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Simon Gagne

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Old
04-08-2009, 07:44 PM
  #1
BillyShoe1721
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Simon Gagne

Before everyone jumps on me, I know that Gagne is an important part of the team, and that he has NTC. I really like Gags, and I still think he is an elite player in the NHL. With Holmgren reportedly wanting to get bigger up front, Gagne could be one to go because of the tremendous value he has, which could return us a top pairing defenseman or elite goaltender. I don't want Gagne to be traded, but he may become a casualty with his contract (even though it's a bargain for him, 5.25M is 5.25M) and with Giroux as his possible replacement, what would his value be while he is still fairly young? I don't expect him to be traded, but what would your team give up? I'd imagine LA, Edmonton, and Anaheim would have a lot of interest. Serious ideas only, please.

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04-08-2009, 08:24 PM
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Soundwave
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Well it's tricky because basically Philly cannot take on much salary, right?

Oilers offer

Cogliano + Smid + EDM 2nd

Maybe you could push them to change that pick to a 1st (which is currently 9th overall I think). I still am somewhat scared though that Gagne is one hit away from curtains.

Terrific player though. If the L.A. offers their 1st rounder straight across, I think Holmgren would bite.

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04-08-2009, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post

Oilers offer

Cogliano + Smid + EDM 2nd
Normally not enough, but given cap circumstances i think they consider it.

Anyways, the best offer the Sens have is:

Foligno + Kelly + 1st 2010 (this years isn't available + Holmgren would probably not trade him before this years draft if he ever would)

for gagne and maybe an AHLer or something?

Sorry if you don't think that post was serious btw... that's just what I would give up for him... I don't know if i would add more because Foligno is playing REALLY well and is developing nicely in to a 3rd/2nd liner

It's too bad you can't take on cap though because I have a feeling anaheim would be willing to part ways with Giguere if they could get a Gagne type player


Last edited by Regin 43*: 04-08-2009 at 08:48 PM.
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Old
04-08-2009, 08:46 PM
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would it be too much, or even too little if the kings gave Boyle + LA 1st + simmonds

im not too familiar with simmonds or boyle but what ive seen from them they are decent prospects., simmonds has been up most of he year, boyle has bee nup and down and the 1st will be prolly 6-8

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by schenn29 View Post
would it be too much, or even too little if the kings gave Boyle + LA 1st + simmonds

im not too familiar with simmonds or boyle but what ive seen from them they are decent prospects., simmonds has been up most of he year, boyle has bee nup and down and the 1st will be prolly 6-8
I think that is a pretty fair offer. It definitely kicks my offers ass lol

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04-08-2009, 08:49 PM
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yay cuzz im not ver ygood at these things lol

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:51 PM
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Soundwave
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Originally Posted by coaster1330 View Post
Normally not enough, but given cap circumstances i think they consider it.

Anyways, the best offer the Sens have is:

Foligno + Kelly + 1st 2010 (this years isn't available + Holmgren would probably not trade him before this years draft if he ever would)

for gagne and maybe an AHLer or something?

Sorry if you don't think that post was serious btw... that's just what I would give up for him... I don't know if i would add more because Foligno is playing REALLY well and is developing nicely in to a 3rd/2nd liner

It's too bad you can't take on cap though because I have a feeling anaheim would be willing to part ways with Giguere if they could get a Gagne type player
The Oilers could offer one of their pricier D like a Gilbert or even a Visnovsky, but see the problem there becomes Philly's cap situation.

They simply can't take on much salary, so yeah it's tough to figure out a deal.

I think you guys should think about Joffrey Lupul for Jonas Hiller straight across.

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04-08-2009, 08:51 PM
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lol yeah me neither... im garbage

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Old
04-08-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
The Oilers could offer one of their pricier D like a Gilbert or even a Visnovsky, but see the problem there becomes Philly's cap situation.

They simply can't take on much salary, so yeah it's tough to figure out a deal.

I think you guys should think about Joffrey Lupul for Jonas Hiller straight across.
Two problems

1. Hiller has destroyed Giguere this year and is the goalie for the playoffs and future. Check his career stats... UNBELIEVABLE

2. Anaheim already had Lupul and I don't think they can afford his contract.

Maybe Giguere +2nd + Marchant for Gagne and Lupul

Or something along those lines?

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04-08-2009, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coaster1330 View Post
Two problems

1. Hiller has destroyed Giguere this year and is the goalie for the playoffs and future. Check his career stats... UNBELIEVABLE

2. Anaheim already had Lupul and I don't think they can afford his contract.

Maybe Giguere +2nd + Marchant for Gagne and Lupul

Or something along those lines?
Overpayment from Philly. Giguere has been terrible.

