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Old
04-26-2009, 01:14 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I think you and I have different ideas about what we want for the Coyotes... Carcillo started off with a suspension and finished with an ill-advised fight.

I don't know if you believe in The Code or not (I'm not a believer per se but I know it exists), but Maxime Talbot is one of those character fourth-liners who is all heart and very little else - a good "room guy" - and his provocation of Carcillo was 100% deliberate and calculated. He knew he'd get massacred but he also knew that the Pens were playing lethargic and needed something to galvanize them. Carcillo going off the ice with his finger-guns pointing was to be expected. Talbot going off "shushing" the crowd was not - that's the kind of thing that fires up a team.

At any rate, Talbot knew that the Flyers had the game in control, so he went out and targeted the Flyer who is most consistently OUT of control. And while he lost the battle, he won the war. That's smart hockey.

I won't say Danny Carcillo has come close to the moron-level play exhibited by Sean Avery in the playoffs, but nothing at all I saw from the Flyers makes me sad one iota that we traded Carcillo. And I have to think the Pens were kinda glad THEY traded him too. If you believe in black helicopters, you might even say that Carcillo ended up being a sleeper agent for Pittsburgh...
When you're down in a series 3-2, in contol of the game 3-0, and at home, throwing down for no reason rises to Avery-level moronic to me.

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04-26-2009, 05:45 PM
  #52
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I was watching the Rangers/Caps game today, and there was something about the Rangers and the way they were playing that felt awfully familiar.

When I realized what it was, I started hoping we DON'T resign Derek Morris in the offseason.

But I realize that I might be alone in that sentiment.

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04-26-2009, 05:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I was watching the Rangers/Caps game today, and there was something about the Rangers and the way they were playing that felt awfully familiar.

When I realized what it was, I started hoping we DON'T resign Derek Morris in the offseason.

But I realize that I might be alone in that sentiment.
no your not, felt the same way. although the entire defensive core fell apart in the last 2 games.

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04-26-2009, 09:18 PM
  #54
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To be honest, I don't think the Rangers are a particularly good team. They might have the talent, but not the work ethic, and while I want Morris to do well, it's hard to root for a team that rides their goalie to success the way they do with Lundquist. Give me a well-balanced team with depth over a team with a handful of stars any day.

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I think you and I have different ideas about what we want for the Coyotes...
First, I want to make it clear that I love Upshall. Great player, great attitude, great effort. I also like that he's a little bit older but still young, and I like that he's spent formative years with a very successful and competitive team. Meanwhile, while I also love Carcillo, I'm not at all convinced that we could've gotten him playing the way he's played recently on a consistent basis. I don't think our coaching is particularly good, and we've got too many young guys to train to devote substantial amounts of time to any one difficult-to-develop player. So I think the trade was probably a very good idea.

I do agree though that we probably don't share the same opinions on the value of a player like Carcillo to a team that can get him under control. Heck, we probably disagree on whether or not he can learn to behave himself at all. I think enforcers and agitators bring a lot to a team, but unfortunately many/most of them suck, and the ones who don't (Avery, Pronger, etc.) frequently play on the edge. Carcillo fits into the latter category, but at least when he crosses the line, it's usually from running his mouth and swearing a lot as opposed to thrusting his stick into someone's throat. A big mouth in a young player is a habit that can be broken, and I don't fear that he's going to hurt anyone in the meantime. Meanwhile, in the playoffs, he managed to make a big impact with limited ice time. He established a presence in 6-8 minutes a night, which is no small feat. He scored when Fleury was standing on his head, he got an assist on a game-winning goal, he was hitting, and he was keeping the puck in the offensive zone. Carcillo's line (the fourth line), really contributed to most of Philadelphia's games this playoffs, and he set up several of their more impressive plays. He also hasn't reached his ceiling yet skillwise, IMO. I think that in this case, the benefits outweigh the costs, although I understand if some disagree.

