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Kubina to Ottawa

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Old
04-09-2009, 07:46 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
MVR is great. He just seems to have terrible luck being on the receiving end of some bad hits. What would you be willing to trade to get him. I think the leafs are gonna move at least one dman this year so any of the older ones could be had.
A 3rd + a B level prospect

Last year
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Nashville Predators traded Marek Zidlicky to the Minnesota Wild for Ryan Jones and a 2nd round selection in 2009.
And that was with him coming off a 43 point season.

The injury concerns with MVR, should put his value a bit lower then that.

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04-09-2009, 07:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
Leafs have zero interest in doing this. Fisher's contract is brutal.
Ya really! Im one to keep track of bad contracts, but I didnt even know about this. Makes Blake look like a hometown discount.

As to the OP, I think Ottawa fans should consider it. I mean he's a great player and if you miss the playoffs you dont have to give up a 1st until 2011. I know you guys wont be crazy about his contract ending after next season.

As a leafs fan? Im not sure about it. Kubina is great (although I have been all about trading both him and Kaberle in the past) and I seriously think that the leafs can legitemately make the playoffs next year. Burke will not sit around and do a slow re-build.

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Old
04-09-2009, 08:20 PM
  #28
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why does Ottawa want MVR?

he is made of glass and we already have a LOT of defensmen like him, Kubina is fine since he can hit and has a heavy shot

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04-09-2009, 08:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Feb 20, 2009: New York Islanders traded Mike Comrie and Chris Campoli to the Ottawa Senators for Dean McAmmond and a first-round draft pick in 2009.
i guess i should have said "unless we have more than one"

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04-09-2009, 08:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
why does Ottawa want MVR?

he is made of glass and we already have a LOT of defensmen like him, Kubina is fine since he can hit and has a heavy shot
I'd love to see Burke get something decent for Van Ryn and keep Kaberle but i doubt its possible. Van Ryn had ok stats and has a few fans( Mcguire really pimped him) but i wouldn't miss him. Too many injuries and questionable play in his own zone for my liking.

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Old
04-09-2009, 08:48 PM
  #31
Ricky Bobby
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There is no chance that Toronto even thinks about taking on the Fisher contract. Too much money for too many years for an injury prone player.

For those who are getting all wound up over the 1st Round Pick remember that it is a conditional first round pick that would realistically be in the 15-25 overall range and I strongly ecourage you to read this before posting: http://tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=267960

If the Leafs can't get a first rounder then the asking price starts is the Sens second rounder this year (approximately 40th overall) and another second rounder (either this year or in the future) plus Cody Bass & Jason Smith.

As for the salary cap in Ottawa it could be manageable because the team was under the salary cap this season and is losing the Jason Smith contract (2.6 million) resulting in only a 2.4 million extra cap hit with Kubina taking the spot of Smith on the roster.

Having said all this I still see a Kubina trade to either Buffalo, Colombus or Tampa Bay being the most likely scenario.

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Old
04-09-2009, 10:03 PM
  #32
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I think Kubina has played really well for the Leafs and he'd be a good fit on the Sens.

That being said, I do not want the Sens to trade a 1st round pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
just fyi for sens fans turning this down b/c they see a 1st rounder, you are aware its a first in 2010 right?? not this year??

Next years draft is not as deep as this year.

Don't overestimate picks.
The reason we haven't fallen into complete disrepair in over a decade is because we don't trade our first round picks the way the Leafs used to.

Don't underestimate picks, especially in a cap world.

Cheap labour is all important.

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Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
With all that said, ottawa lacks prospect depth
Our prospect depth is fine.

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Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
My one friend has some man-crush on J-Bo and is insistent they are going to get him this summer, and this trade would put a damper on his hopes and dreams.
You only have one friend?

For the record, we're not getting J-Bo.

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Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
I think this all depends on the long and short term plan of the sens, are they still trying to win? or in some sort of lame re-build mode.
Because we have decent talent in our organization, we don't have to opt for a complete rebuild.

Like most teams, the plan is to bring in new players to replace those players whose increasing contract demands make them expendable. (i.e. Meszaros)

Trying to win doesn't mean signing every aging veteran player and throwing picks aside left and right. Were Leetch, Francis, Housley, Wesley, Nolan, Gilmour etc. worth it?

There are too many variables to sacrifice your future for the present.


Last edited by NyQuil: 04-09-2009 at 10:20 PM.
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Old
04-09-2009, 10:16 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
For those who are getting all wound up over the 1st Round Pick remember that it is a conditional first round pick that would realistically be in the 15-25 overall range and I strongly ecourage you to read this before posting: http://tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=267960
I strongly encourage you to read this:

hhttp://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/...r00007328.html

Ottawa's record of drafting NHL talent in the first round is remarkably consistent.

An everyday NHL player on an entry-level contract is worth a great deal in a cap world.


