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The Calder race should be a two horse race

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Old
03-18-2004, 09:02 AM
  #101
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he's a top 5 candidate IMO.

Dan Hamhuis is a FANTASTIC young d-men. Probably my 2nd favourite predator behind Scottie Walker.

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03-18-2004, 09:59 AM
  #102
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For what their worth - my thoughts on the issue:

We can argue til were blue in the face, but the fact is fans are going to back their guy no matter what. And that's fair game. Try your best to provide logical details why your guy deserves to be there and that's that.

That being said, I will provide you with my three finalists:

Raycroft: 50GP, 25-16-8, .929 Sav%, 3 Shutouts - Drafted 5th Round (135th) 1998
Phenomenal Numbers for a young goalie with a so-so defense in front of him. Nuff said.

Ryder: 73 GP, 22G, 35A, 57 pts, 10 PPG's, +6, - Drafted 8th Round (216th) 1998
Great 'hockey sense'. Gets in the right place at right time. Good 2-way player, lots of powerplay time. Solid 2nd line winger - could one day emerge as a 1st liner...time will tell.

Pitkanen: 64 GP, 8G 16A, 24 PTS, 5PPG, +16, - Drafted 1st Round (4th) 2002
A 20 year old D-man who does not play like a 20 year old. Showing great talent with ample time on the powerplay. Likely to develop into one of the great offensive D-men in the league this decade.

Hunter was the other candidate who could have replaced Pitkanen, but I believe the league will go this route so there will be a goalie, forward and defenseman. Each are deserving of many kudos for fine seasons, but only one of the many fine rookies will win, and it pains me, as a Habs fan to say that honour should go to Raycroft! I love Ryder's style of play, but what else is there to say about Raycroft's achievements this season.

Raycroft is the ROY.

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03-18-2004, 10:14 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Strappe
For what their worth - my thoughts on the issue:

We can argue til were blue in the face, but the fact is fans are going to back their guy no matter what. And that's fair game. Try your best to provide logical details why your guy deserves to be there and that's that.

That being said, I will provide you with my three finalists:

Raycroft: 50GP, 25-16-8, .929 Sav%, 3 Shutouts - Drafted 5th Round (135th) 1998
Phenomenal Numbers for a young goalie with a so-so defense in front of him. Nuff said.

Ryder: 73 GP, 22G, 35A, 57 pts, 10 PPG's, +6, - Drafted 8th Round (216th) 1998
Great 'hockey sense'. Gets in the right place at right time. Good 2-way player, lots of powerplay time. Solid 2nd line winger - could one day emerge as a 1st liner...time will tell.

Pitkanen: 64 GP, 8G 16A, 24 PTS, 5PPG, +16, - Drafted 1st Round (4th) 2002
A 20 year old D-man who does not play like a 20 year old. Showing great talent with ample time on the powerplay. Likely to develop into one of the great offensive D-men in the league this decade.

Hunter was the other candidate who could have replaced Pitkanen, but I believe the league will go this route so there will be a goalie, forward and defenseman. Each are deserving of many kudos for fine seasons, but only one of the many fine rookies will win, and it pains me, as a Habs fan to say that honour should go to Raycroft! I love Ryder's style of play, but what else is there to say about Raycroft's achievements this season.

Raycroft is the ROY.
I like your analysis....well done.

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Old
03-18-2004, 10:35 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by nomorekids
and hamhuis made skrastins expendable.
Was there some sort of time machine available in Nashville that made this statement possible?

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03-18-2004, 10:44 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
Others already dealt with the ice time issue, but even if it were true, it makes no difference. Rookie of the Year is about what you do on the ice. If your team sticks you on the fourth line, sticks you in the minors, sticks you in the pressbox, you can't win. Regardless of how much talent you have.

It doesn't matter what the reason was, Zetterberg was unable to perform well enough to win.
Hey, I have no beef with Jackman winning (ok, maybe a small beef...lol). But to say that Zetterberg was "unable" to perform is rediculous. He led all rookies in points. I'd say he did alright. Some of you people are hard to please. Very hard to please.

