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Can Brian Burke do it?

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Old
04-10-2009, 10:26 AM
  #76
embracedbias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Again.
I college ufa is taking up the team's cap space,as if he were the #1 pick of the draft and you don't see that as overpaying,tying up that much cap space in a college ufa?
1) $875,000 doesn't tie up a lot of cap space. If he sucks he'll be on the marlies and won't tie up ANY cap space.

2) You are assuming that the cap space is tied up because Burke has to keep room for the bonus' just in case he reaches them. These aren't long term bonus', however, and the Leafs will have plenty of cap space next season to accomodate $4 mill on the off chance that he reaches his bonus'. As such, it is a non-issue.

3) Too much cap space is NOT being tied up with Bozak. It is quite clear. Try as you might, you can't spin this to be a bad move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Once again.I don't have a problem with Burke throwing whatever amount he wants to at college ufas or nhl ufas.For the last time, I simply don't agree that being able to spend to the cap ceiling,having cap space and wildly outbidding other teams somehow makes Burke an amazing or genuis.

and that was the OP's line..isn't Burke amazing?Why because he outbid other teams?
How do you know that he wildly outbid the other teams? You see the bonus and you seem to get all excited and assume no one else would have tabled a similar offer. You really don't have much reason to believe this. The fact that you say "wildly" outbid when you have no clue makes me question you.

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04-10-2009, 10:42 AM
  #77
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Quote:
2) You are assuming that the cap space is tied up because Burke has to keep room for the bonus' just in case he reaches them. These aren't long term bonus', however, and the Leafs will have plenty of cap space next season to accomodate $4 mill on the off chance that he reaches his bonus'. As such, it is a non-issue.
Let's keep this short.

I get those points.Do you get my point, that other teams are very unlikely to have been willing to give $3m in potential bonuses?The leafs were willing.Fine.But outbidding other gms doesn't make this impressive.That is my point.


Quote:
3) Too much cap space is NOT being tied up with Bozak. It is quite clear. Try as you might, you can't spin this to be a bad move.
I didn't say it was bad move.I made the points that I didn't see a reason for the OP's Burkegushing and I doubted other teams, were willing to offer so much bonus money to a college ufa.

Quote:
How do you know that he wildly outbid the other teams? You see the bonus and you seem to get all excited and assume no one else would have tabled a similar offer. You really don't have much reason to believe this. The fact that you say "wildly" outbid when you have no clue makes me question you
From reading comments from a scout,who called this type of money crazy.

You'll find that I have never once, posted that I wished my team could get Bozak.So calling my response excited is a bit of a stretch.I don't care how much Burke shells out to college ufas or nhl ufas.

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04-10-2009, 10:50 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
From reading comments from a scout,who called this type of money crazy.
That was about Gilroy, who wants guaranteed money. That's completely different from Bozak, who is getting a bonus, conditional on performance. There's basically zero risk in giving bonuses, I don't understand the problem you have with this. Every team would have offered a similar contract.

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04-10-2009, 10:59 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong,but doesn't bonus money count towards a team's cap?

And whether the kid can reach those bonuses doesn't change the fact, that few other teams would have the cap space or team budget to toss that kind of offer on the table.
It's my understanding that with the NHLPA agreeing not to re-open the CBA early, teams are allowed, if they chose, to "defer" any bonuses that exceed the cap to the following year. They are allowed to during the year exceed the cap by the bonuses, which wasn't the case this year. Of course - with the cap potentially falling, you'd really want to avoid pushing salary from 2009-10 to 2010-11.

How likely is it that he's going to reach the B bonuses? Top 5 in Richard, Hart, Conn Smythe or Selke voting? Really? That's the thing to me. If he plays great (20+g, 60+ points), he'll get the type A bonuses probably make about $1.8M next year. And if he's not NHL ready, he's making $70K playing for the Marlies. Good move IMO for the Leafs IMO.

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Old
04-10-2009, 10:59 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
That was about Gilroy, who wants guaranteed money. That's completely different from Bozak, who is getting a bonus, conditional on performance. There's basically zero risk in giving bonuses, I don't understand the problem you have with this. Every team would have offered a similar contract.
Like who? If the bonuses indeed count towards the cap then that takes out every team even remotely close to the cap.