Last edited by NyQuil: 04-09-2009 at 10:29 PM.
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Old
04-09-2009, 10:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I strongly encourage you to read this:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000054.html

Ottawa's record of drafting NHL talent in the first round is remarkably consistent.

An everyday NHL player on an entry-level contract is worth a great deal in a cap world.
Going back to 2002, your team's drafting isn't all that good outside of the first round. I can see why you want to hold onto your first round draft picks so much.

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04-09-2009, 10:29 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Going back to 2002, your team's drafting isn't all that good outside of the first round. I can see why you want to hold onto your first round draft picks so much.
Traditionally Ottawa used the 3rd and 4th lines to bring in their younger talent.

With the cap, low-cost veterans are more prevalent and Murray has kept those spots full with experienced guys.

It has created a log jam that I don't particularly agree with.

When injuries have occurred, Peter Regin, Cody Bass, Zack Smith and Ilya Zubov have all played pretty well.

In any case, Ottawa's 1st rounders typically become full-time NHL players and it's a bad habit to get rid of guys who can contribute at entry-level prices.

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Old
04-09-2009, 10:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
why does Ottawa want MVR?

he is made of glass and we already have a LOT of defensmen like him, Kubina is fine since he can hit and has a heavy shot
MVR has something our defense desperatly needs.

A bomb from the point. You see our opponents always collapse against us due to no point shot presence.

MVR brings that. We severely lack it.

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Old
04-09-2009, 11:26 PM
  #37
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i'm not interested in adding to our defence next season at this point. We allready have phillips, kuba, volchenkov, lee, campoli basically guaranteed spots. Then we also have smith, picard, schubert, bell (rfa), m. karlsson, and e. karlsson (though i think he'll be in sweden). Smith has been playing well under clouston (i know sens fans say this about everyone these days, but smith's turnaround has been one of the more noticeable ones after foligno's), and i dont think upgrading him to pavel kubina is worth a first round pick and our 'next' chris kelly.

if toronto wants to solve all our problems for us, i'll take kubina for smith, kelly, and a 2010 or 2011 first (if we dont make the playoffs in 2010, it's a 2011 pick) but short of that, i'm not interested.

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Old
04-10-2009, 12:39 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Going back to 2002, your team's drafting isn't all that good outside of the first round. I can see why you want to hold onto your first round draft picks so much.
That's when John Muckler took over and brought in his own scouting guys. One of them was released and went to the Habs, so enjoy drafting Russians that have no desire to play in North America (just kidding ).

It's one of the main reasons why Ottawa has had struggles lately. Most of our core players were acquired from solid draft years prior to Muckler taking over and he did not continue the trend of solid depth drafting. Eventually his poor depth caught up to the club and we weren't able to bring in any solid prospects to step up and contribute to the team. I've looked comparable drafting records between Murray and Muckler in later rounds and Murray has drafted about 1.9 players per year in later rounds while Muckler picked up .4-1.2 (depending on how some of his later draft prospects pan out).

I'd consider Muckler's poor drafting and how he handled the Chara-Redden, Gerber and Havlat situations as some of the reasons why he was let go.

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Old
04-10-2009, 02:47 AM
  #39
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kubina for a 1st , from any team, nothing less

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04-10-2009, 03:10 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i'm not interested in adding to our defence next season at this point. We allready have phillips, kuba, volchenkov, lee, campoli basically guaranteed spots. Then we also have smith, picard, schubert, bell (rfa), m. karlsson, and e. karlsson (though i think he'll be in sweden). Smith has been playing well under clouston (i know sens fans say this about everyone these days, but smith's turnaround has been one of the more noticeable ones after foligno's), and i dont think upgrading him to pavel kubina is worth a first round pick and our 'next' chris kelly.

if toronto wants to solve all our problems for us, i'll take kubina for smith, kelly, and a 2010 or 2011 first (if we dont make the playoffs in 2010, it's a 2011 pick) but short of that, i'm not interested.
Your proposal could be close but we'd definately have to remove the conditions on the pick.

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04-10-2009, 07:35 AM
  #41
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I'd like to see Kubina in a Sen's uniform but I doubt he gets traded in division.

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04-10-2009, 10:02 AM
  #42
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Oh yeah. Foligno for Kubs isn't enough to make Burke budge.Now if it were Kubina + one of our 2nds for Foligno and Sens 1st 09, then Burke would probably consider it. Kubina and Kaberle are not moving (almost 100% on this) unless a 1st or futures of roughly equal value are coming back to us.

If Burke did it i imagine he would trade Foligno and Ott 1st for a top-5 pick and maybe some scraps, effectively turning Kubina into one of the big 5.
Foligno isn't a piece that Ottawa is ready to move unless a true power forward comes back. Our defense is pretty much set for next year...for better or worse.