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03-18-2004, 10:45 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
also, Liles stats:

7 23 30

that's one more goal and 8 more assists from a defenseman who gets more PP time on a team that scores more goals...a defenseman that's offense is what makes him a good guy to have. hamhuis's offensive numbers are comparable enough...but his defensive play is light-years better than Liles. there's a poll over on the poll board that pretty much resolved the hamhuis vs liles dispute.
"light-years" is an obvious exagerration. Liles is the best offensive defenseman rookie this year in my opinion. His puck control, passing, and vision of the ice are extremely advanced (because of ability and age/college developement). That being said I wouldn't put him in great contention because he's not asked to play on the PK nor to play against 1st line pairings. Liles could be a sleeper for a future defensive star in the NHL but that's not what this is about. In the here in now, especially with defensemen you need to look at the entire package; Defensive positioning, skating, puck control, break out passing, physical presence, shot selection, shot accuracy/velocity, and of course general desion making like pinching, switching over, backing up your pairing etc....

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03-18-2004, 11:07 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
Liles is the best offensive defenseman rookie this year in my opinion. His puck control, passing, and vision of the ice are extremely advanced (because of ability and age/college developement).
I'd have to disagree there. I like Liles quite a bit, but IMO Pitkanen is a better offensive defenseman.

Pitkanen is the only new player on the PP for the Flyers this year, and is a huge reason why the Flyers have gone from having a dreadful PP the last few years, to the best PP in the NHL this year.

Now he's not the only reason for the jump in production, but he is a huge reason.

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03-18-2004, 11:24 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
Was there some sort of time machine available in Nashville that made this statement possible?

no, but trotz knew that last year, our big weakness was our transition game. houlder, hulse and skrastins were all solid in our end...but couldn't move the puck out. hamhuis, along with eaton's development, was an alternative that allowed us to move skrastins in favor of a defense that was as solid in our end...but better at the first pass. trotz has said that if skrastins was still here...hamhuis would never have gotten his shot. contrary to popular belief, skrastins wasn't traded for fun.

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Old
03-18-2004, 11:24 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Laperriere22
There's nothing unattractive about Ryder's game. He's far and away the best rookie forward in the league this season. I just give more weight to being exceptional in net or on defense as a rookie. Can Ryder even skate backwards? Probably not too well huh? Defense is the most difficult position to learn as far as I'm concerned. Hence it gets more weight from me and when someone does it as well as Hamhuis has, he deserves the recognition. Ryder is #3 in my book and this thread is not intended to diminish Ryder's accomplishments at all.
Actually, the defensive part of the game is easier to learn than the offensive part of the game at the NHL level. No wonder, the least talented team go on by playing defensive hockey. Plus, when you look at the top defensive forwards in the league today and in the past, the vast majority of them are ex-junior scoring sensations that were not able to put their game together at the NHL-level and had to adapt to a new role or perish.(Carbonneau in the late 80s and early 90s, Holki, Draper, Marchant, Lehtinen, Peca, even Yzerman and Modano nowadays...).


The fact is that in todays hockey with the embodiement of the system, about 90% of the players are RESPONSIBLE defensively. The other way around shows that about 20-25% (if not less) of NHL players (lower rate when you speak of true offensive defensemen and quarterbacks) can be consistent and generate offense night-in and night-out. The defensive part of the game is mostly about making the highest-percentage play and run a risk-free(well, minimum risk) game. It's all about position and anticipation. Others do it better than others and even bring a physical edge to it. But, for a scoring forward to suceed in the NHL, he as to execute low-percentage plays and make things than most of the rest can't do. Then again, the style of the game changes depending on the type of player. I've developp along my NHL career as a spectator much more admiration for a high-scoring forward than a rock-solid stay-at-home defenseman.

I'm not saying that in today's hockey it will win you some championships but in the end, the all-star scorer will always be king in my mind. It's easier to ask for an offensive defensemen to be responsible in his own zone than ask a stay-at-home defensemen to start chipping in offensively. Just ask Scott Stevens. (Use to be a quaterback and change his game while coming to the Devils thanks to Lemaire).

Anyways, Raycroft is gonna win the Calder pretty easily, he's been tremendous. And this coming from a Habs fan.

1. Raycroft
.
.
.
2. Ryder
3. Pitkanen
4. Hamhuis
5. Hunter
6. Malone
7. Bergeron (Without the injury, he would have bumped Hunter off the top 5)

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Old
03-18-2004, 11:26 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'd have to disagree there. I like Liles quite a bit, but IMO Pitkanen is a better offensive defenseman.

Pitkanen is the only new player on the PP for the Flyers this year, and is a huge reason why the Flyers have gone from having a dreadful PP the last few years, to the best PP in the NHL this year.

Now he's not the only reason for the jump in production, but he is a huge reason.

agreed.

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Old
03-18-2004, 11:37 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Strangelove91
Anyways, Raycroft is gonna win the Calder pretty easily, he's been tremendous. And this coming from a Habs fan.

