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Dynamo Moscow signs Omark and Harju

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:25 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
That this is not a quick fix and that the Oilers (When they decided to roll with 12 rookies in the last 3 years) know that.

There is little sense now in going out and acquiring these guys... you've already spent money (and wins) in playing guys like Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson, Gilbert, Grebs, etc...

The plan now (if you want to model Detroit) is to grow with these guys until they are vets, then work in the 1 or 2 young players every year and replace one of the older guys as you go.

Much like Detroit has done with guys like Fedorov, Shanahan, Yzerman and Chelios.
I can't disagree that would be the logical thing to do but signing Souray, trading for Visnovsky and chasing moonbeams indicates that is not the plan (see Jagr).

The other problem, is that the kids are easily outclassed by the kids on other teams that have benefitted from higher draft choices so, even if that patient approach was the plan of attack, it's likely going to result in more mediocrity.

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04-08-2009, 08:32 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Why would you guarantee him a roster spot without having any sort of idea on if he can play at the NHL level?

The idea behind it is if he can play, great he plays. If he can't there's the AHL where he can get used to the North American game.

Imagine if they "guarantee" him a roster spot and he comes over and can't handle the play at the NHL level... what then?
Allz I'm sayin' is, you better hope this doesn't backfire on the Oilers.

Who do you think puts up more points in the SEL -> Stortini, Pouliot, Reddox, Brodziak or Omark. I'm thinkin' Omark.

I understand your logic, I still think it's worth a shot since the org. is in dire straights.

We'll see how he does in the KHL.

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04-08-2009, 08:33 PM
  #378
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So Omark and Harju ran away from thier teams and eloped on the advice of thier agent since niether can stand on thier own. In a year they'll demand serious coin trying to pass themselves off as the second coming of the Sedins. No thanks.

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04-08-2009, 08:33 PM
  #379
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Swedes aren't supposed to care about money.....

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04-08-2009, 08:33 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I can't disagree that would be the logical thing to do but signing Souray, trading for Visnovsky and chasing moonbeams indicates that is not the plan (see Jagr).
Not necessarily. You can still bring in these vets and in most cases, it's as these vets deals expire that you expect this current crop to go and take their spot.

Overall, a complete rebuild was probably a better idea, and as much as people here like to tout it as a great plan, it's a very painful route and ends up being very hard on the fans.

There aren't too many orgs that went through a re-build and maintained strong fan support while sucking the big one.

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The other problem, is that the kids are easily outclassed by the kids on other teams that have benefitted from higher draft choices so, even if that patient approach was the plan of attack, it's likely going to result in more mediocrity.
Well, the hope is you develop these kids into better players overall. They may always be behind offensively, but it doesn't mean that they can't be better when it comes to contributing to W's.

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04-08-2009, 08:35 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Into a better real player, or a better flashier player?

If it's A, you are sadly mistaken.
8+ years is enough for me to suggest that MacT doesn't know 2 ***** about developing real players. I'm afraid that you're the one who's mistaken.

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04-08-2009, 08:36 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by TheSpecialist View Post
8+ years is enough for me to suggest that MacT doesn't know 2 ***** about developing real players. I'm afraid that you're the one who's mistaken.
I guess that depends on how many players here were quality players during his reign, and which ones should have been better than they were, and would have under a different coach.

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04-08-2009, 08:40 PM
  #383
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now that its been announced omark has an out-clause in his contract after the 1st year, it will be *very* interesting to see how he does in the KHL... its regarded as one of the top-5 leagues in the world (as was the SEL) and is generally very defensive.... if omark is the real-deal, he should be able to put up good numbers next year as well.... if he doesn't, we'll know that he certainly wouldn't have done so in the NHL either next season

if he does do well in the KHL though, the oilers would be very foolish to not give him a good contract offer (if its true that we'll still own his rights, as has been speculated around here today)

a very good season in one pro league could be a lucky year where everything broke right... having two good years in a row, in 2 different pro leagues, would seem to indicate a very good player.... time will tell

also, if we do indeed hold his rights then him playing in the KHL this season might be the best for all involved.... he'll have another chance to prove himself in a pro league and the oilers will have a year to figure out exactly what their cap problems will be in 2010-11 and make a decision in regards to omark.... if nilsson plays like crap again next year or if he improves greatly, it makes the oilers decision easier one way or the other (for example)

if we hold his rights AND he has an out clause, then all is not as bad as originally thought - but both of these things need to be confirmed by oilers management

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04-08-2009, 08:41 PM
  #384
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I guess that depends on how many players here were quality players during his reign, and which ones should have been better than they were, and would have under a different coach.
At least 90% of the players MacTavish coached would have been better under a different coach. The fact is, MacTavish is inept when it comes to coaching talented players.