On your points with regards to his suspension and fight, I do find it highly curious that he was the lone "message sender" to be penalized with anything greater than a 2 minute minor. He earned his reputation with his BS last season, and at times, this one, but having a history shouldn't be cause for getting a SIGNIFICANTLY harsher punishment for doing the same exact thing as multiple other players. So I don't care that he got suspended, because I don't think he deserved it. It wasn't a very neighborly thing to do, but it wasn't some kind of deadly punch either. He hit him in the helmet with his glove, and not particularly hard (in hockey terms) at that.

Also, I didn't think Carcillo looked at all out of control during his fight with Talbot. In fact, I thought he appeared downright calm, and I think it was clear from his behavior afterwards that he thought it would get the crowd rowdy, excite his team, and drive home the win. It should have. A strategic error perhaps, to take that risk when the Flyers were comfortably ahead, but a risk worth FIVE unanswered goals? No. Philly is one of my favorite teams to watch, but they played like crap after they scored their third goal and the slaughter of Talbot on the ice should have lit a fire under them. Instead they tried to sit on their lead, and they should all have to answer for it, not just the player who made the flashiest mistake. But I don't think most Philly fans are blaming Carcillo for it anyway. That was all NBC, and I think that's clearly about the desire for a lazy storyline, and the fact that all they ever want to talk about during their broadcasts are the captains and the controversial players.

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04-26-2009, 09:39 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 60DegreesIsCold View Post
I do agree though that we probably don't share the same opinions on the value of a player like Carcillo to a team that can get him under control.
I don't think that team exists. Carcillo's on his third NHL team and I think if a radical change of fundamental personality that would result in him becoming a 30-40 point guy with an edge were going to happen it would have occurred by now.

I harp on this a lot but it bears repeating - there's a myth in professional sports that a trade can be the catalyst that can change a mediocre or borderline player into a productive or even star-caliber one. That actually happens in less than 10% of all trades - in the case of the remaining 90%, the trade only serves to mask the same character attributes that got the guy traded in the first place. Why? Because by the mid-20s any radical change of personality or behavior will already have happened and with each successive year resistance to change builds.

I listened to a radio interview with Danny Carcillo on XM prior to the deadline and he spent a surprisingly long time blaming Pittsburgh for not giving him enough opportunity, for misjudging his game, for a litany of wrongs the organization wreaked on him and his buddies in Wilkes-Barre. To me it solidified the feeling I had about Carcillo - that what we saw was all we were going to get. There is no lurking 30-goal scorer in Carcillo, no hidden star waiting for the right prodding or cajoling to emerge. What you see is what you get... but it seemed like Carcillo himself believed that it was someone else's fault.

That's why I saw no value in keeping him around the Coyotes, and why some Flyers fans are starting to lose patience with him. Danny will always be popular with fans of pugilists but he's too wild and has too little self-control to really be an effective piece of a team's offense, IMO. And if he did not take personal responsibility for changing his game, then his game wasn't ever going to change.

With regards to the fight against Philly, the reason why Carcillo's fight didn't light a fire under the Flyers is that it was just another of Danny's reactive moments. Sure, he demolished Talbot, but a much more effective and smart play would have been for Danny to simply brush Max off - show contempt for Talbot and his attempt to lure him out. That would have sent the message that the Flyers had total control of the game and that the Penguins' desperation would have no takers. As it was, Talbot became the brave teammate who was willing to take one for the team and Carcillo became the guy who couldn't pass up a fight even with a chokehold on the game. No, it didn't DECIDE the game's outcome but it changed the momentum and tenor of it, and once Philly lost the emotional advantage they lost it on the ice.

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04-27-2009, 06:42 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I listened to a radio interview with Danny Carcillo on XM prior to the deadline and he spent a surprisingly long time blaming Pittsburgh for not giving him enough opportunity, for misjudging his game, for a litany of wrongs the organization wreaked on him and his buddies in Wilkes-Barre. To me it solidified the feeling I had about Carcillo - that what we saw was all we were going to get. There is no lurking 30-goal scorer in Carcillo, no hidden star waiting for the right prodding or cajoling to emerge. What you see is what you get... but it seemed like Carcillo himself believed that it was someone else's fault.
Wow... he's blaming Pittsburgh for not giving him the opportunity, when the team in WBS had guys like Talbot, Whitney, Scuderi, Orpik, Goligoski, and a ton more who should have been up in the NHL... hmm..