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04-08-2009, 08:57 PM
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BillyShoe1721
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We're not going to be giving away two top 6 wingers without getting one back. If Gagne goes, it's going to be for a very good player.

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04-08-2009, 09:04 PM
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Cogliano + Gilbert + Schremp + EDM 2nd
for
Gagne + Philly 3rd in '10

Close?

I was gonna say something around Penner, as he's huge, and if any team can teach him to be mean, its Philly, his cycling instincts with Carter(I'm assuming) or Richards would be pretty good freaking line.

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Old
04-08-2009, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
We're not going to be giving away two top 6 wingers without getting one back. If Gagne goes, it's going to be for a very good player.
Fair enough. Unfortunately you have 0 cap space. The edmonton offer is really your only hope.

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04-08-2009, 09:16 PM
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Only hope for what? We don't have to trade anyone.
Yeah sorry, misunderstanding... I meant out of these trades and out of the trades I could see being offered on here, that would be your best option no doubt

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04-08-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by coaster1330 View Post
Fair enough. Unfortunately you have 0 cap space. The edmonton offer is really your only hope.
Only hope for what? We don't have to trade anyone.

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04-08-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster1330 View Post
Yeah sorry, misunderstanding... I meant out of these trades and out of the trades I could see being offered on here, that would be your best option no doubt
We could waive Randy Jones or trade him for a 4th or something and we'd be cap-compliant for next year (assuming JVR is a Phantom). If we want him and Sbisa up for the whole year and Mike Knuble back, we'd have to trade Lupul. I think that will happen by Draft Day anyway.

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04-08-2009, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schenn29 View Post
would it be too much, or even too little if the kings gave Boyle + LA 1st + simmonds

im not too familiar with simmonds or boyle but what ive seen from them they are decent prospects., simmonds has been up most of he year, boyle has bee nup and down and the 1st will be prolly 6-8
Too much from a Kings pov.

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04-09-2009, 12:40 AM
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Any offer for Gagne would have to include a 1st unless you are giving us a true elite blue chip prospect. If you are offering a top 5 pick then include a cheap 3rd line winger and that probably fair. If it's a 6-10 pick then you'll probably have to include one of your 3 best prospects too. If it's anything beyond the #10 pick in this years draft then you have better be including a prospect listed in the top 25 in HF's spring ratings. Anything less and the Flyers don't bite.


However, Gagne isn't going anywhere no matter what. Lupul, Jone and Carle (in that order) will be moved before Gagne is even considered. I guarrentee you that we try to find a buyer for Danny Briere before we move Gagne. Hell I'll go so far as to say that JVR will DEFINITELY be moved before Gagne is moved. You guys all say the Flyers are in cap hell and that's just not the case. Even if we can't/choose not to move any of Lupul, Jones, Carle, Brier or any others the worst case for us would be that we keep them all and just re-sign Nitty as our starting goalie for next year. We have the cap space to fit everyone in next year (JVR will have to play in the AHL becasue we won't have the cap space for him) and we won't have the money to sign a top notch goalie but honestly, who is going to be available this offseason that's so exciting in goal???

Unless the Flyers make a trade for a starting goalie this is all I'd do as the Flyers: Trade Lupul for a mid-late 1st or early 2nd this year and 3rd next year. Replace him on the roster with JVR. That will save about 1-1.5 mil in cap space. The trade Randy Jones for a late 2nd or early 3rd, that's about fair for him. Replace him with Sbisa next year and that saves the Flyers nearly and additional 2 mil. That gives us over 6 mil in cap space for 2 goalies with only changing one top 6 forward, one 3rd pairing dman, and the goalies. That certainly doesn't appear to be cap hell for the Flyers to me.

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Old
04-09-2009, 01:27 AM
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Uhh.... wow, if I were Philly and Anaheim somehow felt that Giguere was expendable, I'd be shipping Gagne off with fruit basket and a Thank You card.

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04-09-2009, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
Uhh.... wow, if I were Philly and Anaheim somehow felt that Giguere was expendable, I'd be shipping Gagne off with fruit basket and a Thank You card.

You do realize we could have had Luongo for Gagne straight up from Fla if we had wanted don't you and that was before Gagne put up 40 goals in a season and was an all-star. As it was Luongo was traded for Todd Bertuzzi who was having a miserable season and needed out of Vanc. FLA got less for Luongo than what you are proposing the Flyers give up for freak Giggy.