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04-10-2009, 11:00 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
It's my understanding that with the NHLPA agreeing not to re-open the CBA early, teams are allowed, if they chose, to "defer" any bonuses that exceed the cap to the following year. They are allowed to during the year exceed the cap by the bonuses, which wasn't the case this year. Of course - with the cap potentially falling, you'd really want to avoid pushing salary from 2009-10 to 2010-11.

How likely is it that he's going to reach the B bonuses? Top 5 in Richard, Hart, Conn Smythe or Selke voting? Really? That's the thing to me. If he plays great (20+g, 60+ points), he'll get the type A bonuses probably make about $1.8M next year. And if he's not NHL ready, he's making $70K playing for the Marlies. Good move IMO for the Leafs IMO.
I think Irish Blue said this wasn't the case, but I could be wrong.

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04-10-2009, 11:10 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Let's keep this short.

I get those points.Do you get my point, that other teams are very unlikely to have been willing to give $3m in potential bonuses?The leafs were willing.Fine.But outbidding other gms doesn't make this impressive.That is my point.
No, because I don't find it unlikely.

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Old
04-10-2009, 11:11 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
I think Irish Blue said this wasn't the case, but I could be wrong.
No, I remember that thread. It was sort of unclear what he'd said, but the general idea is that bonuses count against the cap until they aren't met but teams are now allowed to go over the cap by an amount equal to their total rookie bonuses that could potentially paid out. This is the bonus cushion. It has the net effect of making bonuses not count against the cap unless they are met.

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04-10-2009, 11:25 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
No, I remember that thread. It was sort of unclear what he'd said, but the general idea is that bonuses count against the cap until they aren't met but teams are now allowed to go over the cap by an amount equal to their total rookie bonuses that could potentially paid out. This is the bonus cushion. It has the net effect of making bonuses not count against the cap unless they are met.
Ya I was confused because IB didn't simply talk about the "net effect" of the bonuses, but that they count against the cap until they can no longer be obtained. I think the net effect is all we should care about anyways, so you're right. As long as a team can still sign free agents even with Bozak's cap hit, its all good.

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Old
04-10-2009, 12:20 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
He's done an amazing job putting together a NCAA team.


I guess the original poster hasn't looked at the track records of NCAA free agent signings.

Leaf fans are notorious for over-rating their every move, but this is getting ridiculous. If this is the big plan for the rebuild ... yikes.

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Old
04-10-2009, 12:24 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
The $4M is a total flipping joke, and I can't believe that TSN didn't explain that more.

For him to get $2M in type B bonus's, he's got to be top 5 in voting for a major award (Richard, Hart, Conn Smythe or Selke next year). How likely is that?
Calder?

If it's unlikely that he'll be top 5 in voting for the Calder, competing mainly against teenagers five years younger then him, then explain to me how he's worth even remotely that much money?

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04-10-2009, 12:24 PM
  #87
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Reading through this thread I have come to this conclusion.

Burke lovers think he is doing a great job.

Burke haters think he is doing a lousy job.

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04-10-2009, 12:28 PM
  #88
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I don't agree with the argument that other teams were not offering him large bonuses along with his entry level contract. The other teams in contention for him were the Habs, Avs, Sens? Which of those teams have any sort of money problems? I mean there not money generating machine's like the leafs (the fact that TO in 12th place rebuilding team may have higher revenue than the habs centennial season is kinda baffling). Each of these teams would have (imo) offered similar bonuses, however I think the major diff would have to be ice time.

Then again. I don't see this as some amazing genius move. Low risk high reward investments are always worthy (except gilroy is high risk). These are only entry level contracts with bonuses which probably won't be paid, meaning they wont count against the cap in the long run. IF they are paid, then the kid is the next super-god leaf icon. Burke is simply taking advantage of his strengths: a terrible team with stupid amounts of money. IF he didn't follow through and use these to his advantage to attract young talent, then I would be calling him an idiot. He has been aggressively pursuing a young asset base for this team to move forward. He is not a genius, but he is making the right moves none the less.

