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Old
04-08-2009, 12:22 PM
  #26
Kingler
 
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Seems like a fair deal value wise but a deal that both teams probably won't do...

For the Flyers, Hartnell is an important part of the team. For the Kings, if they are serious about going after a high price UFA, then they will need the $4.2M (Hartnell cap hit) to resign Frolov.

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04-08-2009, 12:31 PM
  #27
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How far away from the NHL is Zatkoff?

The Flyers need someone who can step in right now, so I'd think if they were to trade with LA, it would be for Bernier or Quick.

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Old
04-08-2009, 12:50 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think the Flyers will be trying to move Lupul to free up cap space, but it's only going to happen if they realize that they aren't going to get a huge return.

A high first round pick for Lupul would be out of the question.
Umberger got the 18th pick last year, so if Lupul can have a productive playoff series like RJ did against Montreal it will do wonders for his trade value.

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Old
04-08-2009, 12:57 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
How are you defining valuable, because Lupul isn't nearly as valuable as the above player?
I told you how I was defining the value for that little stretch. Production wise. Lupul produces as much if not more than anyone I mentioned on that list. He's NOT INCONSISTENT. He puts up as much points as any other freaking 50+ point player.

He just seems inconsistent because he doesn't necessarily bring any intangibles to his game. He can vanish which is the biggest knock against him. It's certainly not his ability to put up points.

Hartnell on the other hand will usually give you a little more in points (not much) and brings all the intangibles in the world to the table.

That's why Lupul has lower value. It's not because of his contract because that's not all that high for a 50 point forward.

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Old
04-08-2009, 01:10 PM
  #30
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Regardless of price, he has a NTC... No point in the discussion, he seems to like it in Philly.

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Old
04-08-2009, 01:35 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Lupul is a big downgrade from Hartnell...I don't think LA does that deal.
And this is why fans make terrible armchair GM's. You do realize that Lupul is actually further ahead of where Hartnell was just 2 years ago when we signed him right???? Hartnell just this year became a 30 goal scorer for the first time EVER in his career. Lupul is on a better progression path than Hartnell. Now I understand that they are different types of players but Lupul has and always will have better talent than Hartnell. Mike Knuble didn't become a first line winger until he was about 30 years old. Lupul is a solid legit 2nd line winger right now at only 25 and though he will most likely be a 2nd line winger for the next 2 seasons he has an EXCELENT chance to become a true 1st line scoring winger after that. He'll never be an allstar but he's not the slouch you guys are all making him out to be.

Edit: And remember, just last year everyone here was still laughing at the Flyers for signing Hartnell to a 4.2 mil contract for 6 years and NOBODY wanted to touch him at that price. Now it seems as though every team in the league wants him an his 4.2 mil contract of the next 4 years. Just wait until next year when Lupul is hitting 30 goals and 65 points, then you all will be back asking for him in a trade too.


Last edited by phlocky: 04-08-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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Old
04-08-2009, 03:19 PM
  #32
rajuabju
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Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post
Draft Day. Trying to gauge what both sides think so feel free to flame I suppose.

To PHI: LA's 1st (about 5th or 6th overall) + Jeff Zatkoff + 4th round pick

To LA: Scott Hartnell + PHI 1st (mid 20s abouts)

Philly gets a great future player (a B. Schenn, Cowen, Kane, etc), a good young goalie prospect (there isn't much talk about Zatkoff but he puts up good numbers), and a 4th in a deep draft (throw-in). They also free up cap room to use to address some team needs in the offseason, such as signing a better goalie or a #1/2 D-man (Jaybo maybe?). LA gets a gritty scorer coming off a fantastic year and a 1st rounder that should still land someone pretty decent.
Coming from a Kings perspective, at first glance, I thought no. That top 5 pick is going to be very useful for us picking up one of the top prospects in the draft.

But spending some time thinking about it further, I am warming up to this deal. Hartnell would fit with the Kings pretty well. He fills a hole we have in our top 6 with some good offensive prowess and is a character guy DL loves. I agree its a semi-deep draft, though the talent pool drops off significantly by the time we get to the latter stages of the 1st round.

Going to Philly, the 1st rounder obviously has a lot of value. Zatkoff is a seriously underrated goalie. He's been overshadowed by Quick, Bernier and even Taylor to some degree. I'm not sure Zatkoff will ever be a legit #1 goalie, but he has the skillset to develop into a #1b or very solid #2 guy. He's just stuck in a goaltending logjam, or he'd be with the Monarchs right now.

The 4th is whatever I guess. The Kings do have a lot of picks still with the stockpiling DL has done in the past few years so I dont mind it as a throw in.

