew Raycroft, a goalie, is also a player more deserving. More deserving than anybady. Also, there's guys like Eric Staal, Patrice Bergeron, Joffrey Lupul, etc. who could be considered a better candidate than the Hammer.

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Old
03-17-2004, 06:11 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
You assumed I was talking about the voting. I was not. I'm talking about what the thread clearly implies. Which is that Hamhuis has had such a good season that he leaves Ryder in the dust (in your opinion) and battle with Raycroft in that 2 horses race for who the best rookie is this season.

Like I said Hamhuis probably has been very good but to say that Hamhuis play should warrant so much more consideration that Ryder would be left out of that race is disrespecting Ryder's accomplishments this season and probably overating Hamhuis' ones (altough I won't debate this with you I simply haven't seen enough of the preds to have an opinion).
How does that make sense? You say I use a bad premise and that I'm way off the mark based on what exactly? Public sentiment? The press? Voting? Your opinion? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me; that's what the board is for. But when you speak of things in such a cut and dried nature, I assume there's something there of substance to back it up. Not just some assumptions about how I'm evaluating the players in question.

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Old
03-17-2004, 06:14 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Hamhuis has had a strong year, but no chance it's between him and Razor. Here's three guys who IMO would win it over him:

1)Joni Pitkanen
2)John-Micheal Liles
3)Paul Martin

We could add in more deserving forwards as well:

1)Ryan Malone
2)Micheal Ryder
3)Trent Hunter
4)Tuomo Ruutu


Andrew Raycroft, a goalie, is also a player more deserving. More deserving than anybady. Also, there's guys like Eric Staal, Patrice Bergeron, Joffrey Lupul, etc. who could be considered a better candidate than the Hammer.
Did you know that Hamhuis is 2nd in ice-time on a pretty good Predators team??

I'm not sure you realize his importance to his team. Patrice Bergeron? Gimme a break.

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Old
03-17-2004, 06:16 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Hamhuis has had a strong year, but no chance it's between him and Razor. Here's three guys who IMO would win it over him:

1)Joni Pitkanen
2)John-Micheal Liles
3)Paul Martin
Based on what? It's easy to type up a list of guys and not provide any sort of detailed insight into what ranks one guy higher than another. The art of talking a lot without saying anything. Opinions are great, but what substance is there beyond your list or anyone else's list?

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Old
03-17-2004, 06:22 PM
  #50
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Hamhuis as a finalist is a bigger homer pick than Buffalo winning the cup this year.

1. Raycroft
2. Ryder
3. Hunter
4. Pitkanen
5. Liles
6. Martin
7. Hamhuis

Barret Jackman won it last year-he had 19 points, but he was a PLUS 23. Hamhuis is a MINUS 12. Rookie dmen don't win that title with minus 12.

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