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Old
04-10-2009, 12:31 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Millers Chin View Post
Brian Burke has been an absolutely amazing GM so far.
The day you start believing in your own publicity, you lose.

Leafs, show humility. Brian Burke isn't a genius for having signed two NCAA prospects, he'll be a genius when these players show they can make it in the NHL.

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Old
04-10-2009, 12:33 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
No, because I don't find it unlikely.
Well we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

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04-10-2009, 12:33 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post

Jealousy, that's the only explanation that I see for the willful ignorance.
Yes, you nailed it.

So many fanbases around the league are incredibly jealous of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

The legacy of losing in Toronto, of course, is the main thing. Not many teams can string together five years of losing and missing the playoffs while still bleeding draft picks and assembling a farm team bereft of any real prospects.

Who wouldn't be jealous of that?

Who wouldn't be jealous of a team that hasn't sniffed the Stanley Cup Final since the original six days. Of course you'd be the envy of the league.

What reasonable fan wouldn't be jealous of the amazing crop of talent that Toronto has - guys like Hanson - who no Leaf fan even knew existed two weeks ago but now they are trumpeting as a future star. Who wouldn't envy a club clever enough to deal players like Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft? Who wouldn't be jealous of a club clever enough to secure talent like Mark Bell, Jamal Mayers and Brad May in trades when all it cost was draft picks. (Who needs picks anyway?) A crafty club that can convert Carlo Coliaccovo and Alex Steen into Lee Stempniak will clearly have to deal with other clubs in the league simply being envious of all of that genius being concentrated in Toronto.

You sir, nailed it.

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04-10-2009, 12:35 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
Blake Wheeler
You mean the guy that was drafted fifth overall in the 2004 draft?

Are you really dim enough to think that is a comparison to the guys the Leafs signed?

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04-10-2009, 12:37 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post

I don't agree with the argument that other teams were not offering him large bonuses along with his entry level contract. The other teams in contention for him were the Habs, Avs, Sens? Which of those teams have any sort of money problems? I mean there not money generating machine's like the leafs (the fact that TO in 12th place rebuilding team may have higher revenue than the habs centennial season is kinda baffling). Each of these teams would have (imo) offered similar bonuses, however I think the major diff would have to be ice time.

.

A key reason the Sens targeted Campoli was because of his team friendly $650,000 salary.You really think they were offering a college ufa $3m in bonuses?

The Habs are rumored to be hoping LaCavaliar and his 11 yr,$88m contract becomes available this summer,before his ntc kicks in.They also want to re-sign impending ufa Komi.

I read all 6 Canadian teams were in the mix.Think Vancouver with the Sedins about to become ufas offered $3m in bonuses?

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04-10-2009, 01:12 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
A key reason the Sens targeted Campoli was because of his team friendly $650,000 salary.You really think they were offering a college ufa $3m in bonuses?

The Habs are rumored to be hoping LaCavaliar and his 11 yr,$88m contract becomes available this summer,before his ntc kicks in.They also want to re-sign impending ufa Komi.

I read all 6 Canadian teams were in the mix.Think Vancouver with the Sedins about to become ufas offered $3m in bonuses?
How is Bozak any different than Fabian Brunstrom? Detroit, Vancouver and others were very heavily after him, and his contract and bonuses counted against the cap this year.

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04-10-2009, 01:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You mean the guy that was drafted fifth overall in the 2004 draft?

Are you really dim enough to think that is a comparison to the guys the Leafs signed?
You've consistently missed the point in every post so far. Congratulations. Now go back and read that again.

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04-10-2009, 01:34 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
How is Bozak any different than Fabian Brunstrom? Detroit, Vancouver and others were very heavily after him, and his contract and bonuses counted against the cap this year.
C'mon.Please read this slowly.I'm not arguing whether these players will become stars or reach their ceilings.I'm not arguing whether it was money well spent.


