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The Calder race should be a two horse race

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Old
03-17-2004, 06:22 PM
  #51
triggrman
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Wasn't Lupul a healthy scratch some this season?

I'm not saying he deserves the ROY, I don't think he does, but while some might be hyping him too much others are not giving him enough credit and I still can't see Liles as a being better.

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03-17-2004, 06:23 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs
Hamhuis as a finalist is a bigger homer pick than Buffalo winning the cup this year.

1. Raycroft
2. Ryder
3. Hunter
4. Pitkanen
5. Liles
6. Martin
7. Hamhuis

Barret Jackman won it last year-he had 19 points, but he was a PLUS 23. Hamhuis is a MINUS 12. Rookie dmen don't win that title with minus 12.
Not a single Predators fan has come on here to pick Hamhuis.

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03-17-2004, 06:25 PM
  #53
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As far as I'm concerned, it's a one horse race. When a rookie is a legitimate thought for the Hart, I don't think there is any question who should get the Calder. If Raycroft doesn't get it, then something is seriously wrong

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03-17-2004, 06:31 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
Based on what? It's easy to type up a list of guys and not provide any sort of detailed insight into what ranks one guy higher than another. The art of talking a lot without saying anything. Opinions are great, but what substance is there beyond your list or anyone else's list?
Here's insight. Pitkanen leads his team in +/-. Hamhuis is near the bottom of his team.
Pitkanen in less games and in less minutes per night has more points.

Because Pitkanen plays for a demanding defensive 1st coach he's gotten those points by having to play defensive 1st. And he's excelled at that which is why he leads the team in +/-. He's had individual moments where he's looked bad. But those are few and far between. He's had games where he's been the best player on the ice. And he's had moments that have had the away announcers comparing him to Orr. That's heresy and I know that and they knew that. But they said it. They said it because what he was doing with the puck was exceptional. He took laps around the offensive zone with the puck on his stick. It was even strength, not a PP.
With no major additions besides him he turned a PP that was near the bottom into the #1 ranked unit. And yes, that was before Zhamnov got there. It's clearly more then him, having another year in the same system helped. But he's been a huge part of it.
On defense he's mean. He's not a Leetch clone. He has Leetch's offensive potential and Pronger's meanness. Pitkanen's uttmost potential is a cross betweena Leetch and a Pronger. Will he reach that highest end? Doubtfull. But that's the potential he's shown. Shown being the key word. Meaning if you'd watch him you know he's a lot more then just potential. What he is now is damn good.

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03-17-2004, 06:37 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
How does that make sense? You say I use a bad premise and that I'm way off the mark based on what exactly? Public sentiment? The press? Voting? Your opinion? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me; that's what the board is for. But when you speak of things in such a cut and dried nature, I assume there's something there of substance to back it up. Not just some assumptions about how I'm evaluating the players in question.
In my book leading all rookies in scoring by 11 pts, having been a clutch scorer with his 4 GW, answering one of the habs greatest needs up front and being one of the most important reason why the habs have improved so much this season certainly gets you big consideration for one of the 2 best rookie of the season. I didn't think I had to back up why I think Ryder should be up there with Raycroft as one of the very best rookie this season because it's generally well accepted by most people.

You are the one speaking of things in a cut and dried nature saying that it should be a 2 horses race for the calder between Hamhuis and Raycroft if voting wasn't a contest of popularity. You are the one making a bold statement.

And about the only good point you've brought up so far is that he's playing with another first year player (Zidlicky is still 27...) and still doing very well. Yet you're telling me I'm the one not backing up my argument ? How does that make sense ? Oh and please spare us this crap about dmen and goalies having it harder. Being a defensively responsible top 2 line high scoring forward on a playoffs team is just as hard as being a rookie dman on a good playoffs bound defensive team.

Have you even watched Ryder play this season to dismiss him so easily as only another one of those scoring forwards that shouldn't even be in the race with Raycroft and Hamhuis ? I admitted I haven't seen much of Hamhuis. But the difference between you and me is that I'm not the one saying Hamhuis shouldn't be in a 2 horses race.