1. Raycroft
.
.
.
2. Ryder
3. Pitkanen
4. Hamhuis
5. Hunter
6. Malone
7. Bergeron (Without the injury, he would have bumped Hunter off the top 5)
I agree with you there. As a Leafs fan, I've seen quite a bit of both Raycroft and Ryder, and both have left very good impressions on me. But Raycroft has single-handedly plugged the most gaping hole in the Bruins, and they are division leaders for it. If I had a vote, it'd go to Raycroft.

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Old
03-18-2004, 11:38 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
It doesn't seem like you read the thread, considering some of your comments. This thread is not about who produces more points. That argument can be determined by looking at the stats sheet.

Hamhuis and Pitkanen are almost on par when it comes to points. The difference is that a) Hamhuis plays a lot more minutes, which favours Pitkanen in a way, but b) Pitkanen gets te majority of his points on the PP, playing wiht future hall of famers...if you don't think that makes a difference in point production..then I guess that's your opinion.

I think the major reason for the arguments is simple, everyone arguing against Hamhuis has not seen more than 1-2 Preds games this year...if that's the case, stop arguing because you have ho basis for any claims against him...offensively or defensively.

And yes, IF Pitkanen was on Nashville he WOULD NOT be a +18....that's as close as you can get to being a factual statement.
Talk about hypocritical. I doubt you yourself have seen more than 1 or 2 Flyer's games this year. And FYI, I have Center Ice, and I happen to catch plenty of Nashville's games.

Just the fact that you thought I meant points or stats shows you have no idea how to evaulate a player. Production isn't about points. It's about contribution. Did I once bring up how Pitkanen has more points, or a better plus-minus? No, becuase they are in different situations and you can't compare them similarly. Let me turn it around on you, since you love the what if arguments so much.

Would Hamhuis, since he's so awesome, be able to crack the Flyer's top 6, and EARN his minutes? The Flyers when healthy have probably 10 NHL defenseman, and you know what? Pitkanen has already played himself into a Top 4. The reason he doesn't get minutes is Hitch doesn't want to wear him down, seeing as how this is his first season with this many games. He's just as solid defensively as offensively. He does make his gaffs, and when he does, gets benched. How would Hamhuis react if that were the case? I've seen him make his fair share of mistakes. But he still plays because Nashville has nobody else.


Last edited by thedjpd: 03-18-2004 at 11:41 AM.
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Old
03-18-2004, 11:43 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd
Talk about hypocritical. I doubt you yourself have seen more than 1 or 2 Flyer's games this year. And FYI, I have Center Ice, and I happen to catch plenty of Nashville's games.

Just the fact that you thought I meant points or stats shows you have no idea how to evaulate a playler. Production isn't about points. It's about contribution. Did I once bring up how Pitkanen has more points, or a better plus-minus? No, becuase they are in different situations and you
FYI production means producing points, does it not??? Contributing is a different story. Andrw Peters contributes by beating the hell outta people, he is not productive.

I have seen at least 12 Flyers games this year in full and about another 20 on and off, plus the highlights every night. As for Hamhuis I've been following him since the WJC, as you can tell I am very fond of his defensive game.

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03-18-2004, 11:46 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
FYI production means producing points, does it not??? Contributing is a different story. Andrw Peters contributes by beating the hell outta people, he is not productive.

I have seen at least 12 Flyers games this year in full and about another 20 on and off, plus the highlights every night. As for Hamhuis I've been following him since the WJC, as you can tell I am very fond of his defensive game.
Production doesn't mean points, not in this context. It can, but that's not my argument. Producing means earning your keep. Playing well enough so that you stay on the roster. There are plenty of players who produce very little in terms of numbers, but you would hate scratching them or trading them.

Regardless, I have no doubt you are fond of his defensive game. And it is very solid. Pitkanen's may not be as good, which is arguable, but it is still extremely solid on a very deep Flyers team. That's all my point is. To say things like "Pitkanen is miles behind Hamhuis" is being ignorant.

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03-18-2004, 11:48 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd
Production doesn't mean points, not in this context. It can, but that's not my argument. Producing means earning your keep. Playing well enough so that you stay on the roster. There are plenty of players who produce very little in terms of numbers, but you would hate scratching them or trading them.

Regardless, I have no doubt you are fond of his defensive game. And it is very solid. Pitkanen's may not be as good, which is arguable, but it is still extremely solid on a very deep Flyers team. That's all my point is. To say things like "Pitkanen is miles behind Hamhuis" is being ignorant.
Well I sure didn't say that, but fair enough

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03-18-2004, 11:48 AM
  #116
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One more thing...