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04-08-2009, 08:42 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
Allz I'm sayin' is, you better hope this doesn't backfire on the Oilers.
Of course that's the hope. That's the hope with any move.

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Who do you think puts up more points in the SEL -> Stortini, Pouliot, Reddox, Brodziak or Omark. I'm thinkin' Omark.
Doesn't really matter. Who'd win more fights in the NHL? Stortini or Omark? Who'd win more faceoffs Brodziak or Omark? Who'd be better on the PK Reddox or Omark?

The problem is (and this is based on the bonuses), Omark needs to contribute offensively here to justify the cap hit. All those players you mentioned have cap hits under the base Salary Omark would get.

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I understand your logic, I still think it's worth a shot since the org. is in dire straights.

We'll see how he does in the KHL.
If they want to win the cup next year they are in dire straights... long term I don't think they are.

It would be well worth the shot if Omark wouldn't completely rule out the AHL. As it stands, the Oilers have to sign him, bring him in past the date in which you can be over the cap (which means the inability to sign other players), and then determine if he can play or not before potentially sending him back home.

This isn't a clear cut issue here (again, depending on the bonuses). There is a big risk in both directions.

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04-08-2009, 08:43 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by TheSpecialist View Post
At least 90% of the players MacTavish coached would have been better under a different coach. The fact is, MacTavish is inept when it comes to coaching talented players.
And this is based on? I get you hate the guy, but making crap up, doesn't help your argument.

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04-08-2009, 08:44 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by TheSpecialist View Post
At least 90% of the players MacTavish coached would have been better under a different coach. The fact is, MacTavish is inept when it comes to coaching talented players.
Your examples are intriguing.

His list of skilled players that were capable of playing in the NHL has been a rather short one.

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04-08-2009, 08:46 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Not necessarily. You can still bring in these vets and in most cases, it's as these vets deals expire that you expect this current crop to go and take their spot.

Overall, a complete rebuild was probably a better idea, and as much as people here like to tout it as a great plan, it's a very painful route and ends up being very hard on the fans.

There aren't too many orgs that went through a re-build and maintained strong fan support while sucking the big one.



Well, the hope is you develop these kids into better players overall. They may always be behind offensively, but it doesn't mean that they can't be better when it comes to contributing to W's.
It would appear Columbus, STL and even LA are ahead of the curve there. But, as you say, there is always hope.

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04-08-2009, 08:49 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
It would appear Columbus, STL and even LA are ahead of the curve there. But, as you say, there is always hope.
How is LA ahead of the curve, missing the playoffs by alot for the what, 6 or 7 season in a row?

LA has alot of decent kids, I can't deny that, but if you're going to put them, LA, in a group with Columbus (who's been doing it mostly with veteran input, save for Mason) and St. Louis who's kids have coming along nicely, they have to put up in some way. And beating the Oilers last game isn't enough.

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04-08-2009, 08:55 PM
  #390
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You guys can say whatever you want. That's just my opinion. I can go on and on and give you a handful of examples but what's the point? I'd only be repeating myself for the 100th time or so I'm just gonna leave it at that.

You guys will never get it until the team actually decides to move in a new direction which means hiring a new coach. The sooner that happens the better.

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04-08-2009, 08:56 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Then 4 and 3.

Nowhere does that equal $7mil/year.
where iam from if it says I made 80k on my T4, then that's what i made

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04-08-2009, 09:00 PM
  #392
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But it's not about the money...

Right.
Seachd I rarely see you show emotion about prospects like this, what's up?

You really wanted Omark here that badly or you just hate that he signed over there?

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04-08-2009, 09:03 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
It would appear Columbus, STL and even LA are ahead of the curve there. But, as you say, there is always hope.
Columbus has already gone through their young player development with a lot of their key players.

Nash spent 3 years cherry picking before Hitchcock got him to start learning how to play like a legitimate NHL player... and now he is one.

Columbus has a lot of their younger players (aside from Voracek, Russell and Mason) who have played 4 seasons and 300 NHL games.

LA are still behind the Oilers though. They are getting into big contracts (where decisions need to be made) and they aren't making much in terms of progress towards getting better.