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04-10-2009, 10:51 AM
  #43
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We aren't in a position to be moving any more first round picks

COUNTER PROPOSAL

Ilya Zubov and CLB 2nd for Pavel Kubina


This is a very fair deal. Zubov is a very talented prospect who is stuck on a crowded roster, he would easily make the Leafs next year and be a valuable contributer. The Columbus 2nd will be around the 40th pick and you could still nab a good prospect at that position.

What do Leafs fans think? Basically you downgrade from a first (probably a late first) to a good prospect and a 2nd

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04-10-2009, 11:07 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
COUNTER PROPOSAL

Ilya Zubov and CLB 2nd for Pavel Kubina
Does this work under the cap for you guys? Personally, I wouldn't expect Zubov to crack the roster full-time for the Leafs next year, but that doesn't take anything away from him as a prospect.

From my point of view, I prefer more established players, so I'd pass. It's not a bad offer, just not quite what I'd be looking for in return.

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04-10-2009, 02:27 PM
  #45
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The Blue Jackets traded away their 2nd rounder this year to Ottawa in the Vermette deal and the pick will be more like a 45-50th overall pick seeing as they are in a playoff position.

I hope the Leafs could trade Kubina for Jake Hansen (RW) and then get another Hanson from somewhere and form a Hanson/Hansen line that could play good old time hockey!

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04-10-2009, 02:48 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
MVR is great. He just seems to have terrible luck being on the receiving end of some bad hits. What would you be willing to trade to get him. I think the leafs are gonna move at least one dman this year so any of the older ones could be had.
Foligno/2nd + 4th/3rd for MVR+5th?

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04-10-2009, 02:51 PM
  #47
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Foligno/2nd + 4th/3rd for MVR+5th?
Sounds about right. He's a good defenceman, and got caught with some unlucky injuries this year.

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04-10-2009, 03:50 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
The reason we haven't fallen into complete disrepair in over a decade is because we don't trade our first round picks the way the Leafs used to.

Don't underestimate picks, especially in a cap world.

Cheap labour is all important.
I was trying to say that you don't need first round picks given the cap scenario in the current NHL, i was simply trying to point out that a few sens fans were linking/equaling their pick for this years draft to next year draft. The pick next year is not going to be nearly as good as this years.

Also using pre-cap leaf moves as an example doesnt really mean anyhting. Pre-Cap first round picks really didnt mean much when u could simply buy the UFA market (baseball anyone?). Then again we still failed at winning it all, but the leafs were definitely competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Our prospect depth is fine.
Personally I am unaware of specifics for ottawas prospect scenario, but from reading other threads on this board it seems many sens fans had been referencing a lack of depth in the youth department. If this is not the case you need to take that up with your own fan base

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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
You only have one friend?

For the record, we're not getting J-Bo.
LOL, and yes I know your not going to be getting him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Because we have decent talent in our organization, we don't have to opt for a complete rebuild.

Like most teams, the plan is to bring in new players to replace those players whose increasing contract demands make them expendable. (i.e. Meszaros)

Trying to win doesn't mean signing every aging veteran player and throwing picks aside left and right. Were Leetch, Francis, Housley, Wesley, Nolan, Gilmour etc. worth it?

There are too many variables to sacrifice your future for the present.
I agree, completely sacrificing the future for the present is generally not a good idea.
And I also agree the sens do not need a complete rebuild, they have 3 top forwards
(who are really good) but are lacking in depth scoring and offensive d-men (somethings never change??).

Once again, comparing what the leafs did pre-cap proves nothing. The leafs war chest was able to put together consistently good teams (except for that small gap in the mid 90's, with happened there??). Because they had no real salary issues, they could deal first round picks for top end players (they didn't need the cheap young players when they could afford top-end veterans). At that time there was no downside to trade firsts away, unless you can predict the future that is. And yes Gilmour was worth it a first:a spectacular playoff run and amazing player for a first is a fair trade imo, not to mention how he became a leaf icon.

The leafs pick transactions in the pre-cap NHL were terrible moves in retrospect, however at the time it seemed like the right move. And considering you can't predict the future, i don't see how this proves anything. And I WAS NOT suggesting that the sens should follow this pattern, nearly hinting at the fact that all options must be considered, trading 1 first away in a poor draft is not the end of the world, like some ppl make it out to be.

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Old
04-10-2009, 03:51 PM
  #49
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Feb 20, 2009: New York Islanders traded Mike Comrie and Chris Campoli to the Ottawa Senators for Dean McAmmond and a first-round draft pick in 2009.

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Old
04-10-2009, 04:02 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
We aren't in a position to be moving any more first round picks

COUNTER PROPOSAL

Ilya Zubov and CLB 2nd for Pavel Kubina


This is a very fair deal. Zubov is a very talented prospect who is stuck on a crowded roster, he would easily make the Leafs next year and be a valuable contributer. The Columbus 2nd will be around the 40th pick and you could still nab a good prospect at that position.

What do Leafs fans think? Basically you downgrade from a first (probably a late first) to a good prospect and a 2nd

I would do this. I don't think Kubina returns as much as we think this year.

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