Quote:
And yes, IF Pitkanen was on Nashville he WOULD NOT be a +18....that's as close as you can get to being a factual statement.
Prove it.

It's not always so cut and dry. :p

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03-18-2004, 11:57 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Well I sure didn't say that, but fair enough
Not in so many words... but you sure did imply it

Quote:
Why does he play the least amount of minutes out of all Flyers Defensemen?

I'll answer that for you.

He needs a lot of work on his defensive game.
And...

Quote:
Well why has Pitkanen only played a total of 4 minutes on the PK this entire year season? Because Hitch is trying to bring him around slowly? Doubtful IMO. I'm sure Hitch could have found a couple instants where he could try Joni on the PP, he averages 0:04 ice time on the PK, I'd say Hitch does his best from keeping Joni off the ice as much as possible when they are down a man.
And...

Quote:
The fact that Pitkanen is heavily used on the PP and never used on the PK, illustrates to me that the way his ice-time is managed by his coach is reflective of his game right now. Again, considering that Pitkanen plays high minutes on the PP, you'd think that he'd play the occasional(or even rare) PK time.

I don't think that Hamhuis is better than Pitkanen (you can see that on the 1st page of this thread), but I feel that:

1) Hamhuis is better defensively

2) Hamhuis is more valuable to his team than Joni is to the Flyers.

3) Joni Pitkanen's potential is much greater.
Sure seems like solid evidence to me. :p

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03-18-2004, 12:05 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
Liles is the best offensive defenseman rookie this year in my opinion. His puck control, passing, and vision of the ice are extremely advanced (because of ability and age/college developement). That being said I wouldn't put him in great contention because he's not asked to play on the PK nor to play against 1st line pairings. Liles could be a sleeper for a future defensive star in the NHL but that's not what this is about. In the here in now, especially with defensemen you need to look at the entire package; Defensive positioning, skating, puck control, break out passing, physical presence, shot selection, shot accuracy/velocity, and of course general desion making like pinching, switching over, backing up your pairing etc....
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'd have to disagree there. I like Liles quite a bit, but IMO Pitkanen is a better offensive defenseman.

Pitkanen is the only new player on the PP for the Flyers this year, and is a huge reason why the Flyers have gone from having a dreadful PP the last few years, to the best PP in the NHL this year.

Now he's not the only reason for the jump in production, but he is a huge reason.
I'm going to go against both of you guys and say that Paul Martin is the best offensive defenseman rookie. Martin stepped in this year as one who was expected to be sent to Albany for the season. Martin won his spot and provides a solid defensive (although not over-powering) game and sees about 19:00 a night. While he is currently trailing both Pitkanen and Liles in point production, considering the team defense concept that Pat Burns institutes and his offensively challenged team-mates (I could just hear John Flyers Fan saying "But Hitchcock . . .") he's done a more than adequate job offensively.

To be honest, I guess I can't really say who is better because I don't see Liles or Pitkanen play on a regular basis, but I just like the game that Martin plays more. He still has to put on some weight, but other than that, he's pretty complete.

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03-18-2004, 12:10 PM
  #119
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Solid evidence of what???????????

That is not evidence that I think Hamhuis is light years ahead of Joni. Not even close to it.

1) Hamhuis is better defensively

2) Hamhuis is more valuable to his team

3) Pitkanen's potential is much greater

As far as I'm concerned the above points are VALID and fair to both players considering their roles on their respective teams. How bout I add in #4:

4) Pitkanen is better offensively

Actually Joni has a greater edge over Hamhuis with his offensive game than Hamhuis' edge over Joni in the defensive end.

If you want concrete evidence that I never implied and don't believe that Hamhuis is light years ahead of Joni look no further than the 1st page of this thread, where I listed my top 5 Calder candidates......

I dare you to post a poll asking if Joni Pitkanen would be a +18 or greater as the #1-2 defenseman on Nashville this season, I think "NO" would be overwelming response, if not unanymous.

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03-18-2004, 12:12 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by #44_delivers
that sounds spot on.
this has been a very thick year for quality rookies.
hats off to raycroft and ryder for having the best positive impact on there team.
Positive influence. Philly's powerplay went from 25-30 last year to first this year. Large part of that is Pitkanen.