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04-27-2009, 02:11 PM
  #57
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I always kind of felt that when ever Carcillo fought, it was for himself and his ego. Rather than him trying to defend his teammates and pump them up. There was a huge difference from what I saw in the way the team responded when Carcillo fought, and when Goertzen, Jovo, Hanzal, doan, Fedoruk, etc. fought. It was kind of like, there goes Danny again. When Doan face washed him into the locker room at the end of the game, that's when it became very apparent to me.

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04-27-2009, 06:22 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 60DegreesIsCold View Post
...I do agree though that we probably don't share the same opinions on the value of a player like Carcillo to a team that can get him under control. Heck, we probably disagree on whether or not he can learn to behave himself at all. I think enforcers and agitators bring a lot to a team, but unfortunately many/most of them suck, and the ones who don't (Avery, Pronger, etc.) frequently play on the edge. Carcillo fits into the latter category, but at least when he crosses the line, it's usually from running his mouth and swearing a lot as opposed to thrusting his stick into someone's throat. A big mouth in a young player is a habit that can be broken, and I don't fear that he's going to hurt anyone in the meantime. Meanwhile, in the playoffs, he managed to make a big impact with limited ice time. He established a presence in 6-8 minutes a night, which is no small feat. He scored when Fleury was standing on his head, he got an assist on a game-winning goal, he was hitting, and he was keeping the puck in the offensive zone. Carcillo's line (the fourth line), really contributed to most of Philadelphia's games this playoffs, and he set up several of their more impressive plays. He also hasn't reached his ceiling yet skillwise, IMO.
That is exactly right on all points. Philly is my favorite team so needless to say I caught all of the games, and Carcillo was very effective in limited minutes. He had tremendously more impact than Carter in a third of the minutes (and needless to say that shouldn't happen).

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Originally Posted by 60DegreesIsCold View Post
On your points with regards to his suspension and fight, I do find it highly curious that he was the lone "message sender" to be penalized with anything greater than a 2 minute minor. He earned his reputation with his BS last season, and at times, this one, but having a history shouldn't be cause for getting a SIGNIFICANTLY harsher punishment for doing the same exact thing as multiple other players. So I don't care that he got suspended, because I don't think he deserved it. It wasn't a very neighborly thing to do, but it wasn't some kind of deadly punch either. He hit him in the helmet with his glove, and not particularly hard (in hockey terms) at that.
Right again.

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Originally Posted by 60DegreesIsCold View Post
Also, I didn't think Carcillo looked at all out of control during his fight with Talbot. In fact, I thought he appeared downright calm, and I think it was clear from his behavior afterwards that he thought it would get the crowd rowdy, excite his team, and drive home the win. It should have. A strategic error perhaps, to take that risk when the Flyers were comfortably ahead, but a risk worth FIVE unanswered goals? No. Philly is one of my favorite teams to watch, but they played like crap after they scored their third goal and the slaughter of Talbot on the ice should have lit a fire under them. Instead they tried to sit on their lead, and they should all have to answer for it, not just the player who made the flashiest mistake. But I don't think most Philly fans are blaming Carcillo for it anyway. That was all NBC, and I think that's clearly about the desire for a lazy storyline, and the fact that all they ever want to talk about during their broadcasts are the captains and the controversial players.
Exactly. To blame Carcillo there is ridiculous. You're up 3-0, a guy challenges you that you know you can beat, you beat him, and everyone in the building is fired up. That's when you drive the dagger. But instead they got scared, they tried to protect the lead, they took bad penalties, and Biron and the D were clearly rattled. Carcillo was VERY unfairly blamed by NBC, and at least a dozen times no less.