The OP posted that Burke was an amazing gm for this signing(along with the Hanson signing).I posted that imo, the $3m in bonuses had a lot to do with getting Bozak signed and that outbidding other teams didn't make Burke amazing or a genuis.


We've argued this back and forth.Enough.If Leaf fans are happy with the signings,that's good for them.

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04-10-2009, 01:34 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
A key reason the Sens targeted Campoli was because of his team friendly $650,000 salary.You really think they were offering a college ufa $3m in bonuses?

The Habs are rumored to be hoping LaCavaliar and his 11 yr,$88m contract becomes available this summer,before his ntc kicks in.They also want to re-sign impending ufa Komi.

I read all 6 Canadian teams were in the mix.Think Vancouver with the Sedins about to become ufas offered $3m in bonuses?
I'm not sure we're on the same page here. It's a standard contract. The bonuses aren't paid unless he produces. This means that offering Bozak bonus money would have no bearing on signing other players on the team, unless he produces at a clip that makes him worth those bonuses.

So, if all bonuses are equal, he'd go to the team that give shim the best opportunity of success. Toronto has a weak roster, and were probably the team most likely to give him a top six role next year. A top six role gives him a better chance at scoring enough points to hit those bonuses, and to get a better contract next time around.

This is exactly what Burke said about Bozak's reasons for signing at the press conference. There was no bidding war for his services.

Edit: But I agree that getting Bozak signed doesn't make Burke a genius. The kid took advantage of an opportunity, and thinks that Toronto is a good place to play. All Burke did was facilitate that decision, it wasn't exactly a difficult thing to do. We'll call him a good salesman for now.

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04-10-2009, 01:42 PM
  #98
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Plain and simple fact is that Burke has so far signed the top two College free agents available and he is in the running for arguably the biggest. I agree that the Bozak signing is bigger money then most expected, but listening to rival scouts Tyler has been nothing but praised and is ecxpected to fill either the first or second line center position. The Maple Leafs will eventually be very similar to the NY Yankees in regards to the money situation and signing players to lucrative , big money deals. People should all be prepared for Burke to completely change this team around, and with power, and now with unlimited funds behind him expect a lot of free agents to land in Toronto.

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04-10-2009, 01:50 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
How is Bozak any different than Fabian Brunstrom? Detroit, Vancouver and others were very heavily after him, and his contract and bonuses counted against the cap this year.
Vancouver had $10+ million in cap space at the time; and who is to say Detroit would've offered him the same contract/bonuses (doubt it considering their cap situation at the time)?

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04-10-2009, 05:51 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Yes, you nailed it.

So many fanbases around the league are incredibly jealous of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

The legacy of losing in Toronto, of course, is the main thing. Not many teams can string together five years of losing and missing the playoffs while still bleeding draft picks and assembling a farm team bereft of any real prospects.

Who wouldn't be jealous of that?

Who wouldn't be jealous of a team that hasn't sniffed the Stanley Cup Final since the original six days. Of course you'd be the envy of the league.

What reasonable fan wouldn't be jealous of the amazing crop of talent that Toronto has - guys like Hanson - who no Leaf fan even knew existed two weeks ago but now they are trumpeting as a future star. Who wouldn't envy a club clever enough to deal players like Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft? Who wouldn't be jealous of a club clever enough to secure talent like Mark Bell, Jamal Mayers and Brad May in trades when all it cost was draft picks. (Who needs picks anyway?) A crafty club that can convert Carlo Coliaccovo and Alex Steen into Lee Stempniak will clearly have to deal with other clubs in the league simply being envious of all of that genius being concentrated in Toronto.

You sir, nailed it.
After all of this and you missed the point.

I meant jealous about the particular signings... not the future of the team. (you'll also notice the the guy who I was directing the comment towards is an Islander fan..).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You mean the guy that was drafted fifth overall in the 2004 draft?

Are you really dim enough to think that is a comparison to the guys the Leafs signed?
Do yourself a favor. Look up their relative performance in the NCAA.

Quote:
“I have no doubts about this guy, none whatsoever,” one scout said. “It’s a hell of a signing by the Toronto Maple Leafs.”
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...of-Gilroy.html

Who's dim?

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