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03-17-2004, 06:40 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
Here's insight. Pitkanen leads his team in +/-. Hamhuis is near the bottom of his team.
Pitkanen in less games and in less minutes per night has more points.

Because Pitkanen plays for a demanding defensive 1st coach he's gotten those points by having to play defensive 1st. And he's excelled at that which is why he leads the team in +/-. He's had individual moments where he's looked bad. But those are few and far between. He's had games where he's been the best player on the ice. And he's had moments that have had the away announcers comparing him to Orr. That's heresy and I know that and they knew that. But they said it. They said it because what he was doing with the puck was exceptional. He took laps around the offensive zone with the puck on his stick. It was even strength, not a PP.
With no major additions besides him he turned a PP that was near the bottom into the #1 ranked unit. And yes, that was before Zhamnov got there. It's clearly more then him, having another year in the same system helped. But he's been a huge part of it.
On defense he's mean. He's not a Leetch clone. He has Leetch's offensive potential and Pronger's meanness. Pitkanen's uttmost potential is a cross betweena Leetch and a Pronger. Will he reach that highest end? Doubtfull. But that's the potential he's shown. Shown being the key word. Meaning if you'd watch him you know he's a lot more then just potential. What he is now is damn good.
Why does he play the least amount of minutes out of all Flyers Defensemen?

I'll answer that for you.

He needs a lot of work on his defensive game. Keep Bobby Orr's name out of posts involving Pitkanen..please.

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03-17-2004, 06:44 PM
  #57
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I don't care, Ryder WILL be a candidate with Raycroft and Hunter. No doubt.

By the way, Rayn Malone is a good player, but you must consider that he plays about 3 more minutes per game in average compared to other rookie forwards (Hunter, Bergeron, Ryder, Ruttu). Also, he has a horrible -22. It doesn't make him a bad player, but you must consider every stats in your evaluation.

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03-17-2004, 06:46 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Why does he play the least amount of minutes out of all Flyers Defensemen?

I'll answer that for you.

He needs a lot of work on his defensive game. Keep Bobby Orr's name out of posts involving Pitkanen..please.
No you're wrong. He plays the least minutes because that was Hitch's plan from the get-go and that plan exists because Hitch wants to bring him along slowly.
Nights/Stretches where he's clearly been the best defensman for the Flyers. 16-17 minutes a night.
Nights/Streches where he's had some rought games. 16-17 minutes a night.

And as I said, the visiting announcers mentioned that, not me. And the reason they said it was because of something he DID on the ice. not potential or one-day.

Its funny that you were so cocky and said some "Ill answer that for you" crap yet were just flat out wrong.

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03-17-2004, 07:06 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
No you're wrong. He plays the least minutes because that was Hitch's plan from the get-go and that plan exists because Hitch wants to bring him along slowly.
Nights/Stretches where he's clearly been the best defensman for the Flyers. 16-17 minutes a night.
Nights/Streches where he's had some rought games. 16-17 minutes a night.

And as I said, the visiting announcers mentioned that, not me. And the reason they said it was because of something he DID on the ice. not potential or one-day.

Its funny that you were so cocky and said some "Ill answer that for you" crap yet were just flat out wrong.
You started out by saying this:

Quote:
Here's insight. Pitkanen leads his team in +/-. Hamhuis is near the bottom of his team.
I guess that means you are implying that Pitkanen is better defensively and overall, considering you're bolstering his +/-

Well why has Pitkanen only played a total of 4 minutes on the PK this entire year season? Because Hitch is trying to bring him around slowly? Doubtful IMO. I'm sure Hitch could have found a couple instants where he could try Joni on the PP, he averages 0:04 ice time on the PK, I'd say Hitch does his best from keeping Joni off the ice as much as possible when they are down a man.

Compare that to Hamhuis who leads his team in even strength minutes and contributes 2:37 a game on the PK. Hamhuis is superior to Joni in the defensive end at this time in their careers whether you want to believe it or not. It's pretty obvious that Joni is the more talented and skilled D-man, that's why he puts up better numbers, it also helps that he averages 3:25 on the PP, second to only Kim Johnsson...bringing him around slowly eh? not on the PP I guess.