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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I listened to a radio interview with Danny Carcillo on XM prior to the deadline and he spent a surprisingly long time blaming Pittsburgh for not giving him enough opportunity, for misjudging his game, for a litany of wrongs the organization wreaked on him and his buddies in Wilkes-Barre. To me it solidified the feeling I had about Carcillo - that what we saw was all we were going to get. There is no lurking 30-goal scorer in Carcillo, no hidden star waiting for the right prodding or cajoling to emerge. What you see is what you get... but it seemed like Carcillo himself believed that it was someone else's fault.
That's one of the things that I respect about him. Most guys, and by most I mean like 99.9% will give you the same cookie cutter nonsense, saying something about how they're just happy to be given the opportunity now, blah blah blah. If he feels Pittsburgh didn't give him a fair shake then I like the fact that he says that. Now, does that mean he's right? Of course not. But I like the fact that he speaks his mind.

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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
With regards to the fight against Philly, the reason why Carcillo's fight didn't light a fire under the Flyers is that it was just another of Danny's reactive moments. Sure, he demolished Talbot, but a much more effective and smart play would have been for Danny to simply brush Max off - show contempt for Talbot and his attempt to lure him out. That would have sent the message that the Flyers had total control of the game and that the Penguins' desperation would have no takers. As it was, Talbot became the brave teammate who was willing to take one for the team and Carcillo became the guy who couldn't pass up a fight even with a chokehold on the game. No, it didn't DECIDE the game's outcome but it changed the momentum and tenor of it, and once Philly lost the emotional advantage they lost it on the ice.
The idea (and I'm not saying that is exactly what you're implying, but others have) that Carcillo pounding Talbot to the ice deflated Philly is ridiculous. Now, could seeing Talbot go out there and challenge a tougher opponent inspire the Pens? Sure. Is it the smartest thing for Carcillo to oblige him there? No. But as I mentioned earlier, guys know who they can and can't beat, and Carcillo knows that it's a virtual guaranteed win for him. He figures he pounds Talbot there, the crowd goes wild, and they keep the pedal to the floor and force game seven. To me it says, if you want to challenge me, we will not only beat you on the scoreboard, but we'll beat you up as well. I like that aggressive mentality.

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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
I always kind of felt that when ever Carcillo fought, it was for himself and his ego. Rather than him trying to defend his teammates and pump them up. There was a huge difference from what I saw in the way the team responded when Carcillo fought, and when Goertzen, Jovo, Hanzal, doan, Fedoruk, etc. fought..
Carcillo comes to the aid of his teammates as much as anyone I can think of. To suggest he only fights for himself is absurd. Now, does he fight more for himself than anyone else on the Yotes? No question. But he also is the first guy to come to the aid of a teammate.

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04-27-2009, 06:34 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
The idea (and I'm not saying that is exactly what you're implying, but others have) that Carcillo pounding Talbot to the ice deflated Philly is ridiculous. Now, could seeing Talbot go out there and challenge a tougher opponent inspire the Pens? Sure. Is it the smartest thing for Carcillo to oblige him there? No. But as I mentioned earlier, guys know who they can and can't beat, and Carcillo knows that it's a virtual guaranteed win for him. He figures he pounds Talbot there, the crowd goes wild, and they keep the pedal to the floor and force game seven. To me it says, if you want to challenge me, we will not only beat you on the scoreboard, but we'll beat you up as well. I like that aggressive mentality.
I didn't say that Carcillo's fight "deflated" Philly. But it didn't fire them up, because there wasn't anything behind Carcillo fighting in terms of motivation other than, "Hey, someone wants to fight."

As for liking Carcillo's mentality, more power to you - but he plays stupid hockey. Period. Talbot's picking of the fight was a last gasp type thing to try and get his team fired up. Carcillo thinks about it even for a SECOND and he doesn't fight. He makes Talbot look desperate and the Pens look like fools for trying to goad the Flyers into a scrum. Carcillo should have laughed in his face and skated away... he might have even drawn a penalty that way.

No offense to you at all, but hockey isn't always about aggression and beating guys to a pulp. Hockey at its best is CHANNELED, FOCUSED aggression, and two things Carcillo utterly lacks are discipline and focus. His buttons are incredibly easy to push and he goes from zero to insane in seconds. Talbot knew this - he also knew that very few other Flyers players would take his bait. Talbot may not be a great (or even good) hockey player, but for a fourth-line energy guy he's pretty damn smart.