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03-18-2004, 12:21 PM
  #121
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As for Pitkanen vs. Hamhuis, that's the popular opinion, but I don't find it all that accurate. Pitkanen's been good, but he doesn't get the minutes that Hamhuis does because he's on a deeper team. He doesn't play in all situations nor is he called on to do so all that often. He only has a few more points than Hamhuis at best and this is with Pitkanen seeing solid PP time. Not to mention that Pitkanen is looked upon to put points on the board, especially on the PP, whereas Hamhuis plays a more defensive role because Zidlicky plays the Pitkanen role on his team. Pitkanen's year is greatly overrated. Hamhuis has done a lot more than Pitkanen has this year and everytime I read Pitkanen being the top defensive rookie in the league, I can't help but chuckle. Pitkanen is going to be great player, but this year, Hamhuis has outplayed him. I'd also rate Liles and Backman ahead of Pitkanen just based on this season. Just because most everybody automatically says Pitkanen doesn't make him the best rookie defenseman this year. Ditto the empty opinions of most sportswriters out there.


You contradict yourself in two ways. Pitkanen doesn't get the minutes that Hamhuis does yet he posts more numbers. You are the one who has turned a blind eye and doesn't obviously watch Flyer hockey. Pitkanen plays in all roles. Penaly kill, even strength etc. Power play yes, but this guys deserves alot of credit for it. It shouldn't be negative point in your arguement that he gets some pp points. Obviously he is that good if he does get that much power play time on a team that you say has alot of depth. On top of just playing on it he has tremendously helped it to go from one of the worst 5 last year to this years best.

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03-18-2004, 12:28 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech

As for Pitkanen vs. Hamhuis, that's the popular opinion, but I don't find it all that accurate. Pitkanen's been good, but he doesn't get the minutes that Hamhuis does because he's on a deeper team. He doesn't play in all situations nor is he called on to do so all that often. He only has a few more points than Hamhuis at best and this is with Pitkanen seeing solid PP time. Not to mention that Pitkanen is looked upon to put points on the board, especially on the PP, whereas Hamhuis plays a more defensive role because Zidlicky plays the Pitkanen role on his team. Pitkanen's year is greatly overrated. Hamhuis has done a lot more than Pitkanen has this year and everytime I read Pitkanen being the top defensive rookie in the league, I can't help but chuckle. Pitkanen is going to be great player, but this year, Hamhuis has outplayed him. I'd also rate Liles and Backman ahead of Pitkanen just based on this season. Just because most everybody automatically says Pitkanen doesn't make him the best rookie defenseman this year. Ditto the empty opinions of most sportswriters out there.


You contradict yourself in two ways. Pitkanen doesn't get the minutes that Hamhuis does yet he posts more numbers. You are the one who has turned a blind eye and doesn't obviously watch Flyer hockey. Pitkanen plays in all roles. Penaly kill, even strength etc. Power play yes, but this guys deserves alot of credit for it. It shouldn't be negative point in your arguement that he gets some pp points. Obviously he is that good if he does get that much power play time on a team that you say has alot of depth. On top of just playing on it he has tremendously helped it to go from one of the worst 5 last year to this years best.
I'm not sure who you are directing your post to but the stats prove that Joni doesn't play in all situations. He averages 0:04 PK ice-time per game...

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03-18-2004, 12:35 PM
  #123
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besides, no one is disputing the fact that Pitkanen is by far the better offensive defenseman. just that hamhuis's defense is better, and that their overall value is around the same. the flyers would much rather have pitkanen, the predators would much rather have hamhuis. it's as simple as that.

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03-18-2004, 12:41 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
besides, no one is disputing the fact that Pitkanen is by far the better offensive defenseman. just that hamhuis's defense is better, and that their overall value is around the same. the flyers would much rather have pitkanen, the predators would much rather have hamhuis. it's as simple as that.

I disagree. You'd have only a handful of Flyer fans willing to trade Pitkanen for Hamhuis however %85 of Nashville fans would trade for Pitkanen. A poll was already done by this guy who my cousins neighbour knows. Seriously though. Pitkanen is way more valuable, doesn't matter which team. Any gm in the league would want Pitkanen over Hamhuis

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03-18-2004, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech
I disagree. You'd have only a handful of Flyer fans willing to trade Pitkanen for Hamhuis however %85 of Nashville fans would trade for Pitkanen. A poll was already done by this guy who my cousins neighbour knows. Seriously though. Pitkanen is way more valuable, doesn't matter which team. Any gm in the league would want Pitkanen over Hamhuis
oh? go post a poll on the preds board. we do not need another offensive d-man. Timonen and Zidlicky is arguably the best point-duo on the power play in the league. pitkanen wouldn't even get the chance to be valuable. we have a ton of great offensive d-men in the system, and not many stay-at-home guys. we don't need offense from our d-men...we need defense.

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