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Old
04-11-2009, 04:42 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by emb24 View Post
i wonder if anyone on here actually seriously considers the alternative. a bob gainey who at times, this year, seems like he's making it up on the fly...and a potentially unstable ownership situation --add in the taxes, the media, the language...

and the alternative to not signing our vets (as most of our youth core has regressed) is a NIGHTMARE

and then throw in the youth core..the pleks, komi, higgins--all ufa's or rfa's.

sorry i don't like this
Come on....you act like everyone will walk away this summer....the FAs that don't come back will be replaced with other FAs and some by the young guys on our team. No, we won't see the Montreal Bulldogs next year, get real.

In Bob we trust (or anyone else that replaces him..)

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04-11-2009, 04:45 PM
  #27
sXe
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Originally Posted by Cupmonger View Post
We don't have any 30 goal scorers
Kovalev has more 30 goals seasons than Franzen.

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04-11-2009, 04:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by sXe View Post
Kovalev has more 30 goals seasons than Franzen.
Touche!
But still, you kind of agree we could need more 20+ goal scorers at least. I think BG will do the right think.

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04-11-2009, 04:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by emb24 View Post

1) a player has played his entire career for a team and feels a deep sense of loyalty
2) refer to 1 + player believes this team gives him best chance of winning
3) longer length instead of less money
4) player trying to rehabilitate his career
What about Alex Burrows with Vancouver? I know Vancouver is playing well but they aren't Detroit.

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Old
04-11-2009, 04:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Komi4Vezina View Post
Come on....you act like everyone will walk away this summer....the FAs that don't come back will be replaced with other FAs and some by the young guys on our team. No, we won't see the Montreal Bulldogs next year, get real.

In Bob we trust (or anyone else that replaces him..)
so the assumption should be that they're all coming back? or that all the key parts want to come back? how is your assumption any more logical than mine? i love gainey, and trust him, but what i have witnessed this year freaks me out.

first off i never said this will be the bulldogs, but 90% of our young cornerstones have regressed this year. so you're comfortable going in next year with maybe our best line, save maybe koivu, gone?

and really our only shot blocking tough dman gone? which players that get a sniff of leaving (if they are not signed in their ufa year)...actually stay? i'd love to have the numbers. i'd say it's not very high. (which means :he should've taken care of the guys already here)

and lastly your belief that suddenly ufa's - quality ufa's will suddenly sign here, when we all know that the premium talent that will need to be replaced will require premium dollars ..meaning overpayment because no non hab ufas will come here as discounts in their prime. not going to happen.

so gainey can play this whole 'play for your contract, show us you want to be here and we'll recompense you'

but the fact is, most athletes are counseled to walk when given the chance, to chase the dollars and avoid the taxes...and frankly go somewhere they can win.

bob should have identified the guys he wanted back early on and signed them...and burned this in season non-negotiation policy. it's DUMB

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04-11-2009, 04:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
What about Alex Burrows with Vancouver? I know Vancouver is playing well but they aren't Detroit.
there are exceptions. i mentioned generally

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04-11-2009, 04:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Noticed the Red Wings locked up Franzen today and some people think he gave the Wings a home town discount. Anyways if a player like Franzen who really played great this year took a hit for his team who out of our 11 FA's should take a hit? and when was the last time a Montreal player gave the team a hometown discount? You see teams like Vancouver and Detroit getting them on a silver platter but I don't see our own home grown talent even thinking about it.

Personally I think Kovalev and Koivu need to be hitting the discount line. Kovalev because of inconsistency and Koivu because his age looks like it is catching up to him, Tanguay might also take a small discount. Schneider definitly just because of age and his last contract was bloated in the first place. Kosto deserves a raise and Komi will get a raise reguardless of his atrocious play this year. Tanguay might also take a small discount.

After those six I could see the rest being let go and replaced by rookies, maybe one of Boullion or Dandy gets a small contract.