As for downgrading to Lupul, thats a big pass.

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Old
04-08-2009, 03:40 PM
  #33
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Hartness too important to Flyers for what he brings everyday game

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Old
04-08-2009, 05:29 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
How far away from the NHL is Zatkoff?

The Flyers need someone who can step in right now, so I'd think if they were to trade with LA, it would be for Bernier or Quick.
I guess nobody's answered your question yet.

Bernier or Zatkoff both MIGHT be near NHL-ready, but we won't know until the beginning of the season when they get tried out. By that time it will be too late for a deal.

The only two known NHL-ready goalies we have right now are Quick and Ersberg, and we have a lot more confidence in Quick than Ersberg. Lombardi's job is on the line next season so he won't deal Quick since we will need consistent goaltending to make the playoffs, which leaves Ersberg. Not proven enough IMO, but I'd be happy to give him to you in any deal that improves the offense. If I were Philly though, I would look elsewhere for goaltending help.

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Old
04-08-2009, 05:52 PM
  #35
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I don't do this from a Flyers perspective. Hartnell is too important.

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Old
04-08-2009, 05:57 PM
  #36
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I was totally against Hartnell as recent as November, but he's been our most consistent forward since the glove-throwing incident, and that includes Jeff Carter

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Old
04-08-2009, 05:59 PM
  #37
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Hartnell would be an awesome, but because of that NTC, how about a counter-proposal:

PHI Gets: LA 4th round pick + Drew Bagnall

LA Gets: 5 inches of Hartnells hair + transplants fees to re-attach on to Wayne Simmonds.

For 8 inches PHI can also have Dan Taylor.

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Old
04-08-2009, 06:12 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
So.... you wanna provide a strong team with a top 5 pick... a great future Goalie and another pick
for a 3rd liner and a pick in the 20th ????????

Serious... Zattkoff is betther than most people here know. May watch some games before put him in trade props
Wow.... please dont make us kings fans look bad.... If I recall this is the second time I have seen you post something like this.

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Old
04-08-2009, 06:15 PM
  #39
LEIFey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Hartnell would be an awesome, but because of that NTC, how about a counter-proposal:

PHI Gets: LA 4th round pick + Drew Bagnall

LA Gets: 5 inches of Hartnells hair + transplants fees to re-attach on to Wayne Simmonds.

For 8 inches PHI can also have Dan Taylor.
we'll throw in the hair on his unmentionables for dustin brown

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:01 PM
  #40
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I always wanted Harts. Kurrilno, their really isnt room for Zatkoff, who would go to the Eastern Conference. Ersberg is 26. Quick and Bernier are younger, not sure how much. We also have Rowat, Taylor, and Jones. Would they want Linden Rowat instead(IMO think Zats is better. If DL wanted more, maybe another pick or decent prospect. Not dumb enough to say we want Van Riemsdyk or else the deal doesnt work.

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:32 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idlehnds View Post
Wow.... please dont make us kings fans look bad.... If I recall this is the second time I have seen you post something like this.
was just to pint out how far away that offer is.......
Hartnell is a perfect 2nd liner. But he depends on his linemates.

I just said, to give away the higher Value + a 1st rounder on top is a little bit overpaid.
It's just because nobody here knows Zattkoff.
I would like to see the guys when a Philly guy would open the exact proposal with Bernier instead of Zattkoff.
Thank God Lombardi is the GM.

The times for Kings overpayment is over

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:33 PM
  #42
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Philly and LA don't make good trading partners unless Philly needs to dump the contract of a player LA can really use like a Gagne. Hartnell is a 2nd line player and we already have Stoll, Brown, Williams and others that are kinda unproven on a 1st line and probably too good for a 2nd like like Frolov and Kopitar. And we have a lot of nice young players like Simmonds, Moller, Richardson and to lesser extent Purcell and Boyle, who are ready to step in to 2nd line roles.

We don't need to drop our valuable asset, a pick which might potentially net us a future 1st liner, for yet another 2nd liner. Basically the Kings already can roll 2x 2nd lines. If we trade this pick, it better either get us an even higher pick to get a better, more NHL-ready prospect like potentially MSP or it better get us a legit 1st line player in a package.

- R

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:37 PM
  #43
Kurrilino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Foley View Post
I always wanted Harts. Kurrilno, their really isnt room for Zatkoff, who would go to the Eastern Conference. Ersberg is 26. Quick and Bernier are younger, not sure how much. We also have Rowat, Taylor, and Jones. Would they want Linden Rowat instead(IMO think Zats is better. If DL wanted more, maybe another pick or decent prospect. Not dumb enough to say we want Van Riemsdyk or else the deal doesnt work.
It's not the Point that we need Zattkoff or not.
Just because we don't need him,means we give him away for far less value then he has.