St. Louis is ahead of the curve. They've also had a dramatic increase in specialty teams while being a poor ES team. It will be interesting to see how that trend unfolds over the next couple of years.

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04-08-2009, 09:03 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
How is LA ahead of the curve, missing the playoffs by alot for the what, 6 or 7 season in a row?

LA has alot of decent kids, I can't deny that, but if you're going to put them, LA, in a group with Columbus (who's been doing it mostly with veteran input, save for Mason) and St. Louis who's kids have coming along nicely, they have to put up in some way. And beating the Oilers last game isn't enough.
Murray has spent an entire season teaching his youngsters how to play defense and it's working.

GA/G 12th PK% 6th SA/G 5th

Dawgbone's point was the Oilers youngsters might benefit from learning to be better two way players but LA is already doing that with more success.

And, I wouldn't be pointing to making the playoffs as a measure of success any longer Jimmi. The Oilers have now missed 4 of the past 5 years.

LA should be in next season...the Oilers not likely unless there are major changes.

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04-08-2009, 09:05 PM
  #395
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Who cares about 1.4 million a year when hor *******^*U^* coff is getting 7.

Exactly. When you've made a mistake, why not make the same mistake over and over and over again?

P.S. - Lowe did the Horcoff deal, and it's likely Tambellini driving the bus now on not signing Omark.

I like Tambellini so far.

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04-08-2009, 09:12 PM
  #396
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That didn't appear to be the issue. If Oilers said "Here's the max, but play in the AHL for a year if you cannot make the team" and he still declined, then you might have a point.
He's already stated he won't play in the AHL in past interviews.

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04-08-2009, 09:13 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Ville Leino played 13 NHL games and 55 AHL games.

Fabian Brunnstrom played 52 NHL games and 1 AHL game.

Janne Pesonen played 7 NHL games and 66 AHL games.

Nikolai Kulemin played 71 NHL games and 5 AHL games.

2 out of the 4 played a majority of the season in the AHL, which Omark has already said he won't do. If the guy was willing to come over and perhaps play in the AHL (if he needs it), it might be a different story.

If he's looking for the rookie max in base, but not much in bonuses, and he's willing to play in the AHL if he needs it, the Oilers should sign him without issue.

If he's asking for the moon in bonuses plus the rookie max, it's another issue altogether.

Also, he doesn't have to come and play 70 AHL games... if it turns out that he's going to be in the AHL for a while, there's nothing stopping them from working out an agreement where he can play X number of AHL games, and then he either needs to be in the NHL or the Oilers have to let him go back to Europe.
I agree with everything you said completely. But the majority of the speculation in this thread seems to be around $$ and not his willingness or lack there of of playing in the AHL if need be.

If it does turn out to be a simple matter of the Oilers not willing to pay him the rookie max, bonuses aside, then in my opinion they've dropped the ball.

If it's a matter where he's looking for a guaranteed roster spot as well as the money, then I would agree that he's demanding too much.

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04-08-2009, 09:13 PM
  #398
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And this is based on? I get you hate the guy, but making crap up, doesn't help your argument.
Most recent example is Cole. PPG for Canes, 1/3 of that for us.

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04-08-2009, 09:13 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Heavy Dee View Post
where iam from if it says I made 80k on my T4, then that's what i made
Where I'm from, when you toss in the word a year it means per year. If I make $80k this year and $60k next year, I don't make $80k a year.

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04-08-2009, 09:14 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Columbus has already gone through their young player development with a lot of their key players.

Nash spent 3 years cherry picking before Hitchcock got him to start learning how to play like a legitimate NHL player... and now he is one.

Columbus has a lot of their younger players (aside from Voracek, Russell and Mason) who have played 4 seasons and 300 NHL games.

LA are still behind the Oilers though. They are getting into big contracts (where decisions need to be made) and they aren't making much in terms of progress towards getting better.

St. Louis is ahead of the curve. They've also had a dramatic increase in specialty teams while being a poor ES team. It will be interesting to see how that trend unfolds over the next couple of years.
I'm not sure why you think LA is in cap trouble and any decisions that need to be made are good ones.

Lombardi has onlty had the team for 2 years and they are only 6 points behind the Oilers this season.

As young as they are, I can't see any way they don't progress more quickly.

But then again I thought Chicago, Columbus and St. Louis were improving more than the Oilers, so what do I know?

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