Tanguay
Koivu
Kovalev
Kostopolous
Boullion
Dandenault
Komisarek
Schneider
Brisebois

And Janik, Henry, Denis
Your missing one important part of the equation...

the Red Wings are an organization that has shown a distinct ability to be a contender for the better part of the last ~15 years.
Players give them a "hometown discount" not because Detroit is such a wonderful place to live, or because they have some sort of personal attachment to the state of Michigan, they sign up there for less than they can get elsewhere because they KNOW they have a chance to win. We seem to forget sometimes that, european or canadian, these guys are all elite athletes, and what drives most of them, in a way much deeper than the money, is their competitive nature.

the habs, again this season, as an organization, have shown an inability to get it right... blame the media, the coaching, the centennial pressure... whatever you want, but bottom line is we squeaked into the playoffs once again, making last years step forward seem like more of an exception than a sign of stability.

add the taxes, the media, the language issues, and why would any player want to give this franchise a "hometown discount"? You and I may be willing to give our left nut to play 1 game for the habs, but the bulk of these guys don't have the same loyalty to the franchise, nor would I expect them to after 10+ years of mediocrity.

my thoughts of the guys you listed:

Tanguay: unless he gets a very strong offer from Gainey prior to UFAgency, he'll test the waters and if Sedins/Gaborik/Hossa are already gone, he'll get an offer we can't/shouldn't match

Koivu: Just about the only guy I'd think would bite at taking less to stay, but if Minny loses Gaborik, look for them to make him an offer he can't turn down.

Kovalev: Hard to read, I think he likes playing in a city where hockey matters, relationship with Gainey might be enough to get him to stay, doubt he takes less than he could get elsewhere

Kostopolous: Won't be getting huge offers from anyone, should be easy enough to resign, maybe for 2-300k less than somewhere else

Boullion: might accept less, but don't see much room/use for him next year

Dandenault: see above, slightly more useful than Bouillion, but I'd rather have chipchura taking his minutes

Komisarek: Same as Tanguay, NYI will come calling, and have the cap space to win a bidding war

Schneider: After stops in Ahn/Atl, maybe he wants to finish his career in a hockey town, that said, he might also prefer playing for a contender (history with Detroit), doubt he takes less to stay here.

Brisebois: Can't see how or why we'd make him any kind of offer unless it's a coaching job in Hamilton

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04-11-2009, 04:58 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by sXe View Post
Kovalev has more 30 goals seasons than Franzen.
Franzen hasn't entered his prime yet.

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Old
04-11-2009, 05:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by emb24 View Post
so the assumption should be that they're all coming back? or that all the key parts want to come back? how is your assumption any more logical than mine? i love gainey, and trust him, but what i have witnessed this year freaks me out.

first off i never said this will be the bulldogs, but 90% of our young cornerstones have regressed this year. so you're comfortable going in next year with maybe our best line, save maybe koivu, gone?

and really our only shot blocking tough dman gone? which players that get a sniff of leaving (if they are not signed in their ufa year)...actually stay? i'd love to have the numbers. i'd say it's not very high. (which means :he should've taken care of the guys already here)

and lastly your belief that suddenly ufa's - quality ufa's will suddenly sign here, when we all know that the premium talent that will need to be replaced will require premium dollars ..meaning overpayment because no non hab ufas will come here as discounts in their prime. not going to happen.

so gainey can play this whole 'play for your contract, show us you want to be here and we'll recompense you'

but the fact is, most athletes are counseled to walk when given the chance, to chase the dollars and avoid the taxes...and frankly go somewhere they can win.

bob should have identified the guys he wanted back early on and signed them...and burned this in season non-negotiation policy. it's DUMB
Why do you assume Tanguay will not be back ? He had a NTC with the Flames and he accepted to waive it so he could come here. Gainey will just not let him walk, and why would Tanguay refuse ? Yes I would be confident with a 1st line Tanguay-Koivu-Pacioretty/AKost.

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Old
04-11-2009, 05:09 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
What about Alex Burrows with Vancouver? I know Vancouver is playing well but they aren't Detroit.
Burrows is sort of what we should have managed to have with Streit last year.

A relatively young guy having a breakout season leading into his first UFA, re-signed DURING that season, to a multi year at a price well above the contract he was on, but lower than what he'd get in the offseason.

Much like Streit's desire to re-sign during the season, I think Burrows made a decision based more on his heart than on his head.