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03-17-2004, 07:15 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Zetterberg and Nash barely had 40 points. Ryder is going to be well over 60.

Jackman won last year because there were no offensive or goaltending candidates. I like him a lot, but that's the simple fact of voting, defencemen don't get voted for unless there's nobody else. That's not the case this year.

Ryder and Raycroft *will* both be nominated and will be the top 2 finishers. Take your pick of the third. Based on all the hype, I'm expecting Pitkanen, though I don't see it myself. He's decent, but I just don't see the fawning over him.
Zetterberg got squat time compared to Ryder. He had 44 points on Detroit-a stacked team. With Fedorov and his constant complaints about ice time, do you honestly think a rookie would get that much OT? Plus Jackman was a + 23. Which is outstanding for a rookie defenseman.

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03-17-2004, 07:15 PM
  #61
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Difference with Pitkanen and Hamhuis considering ice time is that the preds have no choice but to play Hamhuis a lot. They got rid of so many guys that were playing regularly in the off season. I can still remember those heated threads about the preds D being just fine and others saying it wasn't possible to make the playoffs with such an inexperienced squad of dmen. On the other hand they flyers D at the beginning of the year was stacked. Much has happened since then and it still is pretty deep if everyone is healthy. Just two different situations, two different coaches. You can't really throw that ice time thing in there and use it as that big argument that Hamhuis should get more consideration based on that.

My 2 cents ...


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03-17-2004, 07:21 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
You started out by saying this:



I guess that means you are implying that Pitkanen is better defensively and overall, considering you're bolstering his +/-

Well why has Pitkanen only played a total of 4 minutes on the PK this entire year season? Because Hitch is trying to bring him around slowly? Doubtful IMO. I'm sure Hitch could have found a couple instants where he could try Joni on the PP, he averages 0:04 ice time on the PK, I'd say Hitch does his best from keeping Joni off the ice as much as possible when they are down a man.

Compare that to Hamhuis who leads his team in even strength minutes and contributes 2:37 a game on the PK. Hamhuis is superior to Joni in the defensive end at this time in their careers whether you want to believe it or not. It's pretty obvious that Joni is the more talented and skilled D-man, that's why he puts up better numbers, it also helps that he averages 3:25 on the PP, second to only Kim Johnsson...bringing him around slowly eh? not on the PP I guess.

No doubtfull about it. If you knew what you're talking about at least. You're trying to pump up Hamhuis on your opinion because his stats aren't good enough to do it for you. Yet you clearly don't know about the other guys.
Pitkanen is much better right now on the PP then on the PK. Because Hitch IS bringing him along slowly he doesn't need him or what him to play on the PK.
Hitch has come right out and said this. He's come right out and said Pitkanen is good defensively and that if he wasn't he wouldn't play him at all.

But go right on along living in your fantasy world. I'm sure your convincing opinion of Hamhuis is gaining him Calder votes right now.

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03-17-2004, 07:24 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
Difference with Pitkanen and Hamhuis considering ice time is that the preds have no choice but to play Hamhuis a lot. They got rid of so many guys that were playing regularly in the off season. I can still remember those heated threads about the preds D being just fine and others saying it wasn't possible to make the playoffs with such an inexperienced squad of rookies. On the other hand they flyers D at the beginning of the year was stacked. Much has happened since then and it still is pretty deep if everyone is healthy. Just two different situations, two different coaches. You can't really throw that ice time thing in there and use it as that big argument that Hamhuis should get more consideration based on that.
I understand that Philly has better defensemen, BUT Pitkanen is not a the same level as Hamhuis defensively. Sure that's my opinion, and it ain't worth much.

The fact that Pitkanen is heavily used on the PP and never used on the PK, illustrates to me that the way his ice-time is managed by his coach is reflective of his game right now. Again, considering that Pitkanen plays high minutes on the PP, you'd think that he'd play the occasional(or even rare) PK time.

I don't think that Hamhuis is better than Pitkanen (you can see that on the 1st page of this thread), but I feel that:

1) Hamhuis is better defensively

2) Hamhuis is more valuable to his team than Joni is to the Flyers.

3) Joni Pitkanen's potential is much greater.