Now, the Flyers didn't lose the game because of the fight, but there's a good argument to be made that the Pens WON it because of it.

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04-27-2009, 06:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
Carcillo comes to the aid of his teammates as much as anyone I can think of. To suggest he only fights for himself is absurd. Now, does he fight more for himself than anyone else on the Yotes? No question. But he also is the first guy to come to the aid of a teammate.
I would say that Carcillo just enjoys fighting period. Are you going to argue that a lot of penalties he took weren't selfish on his part. To think that maybe Carcillo was fighting just because he likes the attention from his ego is a possibility, not absurd. Don't get me wrong, every time there was a borderline cheap shot I was hoping Carcillo would pound the crap out of him. I just felt like maybe the team really didn't take him fighting as a way to pump up the team. That's why I made the Doan reference, it's not good if your team captain is having a problem with the distraction that he is always constantly making. I would make that trade every day of the week, and while I did miss Carcillo when I heard of the trade, I like what Upshall brings to the table in terms of our system(or at least the system we say we are trying to emulate).

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04-28-2009, 02:44 AM
  #61
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No Stanley Cup this year for Jokinen, Roenick, Claude Lemieux.

I believe The Joker scored 2 goals in his last 19 games for the Flames. Thank goodness the Coyotes got rid of him. Never was a fan of him.
Do you think Jokinen will continue to be on a decline? He just doesn’t make players around him to play better. He has long streak where he doesn’t do anything.

It was a waste of time having 50 year old Claude Lemieux returning to the NHL. He has 1 assist since his return. He provided lots of playoff experience in the dressing room and scored clutch goals for the Sharks.

As for Roenick….. his heart is broken again with no Stanley Cup and his time is running out.

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04-28-2009, 03:07 AM
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Watching Jokinen on a team that actually has a system, I can't say how happy I am that we actually were able to relay him for a couple of assets after losing Ballard. The guy has so many holes in his game, despite being so talented. Chicago beats Calgary in 6. It's going to be interesting to see what Calgary is going to do. I'm hoping that they give us their pick this year, more so for short term happiness.

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04-28-2009, 10:14 AM
  #63
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Watching Jokinen on a team that actually has a system, I can't say how happy I am that we actually were able to relay him for a couple of assets after losing Ballard. The guy has so many holes in his game, despite being so talented. Chicago beats Calgary in 6. It's going to be interesting to see what Calgary is going to do. I'm hoping that they give us their pick this year, more so for short term happiness.
With the parody in this league, if CAL wanted to wait until next year, giving us that pix, I would be ok. Their is always a chance they suffer the injury bug and fall apart and become a lottery pix, not unheard of.

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04-28-2009, 11:32 AM
  #64
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With the parody in this league, if CAL wanted to wait until next year, giving us that pix, I would be ok. Their is always a chance they suffer the injury bug and fall apart and become a lottery pix, not unheard of.
I'm OK waiting, too, as I think there is a very good chance that the Flames will struggle next year. Kipper played poorly down the stretch; Cammellari, Bertuzzi, Aucoin and Leopold are all UFAs; and they're already at $46M against the cap before re-signing or bringing anyone else in. Giving us the 21st overall pick this year sends a message to Flames fans the team is worried next year may be worse. And I don't buy the argument that they could claim the 2010 draft is deeper. I'm liking the Jokinen deal more each day and the flexibility it gives us going into the draft whether we get their 2009 or 2010 1st.

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04-29-2009, 03:02 AM
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...
I didn't want it to seem like I ignored your response, so while I obviously don't agree with everything you said, it's all along the lines of what we've touched on before, and there wasn't anything I strongly disagreed with, so....