He's finally playing at a level he believed he had in him, but since it took a while he's somewhat convinced/doubtful that at least part of his success/confidence has to do with the situation he's in... his comfort level with his teammates, the coach, the city... all of which gives him the gut(heart) feeling that he should get his contract done, so that he can just focus on riding the wave and settle in for the 'long-haul'.

I'm sure Burrows agent at the very least suggested that his client should wait it out, that he would be in line for a bigger payday if he waited till July.


That kind of situation happens when a player is playing above his past level of play...
this year Lapierre might be a good candidate for it, but since he's only an RFA in 2 years, there isn't the same need (from our pov) to sign him long term right now.

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Old
04-11-2009, 05:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Komi4Vezina View Post
Why do you assume Tanguay will not be back ? He had a NTC with the Flames and he accepted to waive it so he could come here. Gainey will just not let him walk, and why would Tanguay refuse ? Yes I would be confident with a 1st line Tanguay-Koivu-Pacioretty/AKost.
We don't know how many other teams were willing to pony up a 1st round pick to the flames for him coming off the disappointing season he had in Calgary, so it's not like there is any evidence that he refused trades elsewhere to come to Montreal.

Tanguay wanted out of Calgary last season, period. Given the success Montreal had last year, especially offensively, it's not really surprising that he'd have been happy to leave the Flames and their team philosophy to come here.

Unfortunately we took a step backward this season, and given the circus of negativity that has surrounded the team in 2009, his age, and the crop of offensively talented UFA's available, it certainly not a stretch to think he'd be interested in testing the market to see what kind of contract is out there for him.

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Old
04-11-2009, 05:14 PM
  #37
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Your missing one important part of the equation...

the Red Wings are an organization that has shown a distinct ability to be a contender for the better part of the last ~15 years.
Players give them a "hometown discount" not because Detroit is such a wonderful place to live, or because they have some sort of personal attachment to the state of Michigan, they sign up there for less than they can get elsewhere because they KNOW they have a chance to win. We seem to forget sometimes that, european or canadian, these guys are all elite athletes, and what drives most of them, in a way much deeper than the money, is their competitive nature.

the habs, again this season, as an organization, have shown an inability to get it right... blame the media, the coaching, the centennial pressure... whatever you want, but bottom line is we squeaked into the playoffs once again, making last years step forward seem like more of an exception than a sign of stability.

add the taxes, the media, the language issues, and why would any player want to give this franchise a "hometown discount"? You and I may be willing to give our left nut to play 1 game for the habs, but the bulk of these guys don't have the same loyalty to the franchise, nor would I expect them to after 10+ years of mediocrity.

I understand Detroit but I also had Vancouver in there. Hell there are quite a few teams that get hometown discounts and Montreal never even seems to get considered. I dunno but next season we better be getting atleast two or several of these old codgers can hit the road.

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Old
04-11-2009, 05:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Komi4Vezina View Post
Why do you assume Tanguay will not be back ? He had a NTC with the Flames and he accepted to waive it so he could come here. Gainey will just not let him walk, and why would Tanguay refuse ? Yes I would be confident with a 1st line Tanguay-Koivu-Pacioretty/AKost.
unfortunately gainey's 'patience' has also been a detriment.

for every markov there's a streit and souray. so i'm not confident he can get them all signed...i have to assume because well, their names are not on the dotted line

and he won't find equal replacements AND he will have to overpay for those too - more than he would've had to pony up if he just threw his stupid policy out the window

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04-11-2009, 05:30 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by emb24 View Post
unfortunately gainey's 'patience' has also been a detriment.

for every markov there's a streit and souray. so i'm not confident he can get them all signed...i have to assume because well, their names are not on the dotted line

and he won't find equal replacements AND he will have to overpay for those too - more than he would've had to pony up if he just threw his stupid policy out the window
I agree with you that he should get rid of his policy, I hate it as much as you, but I don't think we're that much into trouble, maybe I'm too optimistic, but I feel he'll be able to sign most of the important names without overpaying too much.

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04-11-2009, 05:31 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Komi4Vezina View Post
I agree with you that he should get rid of his policy, I hate it as much as you, but I don't think we're that much into trouble, maybe I'm too optimistic, but I feel he'll be able to sign most of the important names without overpaying too much.
i hope you're right

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