Last 2 year sfor Giggy - .922 sv%, 2.12 gga, .900 sv%, 3.13 gga
Last 2 years for Biron - .918 sv%, 2.59 gga, .915 sv%, 2.76 gga

Both are 31 years old. So you think it's a good idea to give up one of the best wingers in the game for a goalie that's arguably just marginably better than what we already have??? I love it when peopl speak for ignorance.

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04-09-2009, 01:58 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You do realize we could have had Luongo for Gagne straight up from Fla if we had wanted don't you and that was before Gagne put up 40 goals in a season and was an all-star. As it was Luongo was traded for Todd Bertuzzi who was having a miserable season and needed out of Vanc. FLA got less for Luongo than what you are proposing the Flyers give up for freak Giggy.

Last 2 year sfor Giggy - .922 sv%, 2.12 gga, .900 sv%, 3.13 gga
Last 2 years for Biron - .918 sv%, 2.59 gga, .915 sv%, 2.76 gga

Both are 31 years old. So you think it's a good idea to give up one of the best wingers in the game for a goalie that's arguably just marginably better than what we already have??? I love it when peopl speak for ignorance.
You're kidding, right?

A couple things:
1. You're a Philly fan, you tell me, hasn't playoff goaltending been one of the biggest concerns for the Flyers franchise for the past decade?
2. How does what Holmgren decided NOT to pay for Luongo have anything to do with whether or not dealing Gagne for a legitimate #1 goaltender is a good idea?

Giguere has won a Cup. He's proven to be a strong playoff performer. He's only 31, he's still got several good years ahead of him. I don't know why he's having a sub par season but I have to think that that's an aberration given his history. I know that Gagne has been the face of the franchise for the past several years and so it will be difficult to part with him, but seriously, you have guys that can fill the void.

Saying that he's a marginal upgrade from Biron or Nittymaki, to me, is absurd. You're free to disagree, but I'm speaking from an unbiased observer's point of view. In fact, believe you me, as a Kings fan the last thing I would like to do is give Giguere props. That's just my honest opinion having seen Giguere on a regular basis for the past seven years. No need to point out my "ignorance."


Last edited by ukyo: 04-09-2009 at 02:09 AM. Reason: I can't spell late at night.
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Old
04-09-2009, 02:19 AM
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phlocky
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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
You're kidding, right?

A couple things:
1. You're a Philly fan, you tell me, hasn't playoff goaltending been one of the biggest concerns for the Flyers franchise for the past decade?
2. How does what Holmgren decided NOT to pay for Luongo have anything to do with whether or not dealing Gagne for a legitimate #1 goaltender is a good idea?

Giguere has won a Cup. He's proven to be a strong playoff performer. He's only 31, he's still got several good years ahead of him. I don't know why he's having a sub par season but I have to think that that's an aberration given his history. I know that Gagne has been the face of the franchise for the past several years and so it will be difficult to part with him, but seriously, you have guys that can fill the void.

Saying that he's a marginal upgrade from Biron or Nittimaki, to me, is absurd. You're free to disagree, but I'm speaking from an unbiased observer's point of view. In fact, believe you me, as a Kings fan the last thing I would like to do is give Giguere props. That's just my honest opinion having seen Giguere on a regular basis for the past seven years. No need to point out my "ignorance."
Call it as you want but the truth is that Giggy CAREER numbers are only marginally better than Birons. I'm not making this crap up guys, he's about 0.05 sv% pts better and about 0.10 gga Better. In his only chance behind a good defensive tema Biron CARRIED the flyers past 2 teams that played better than them and whom we SHOULD have lost to (both the Caps and Habs diserved to beat us, Biron stole those series). Giggy one only 1 cup ant that was only when they assembled an awesome defense in front of him. How'd he do without Nieds for the first half of last year??? How's he doing this year. Take away his ONE cup year and he's done nothinkg that Biron hasn't done and that's played well enough to steal a few games in the playoffs but not enough to carry and under manned team to the cup. He's no more a goalie who can carry a team on his back any more than Biron is. He's 31 freaking years old and if he were ever going to be able to carry a team like that then he'd have done it by now.

My point was not to argue Biron over Giggy (given the 2 EVERYBODY would take Giggy) but if Luongo could ONLY get a player just coming off suspension and sprialing downward in an aweful season in Bertuzzi then why the hell would you or anyone in their right mind think that a goalie like giggy, who couldn't hold Luongo's jock strap, would be worth one of the best wings in the league, a player being considered for Team Canada's Olympic team AGAIN, who is a former allstar and is 10 times the player Bertuzzi was when he was traded for Luongo??? THAT'S the point, that Gagne is FAR FAR too much to pay for Giggy.