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I would say that Carcillo just enjoys fighting period. Are you going to argue that a lot of penalties he took weren't selfish on his part. To think that maybe Carcillo was fighting just because he likes the attention from his ego is a possibility, not absurd. Don't get me wrong, every time there was a borderline cheap shot I was hoping Carcillo would pound the crap out of him. I just felt like maybe the team really didn't take him fighting as a way to pump up the team. That's why I made the Doan reference, it's not good if your team captain is having a problem with the distraction that he is always constantly making. I would make that trade every day of the week, and while I did miss Carcillo when I heard of the trade, I like what Upshall brings to the table in terms of our system(or at least the system we say we are trying to emulate).
He takes some selfish penalties, no question. I would also acknowledge that he fights more because he wants to than perhaps anyone in the league, but again, that's one of the things I like about him. As long as he defends his teammates every single time (which I feel he does), if he wants to fight a lot I'm fine with it. Obviously no one (myself included) wants to see a stupid roughing penalty or unsportsmanlike or whatever, but as long as he and his opponent go off for the same amount of time I'm good with it.

As for the trade, as much as I like Carcillo, there's no question that was a good deal for the Yotes.

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04-29-2009, 03:14 AM
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As long as he defends his teammates every single time (which I feel he does), if he wants to fight a lot I'm fine with it. Obviously no one (myself included) wants to see a stupid roughing penalty or unsportsmanlike or whatever, but as long as he and his opponent go off for the same amount of time I'm good with it.
Up until the bold portion I absolutely agree. But if you're down 1-0 and about to get a power play, stick that penalty in your pocket and retaliate at a more opportune time. That's when Carcillo hurts his team. It's one thing to defend your teammates, but negating a power play that can get you back in the game is quite another.

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04-29-2009, 04:47 AM
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Up until the bold portion I absolutely agree. But if you're down 1-0 and about to get a power play, stick that penalty in your pocket and retaliate at a more opportune time. That's when Carcillo hurts his team. It's one thing to defend your teammates, but negating a power play that can get you back in the game is quite another.
Yeah, I wouldn't argue that those are bad too.

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04-29-2009, 09:00 AM
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Considering how anemic our powerplay was maybe it was strategy for Carcillo to start a fight thus negating the powerplay?



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05-11-2009, 02:09 AM
  #69
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wheeler scratched for bruins game 5 win. hopefully canes win game 6 & that is wheelers last memory of his rookie season....plus that would bump the flames pick up one spot.
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05-11-2009, 04:21 AM
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wheeler scratched for bruins game 5 win. hopefully canes win game 6 & that is wheelers last memory of his rookie season....plus that would bump the flames pick up one spot.
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Not surprising, look at his playoff stats:

Quote:
G A Pts +/- PIM PPG PPA SHG SHA GW GT SOG Pct
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 .000
lol...yep, you're reading that right, those are his total stats for all 8 playoff games.

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05-11-2009, 04:48 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Not surprising, look at his playoff stats:



lol...yep, you're reading that right, those are his total stats for all 8 playoff games.
I hate Wheeler just as much as anyone on these boards, but he is a rookie you know.

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05-11-2009, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
I hate Wheeler just as much as anyone on these boards, but he is a rookie you know.
HERETIC! Burn the WITCH!!!


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05-11-2009, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
I hate Wheeler just as much as anyone on these boards, but he is a rookie you know.
Point?

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05-11-2009, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Point?
I'm pretty sure you're not serious. Anyways my real point should have been, I could give a rats ass about the success that Wheeler has. Any failure is just a bonus.

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05-14-2009, 11:37 PM
  #75
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And down goes the PUKE! Speaking of puke, I'm sure I would've really puked my brains out if I saw that slimey POS hoisting the cup. Honestly, I probably would've puked just all over the place. My carpet, my comforter, my dog, my girlfriend, my fan, and the those cute pictures of the vegetables on my walls, have a lot to thank the Hurricanes for. Now, they just need to take care of the 'Guins. Lord do I hate Crosby, Malkin, Orpik and Kunitz, too. Bill Guerin may be the guy I've hated most in my entire time as a hockey fan, too(Hatcher is a close second). Tough, though, considering how much I like Staal, Goligoski, Letang, and Fleury.

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