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03-17-2004, 07:26 PM
  #64
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Here you go Mrs Hamhuis

Quote:
Pitkanen does not have the glittering statistics of Montreal's Michael Ryder or the publicity of Boston's Patrice Bergeron, both of whom are being asked to make a major impact on their teams. With the Flyers, Pitkanen is small cog working with a host of veterans.

The Flyers just want him to move the puck up the ice and add some pop to the power play, which he has done.
Quote:
"He's stronger than I thought he was," Primeau said. "He is not a liability defensively. He's strong enough to push people away from scoring areas and win the battles in the corner. Because of that, he plays important minutes."
Quote:
"You hear the word skill and think soft," Hitchcock said yesterday. "But he is not soft on the puck at all. He's a pretty strong player. He is very determined when he has it."
All from this article

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03-17-2004, 07:31 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
No doubtfull about it. If you knew what you're talking about at least. You're trying to pump up Hamhuis on your opinion because his stats aren't good enough to do it for you. Yet you clearly don't know about the other guys.
Pitkanen is much better right now on the PP then on the PK. Because Hitch IS bringing him along slowly he doesn't need him or what him to play on the PK.
Hitch has come right out and said this. He's come right out and said Pitkanen is good defensively and that if he wasn't he wouldn't play him at all.

But go right on along living in your fantasy world. I'm sure your convincing opinion of Hamhuis is gaining him Calder votes right now.
Hamhuis : 6 goals, 15 assists, 21 pts. 4 GWG 22:09 TOI/G -12

Pitkanen : 8 goals, 16 assists, 24 pts. 2 GWG 16:48 TOI/G +16

Pitkanen has 16pts on the PP. Hamhuis has 8pts on the PP.

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03-17-2004, 07:35 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Hamhuis : 6 goals, 15 assists, 21 pts. 4 GWG 22:09 TOI/G -12

Pitkanen : 8 goals, 16 assists, 24 pts. 2 GWG 16:48 TOI/G +16

Pitkanen has 16pts on the PP. Hamhuis has 8pts on the PP.
Yup thats right. Pitkanen's also a better PP player then Hamhuis.

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03-17-2004, 07:36 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
I understand that Philly has better defensemen, BUT Pitkanen is not a the same level as Hamhuis defensively. Sure that's my opinion, and it ain't worth much.

The fact that Pitkanen is heavily used on the PP and never used on the PK, illustrates to me that the way his ice-time is managed by his coach is reflective of his game right now. Again, considering that Pitkanen plays high minutes on the PP, you'd think that he'd play the occasional(or even rare) PK time.

I don't think that Hamhuis is better than Pitkanen (you can see that on the 1st page of this thread), but I feel that:

1) Hamhuis is better defensively

2) Hamhuis is more valuable to his team than Joni is to the Flyers.

3) Joni Pitkanen's potential is much greater.
I'm not sure I agree with your point about PK time but that's 3 fairly reasonable opinions and I'm not in a position to argue with you on that.

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03-17-2004, 07:37 PM
  #68
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okay, a preds fan here...that said, let me say this.

1. Dan Hamhuis has no chance at the Calder
2. Nor should he
3. Raycroft, Ryder and probably Hunter all deserve it over him


now, THAT said...as I've said in the past...the difference in Hamhuis and Pitkanen's level is NOT what you're making it out to be. I will concede that Pitkanen's offense is far above Hamhuis's. At the same time, Hamhuis is much better defensively. On the same note, Hamhuis has a solid offensive game, by no means "bad," and Pitkanen is reliable defensively, as well. They both have advantages over each other. Like I said...I don't think Hamhuis should or will get Calder consideration...but it is fair to say he's being severely underrated by a lot of people in this thread. I've seen him shut down\completely undress Sakic, Naslund, Tkachuk, Marleau...the list goes on and on...and doing so on a team with a pretty horrible overall defense.

As for Liles, Lupul or Martin being ahead of Hamhuis...that's crack-talk, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt...and assuming you haven't seen much...or you're just being insultingly homeriffic.

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03-17-2004, 07:38 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
Yup thats right. Pitkanen's also a better PP player then Hamhuis.
If that's how you want to look at it...sure. I never said he wasn't.