It's like Philly gives away Carter + 1st rounder for Simmonds + 2nd Rounder because they have enough great Center.

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:38 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Philly and LA don't make good trading partners unless Philly needs to dump the contract of a player LA can really use like a Gagne. Hartnell is a 2nd line player and we already have Stoll, Brown, Williams and others that are kinda unproven on a 1st line and probably too good for a 2nd like like Frolov and Kopitar. And we have a lot of nice young players like Simmonds, Moller, Richardson and to lesser extent Purcell and Boyle, who are ready to step in to 2nd line roles.

We don't need to drop our valuable asset, a pick which might potentially net us a future 1st liner, for yet another 2nd liner. Basically the Kings already can roll 2x 2nd lines. If we trade this pick, it better either get us an even higher pick to get a better, more NHL-ready prospect like potentially MSP or it better get us a legit 1st line player in a package.

- R
that is exactly what i tried to said.

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:44 PM
  #45
DapperDan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
was just to pint out how far away that offer is.......
Hartnell is a perfect 2nd liner. But he depends on his linemates.

I just said, to give away the higher Value + a 1st rounder on top is a little bit overpaid.
It's just because nobody here knows Zattkoff.
I would like to see the guys when a Philly guy would open the exact proposal with Bernier instead of Zattkoff.
Thank God Lombardi is the GM.

The times for Kings overpayment is over
Hartnell went from being a 3rd liner to a 2nd liner damn fast

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:46 PM
  #46
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You guys do realize Hartnell - Carter - Lupul is the Flyers FIRST line right?

They start the games, score the most goals etc.

So you guys saying Hartnell and Lupul are 2nd line wingers, and they're something you don't need more of better think long and hard because Hartnell would be your 2nd most productive forward and Lupul would be your 4th.

I know you want Gagne because he would be your first. Well you're not getting him. Sorry.

To get you have to give, and since the Flyers don't need to dump salary and don't exactly need more first round drafts picks to rebuild with (we reload in the latter part of the round) I don't think you're getting very much of anything from the Flyers.

I don't think the Flyers are giving up Lupul. You throw a top 6 first rounder and we'd probably think twice, but other than that it's a no go.

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:53 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
You guys do realize Hartnell - Carter - Lupul is the Flyers FIRST line right?

They start the games, score the most goals etc.

So you guys saying Hartnell and Lupul are 2nd line wingers, and they're something you don't need more of better think long and hard because Hartnell would be your 2nd most productive forward and Lupul would be your 4th.

I know you want Gagne because he would be your first. Well you're not getting him. Sorry.

To get you have to give, and since the Flyers don't need to dump salary and don't exactly need more first round drafts picks to rebuild with (we reload in the latter part of the round) I don't think you're getting very much of anything from the Flyers.

I don't think the Flyers are giving up Lupul. You throw a top 6 first rounder and we'd probably think twice, but other than that it's a no go.
christ, fine keep all your players. the way you go on about them you'd think the flyers were a lock for the Cup. except they're not. far from it, in fact. I'd pick at least 3-4 teams before I put my money on philly. and if you forgot, that is pretty much the point of it all: old mr. stanley. homerism has reached new highs on these boards

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Old
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot723 View Post
Aren't Hartnell and a healthy Justin Williams sort of redundant?
Yes, Gagne would be a better fit for the Kings. Right now Williams-Kopitar-Frolov are playing well together. Gagne would fit well with Stoll & Brown next year.

How about the Kings 1st & Moller/Boyle for Gagne?

The Kings get a player who fills out their top 6 & Flyers get some cap relief, a player who can fit in now & the future; plus a 1st.

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Old
04-08-2009, 10:42 PM
  #49
Dave in LA
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the kings need a 1a/1b center. Stoll and Zus are not 2nd line centers.

I would rather have Carter than Hartnell. But we all know that is not going to happen.

As some have said already, Phi & LA are not good trading partners.

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Old
04-08-2009, 10:45 PM
  #50
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christ, fine keep all your players. the way you go on about them you'd think the flyers were a lock for the Cup. except they're not. far from it, in fact. I'd pick at least 3-4 teams before I put my money on philly. and if you forgot, that is pretty much the point of it all: old mr. stanley. homerism has reached new highs on these boards
What does winning the Cup this season, post-trade deadline, have to do with getting rid of very good players for less than very good returns? Oh, right. NOTHING.

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