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04-09-2009, 02:47 AM
  #23
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Something along the lines of Gilbert for Gagne seems feasible to me. Gilbert is currently 18th in the league for points among D with 44, and tied for 8th (with Mike Green) for assists with 40.

While playing on the second pairing PP and only making $4,000,000 a year for the next 5.

And only in his second NHL season.

He certainly has a lot of work to put into his game... but again, he's top 20 in points, 10 in assists, and still only in his second pro season... and he only played a total of 48 games in the AHL.

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04-09-2009, 02:56 AM
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Something along the lines of Gilbert for Gagne seems feasible to me. Gilbert is currently 18th in the league for points among D with 44, and tied for 8th (with Mike Green) for assists with 40.

While playing on the second pairing PP and only making $4,000,000 a year for the next 5.

And only in his second NHL season.

He certainly has a lot of work to put into his game... but again, he's top 20 in points, 10 in assists, and still only in his second pro season... and he only played a total of 48 games in the AHL.

We don't need more dmen especially at the expense of our best winger. We have Timonen and Parent on our top pairing and Carle and Coburn on our 2nd pairing with Sbisa ready to join the team next year. The last thing we need is to spend another 4 mil on a dman and force one of our current top 4 down to the bottom pairing where we'd be paying way too much for him to be stuck on the bottom pairing (much like we have now with Randy Jones making 2.75 mil on the bottom pairing).

We basically have a player just like him in Matt Carle at about the same price. Carle's offensive numbers aren't as high as they could be because we've asked him to anchor the 2nd pairing and he's had to be very mindful for getting back and being defensively responsible at the expense of his offense because we NEED him to be able to cover for bad judgements of his partners (remember that Coburn is only in his 2nd full season this year).

For as many goals as the Flyers score we certainly don't ask our dmen to contribute very much, we DEMAND that they focus on defense. If you doubt that just look at how Kimmo Timonens numbers have dropped while playing on the Flyers. I guarrentee you that Gilberts numbers would be half of what they are with Edm if he were on the Flyers, it's just how they run our team.


Last edited by phlocky: 04-09-2009 at 03:02 AM.
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04-09-2009, 03:31 AM
  #25
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Call it as you want but the truth is that Giggy CAREER numbers are only marginally better than Birons. I'm not making this crap up guys, he's about 0.05 sv% pts better and about 0.10 gga Better. In his only chance behind a good defensive tema Biron CARRIED the flyers past 2 teams that played better than them and whom we SHOULD have lost to (both the Caps and Habs diserved to beat us, Biron stole those series). Giggy one only 1 cup ant that was only when they assembled an awesome defense in front of him. How'd he do without Nieds for the first half of last year??? How's he doing this year. Take away his ONE cup year and he's done nothinkg that Biron hasn't done and that's played well enough to steal a few games in the playoffs but not enough to carry and under manned team to the cup. He's no more a goalie who can carry a team on his back any more than Biron is. He's 31 freaking years old and if he were ever going to be able to carry a team like that then he'd have done it by now.

My point was not to argue Biron over Giggy (given the 2 EVERYBODY would take Giggy) but if Luongo could ONLY get a player just coming off suspension and sprialing downward in an aweful season in Bertuzzi then why the hell would you or anyone in their right mind think that a goalie like giggy, who couldn't hold Luongo's jock strap, would be worth one of the best wings in the league, a player being considered for Team Canada's Olympic team AGAIN, who is a former allstar and is 10 times the player Bertuzzi was when he was traded for Luongo??? THAT'S the point, that Gagne is FAR FAR too much to pay for Giggy.
You don't see a problem with using one of the worst trades in hockey history as a basis for what Giguere is worth? Do you think just because the Sharks landed Joe Thornton for Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart, and Wayne Primeau that you wouldn't pay more than Carle, Knuble, and Asham for Spezza or Lecavalier?

You don't want to argue about Biron vs. Giguere, fine. I think that acquiring a guy like Giguere even at the price of Gagne would put you guys over the top. You disagree, that is your prerogative. Again, I am speaking without any emotional attachment to either Gagne or Giguere and I really don't think you can say the same because to me you are clearly overvaluing your own players. And there's nothing wrong with that, I mean it would be like saying I don't think Kovalchuk is worth giving up Dustin Brown.

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