Is he better defensively than Hamhuis Miss Rage?

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03-17-2004, 07:39 PM
  #70
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Ryder is much more than his numbers show. After a rough start (5 points in first 15 games) where he was playing well but couldn't convert, Ryder has amassed 52 points in his last 58 games. He's the reason the Habs are where they are: he's always competing and he can get to the net against any team in the league. He always gives a 2nd effort and will score goals at the most opportune time. He can carry his line when the other players have off games, like few forwards can do in the league.

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03-17-2004, 07:41 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smail
Ryder is much more than his numbers show. After a rough start (5 points in first 15 games) where he was playing well but couldn't convert, Ryder has amassed 52 points in his last 58 games. He's the reason the Habs are where they are: he's always competing and he can get to the net against any team in the league. He always gives a 2nd effort and will score goals at the most opportune time. He can carry his line when the other players have off games, like few forwards can do in the league.

defensively, i can say the EXACT same thing of hamhuis. for a rookie, he's outplayed timonen for much of the year.

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03-17-2004, 07:46 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
If that's how you want to look at it...sure. I never said he wasn't.

Is he better defensively than Hamhuis Miss Rage?

I don't know because I don't see enough of Hamhuis just like you don't see enough of Pitkanen to know. And you can't base it off of PK time because it was never in the plan for Pitkanen to get PK time. And I seriously doubt that if Hamius was on the Flyers with all the vetrans they can put out on the PK that Hamius would get any PK time on the Flyers either. Especially under Hitch who doesn't like to play young players in key situations at all. Therien got more minutes and PK time then Pitkanen. And Pitkanen was/is much better at all facets of the game including defense then Bundy was.

Pitkanen DOES lead his team in +/- though while Hamhuis is near the bottom on his team in +/-.
+/- is not an always meaningfull stat. But that to me is a much more meaningfull then PK time on two very different teams. Note, I'm not comparing the +/- across teams either. I'm comparing them to players on their respected teams.

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03-17-2004, 07:50 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
I don't know because I don't see enough of Hamhuis just like you don't see enough of Pitkanen to know. And you can't base it off of PK time because it was never in the plan for Pitkanen to get PK time. And I seriously doubt that if Hamius was on the Flyers with all the vetrans they can put out on the PK that Hamius would get any PK time on the Flyers either.

Pitkanen DOES lead his team in +/- though while Hamhuis is near the bottom on his team in +/-.
+/- is not an always meaningfull stat. But that to me is a much more meaningfull then PK time on two very different teams. Note, I'm not comparing the +/- across teams either. I'm comparing them to players on their respected teams.
I wonder if Pitkanen plays against Thornton's line, Sakic's line, Naslund's line, etc.

It's pretty hard to get many minuses on a great team playing 13:00 mins at even-strength per contest.

Let me assure you of one thing...if Pitkanen played against the foes that Hamhuis does 20:00 mins even-strength per game his +/- would be just as bad....actually way worse IMO.

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03-17-2004, 07:52 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
defensively, i can say the EXACT same thing of hamhuis. for a rookie, he's outplayed timonen for much of the year.
I'm not knocking Hamhuis, I haven't seen enough of him (or paid him enough attention) to comment on his abilities. I just think that Ryder is not given the credit that's due to him from reading many replys on this thread.

As a note, defensive players rarely ever win the calder, with Jackman being the exception last year because there wasn't much offensive talent.

Another young defenseman that hasn't been mentionned but is playing very well is Christian Backman.

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03-17-2004, 07:53 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
I wonder if Pitkanen plays against Thornton's line, Sakic's line, Naslund's line, etc.

It's pretty hard to get many minuses on a great team playing 13:00 mins at even-strength per contest.

Let me assure you of one thing...if Pitkanen played against the foes that Hamhuis does 20:00 mins even-strength per game his +/- would be just as bad....actually way worse IMO.

bear in mind also that the preds are one of the few playoff teams that's GA is slightly more than their GF. given the fact that the preds score the bulk of their goals on the PP(seventh ranked in the league), the opportunity for a plus isn't there as much.

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