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Old
04-13-2009, 07:26 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CoyotesIce99 View Post
I completely agreed with above two comments.



It was Maloney who hire his brother in-law Doug Sullivan as an assistant coach. He should take part of the blame for that hire too. .
Doug Sulliman's Maloney's brother in law??? I thought stopping nepotism and the whole 'Friends of Gretzky' trend was the reason Shumway canned Barnett, conducted an independent search for an 'unrelated' new GM and brought in Maloney in the first place? I think Maloney's ok and has made some decent moves but he does seem to still be tied pretty tight at the hip to the Ranger's camp.

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04-13-2009, 08:00 PM
  #27
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I'm trying to figure out what Gretzky did after the all-star break which caused most to turn on him.

He didn't injure Sauer forcing Hale into the lineup.

He didn't turn Mueller into Tinkerbell

I sure don't agree with some of his lineup decisions (Hale, Lisin, Yandle specifically) and I question his decisions about when to get the backup goalie a game (seemingly never on the 2nd of back to back nights).

I'm really curious what their Powerplay & PK percentages where since the arrival of Lombardi. The lack of the centers ability to win faceoffs during Powerplay/PK time was dreadful and most likely very significant in their poor power play & pk percentages.

I'm not saying Gretzky's a great coach, or even a good one....I'm just not sure I noticed any significant change in what he was doing before or after the all-star break.

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04-13-2009, 08:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
I'm trying to figure out what Gretzky did after the all-star break which caused most to turn on him.

He didn't injure Sauer forcing Hale into the lineup. not why we're mad

He didn't turn Mueller into Tinkerbell true, mueller did suck this year

I sure don't agree with some of his lineup decisions (Hale, Lisin, Yandle specifically) and I question his decisions about when to get the backup goalie a game (seemingly never on the 2nd of back to back nights). very true bryz was overworked alot of the time

I'm really curious what their Powerplay & PK percentages where since the arrival of Lombardi. The lack of the centers ability to win faceoffs during Powerplay/PK time was dreadful and most likely very significant in their poor power play & pk percentages. still awful, i remember reading a pp percentage not too long ago

I'm not saying Gretzky's a great coach, or even a good one....I'm just not sure I noticed any significant change in what he was doing before or after the all-star break. i see what you're saying
my thoughts...

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04-13-2009, 08:42 PM
  #29
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The point here is even tho having a young team maybe wasn't the best approach, putting all the blame on them is stupid as hell. There was so much that went into this team falling again...hell towards the end, this team played well. The young guys like Upshall, Lombardi, Prucha, and others played very well. Blaming just the young players is ridiculous.

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04-13-2009, 09:13 PM
  #30
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I wouldn't blame any of the young players, but I would blame Gretzky/Maloney for deciding to rely so heavily on them. They should have expected younger players to struggle at one point or another during the season. At the same time they were kind of forced into it, without much depth or money to help fill in holes.

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04-13-2009, 09:44 PM
  #31
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I don't think Maloney was blaming just the young players for their free-fall. He basically states that he relied to heavily on youth and will need to give them more time to develop in the minors. Maloney wants a few more veterans who can be a good fit with the younger players(first,second,third year players) on their team. As far as Gretzky goes, he had a really young team to work with and they were either on or off and this comes wiht a young team. After the trade deadline, Gretzky had this team playing pretty well because of a few more players added with more than one or two years under their belt. Goaltending and Powerplays were this teams demise and if you can't learn from the Greatest player to play this game, who are you going to learn it from? Gretzky and Maloney are not all at fault, I blame having the youngest team in the league for this season. Inexpereince vs Experience usually works in an experienced clubs favour.

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04-13-2009, 09:51 PM
  #32
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Yeah I don't think Hanzal took a step back either. At the minimum he stayed where he was. Plus he did score more goals. I'm not worried about his assist numbers given the bottom 6 on this team through the first half the season.

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04-13-2009, 09:55 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
The point here is even tho having a young team maybe wasn't the best approach, putting all the blame on them is stupid as hell. There was so much that went into this team falling again...hell towards the end, this team played well. The young guys like Upshall, Lombardi, Prucha, and others played very well. Blaming just the young players is ridiculous.
agreed. if you look at the YOUNG GUYS....

Boedker and Tikhonov....did they not meet or exceed expectations?

Lisin...granted hes not a defensive force but in 48 games 13goals (5th on the team). if the kid could have played maybe 70 he could have netted 20+

Like you said the new guys upshall, prucha, and lombardi have been playing way better than expected.

Hanzal. you cant judge him buy goals. He faces other teams top centers....and hes -4!!!!! thats awesome. i really think next year and the year after will be big years for him.

Yandle...same for him. he sat the bench this year a few nights but really for a young (offensive) Dman. hes really coming into his game. his confidence level from the first game to the last is totally different and i credit that to SAUER AND KLEE.

Turris...and Muels...thats really the only 2 kids who didnt produce. is that their fault? no. pathetic player development. they decided Mueller needed to bulk up. that slowed him down to fedoruk like speed and really screwed up his game. turris. again victim of bad development. he should have started in SA and progressed his way up like everyone else. turris is good. and in 5 years he could be great.

TGO. i dont think all the fault lays with him. the last few games i really watched what the players off the puck are doing. i really like his break out plays with the high man taking off. if all the players heads are in the game they know were to snap that outlet pass.

i do blame guys like JOKINEN. now this is totally based on speculation and some observation. it just seemed that jokinen came in played his game and clocked out. I think it could have been a different season had he played a bigger mentor role to guys like muels boeds or lisin. Olli would rather take an extremely low percentage shot than pass off for someone who had a better.

unlike klee and sauer who were very verbal with yandel on the ice. and on the bench talking over shifts.

oh well my 2 cents.

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04-13-2009, 09:58 PM
  #34
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3-4 points isn't too much to worry about.

He still played the same defense we know he can and got even further under Thornton's skin. With similar offensive numbers, Hanzal is fine.

I think part of Hanzal's development is getting him out there when the Thorntons, Kopitars, and Getzlafs are on the ice. Pound it into THEIR heads that whenever they're out there, Hanzal will be there, shadowing them.

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04-13-2009, 10:29 PM
  #35
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I'd say Hanzal improved at least 50%.

His offense stayed constant, his physical game increased 100%...with 2 fights adding icing to the cake.

I'm not giving Mueller a pass because he was told to put on some weight...he wasn't fast to begin with, and if he did slow down because of weight he should have played more physical, not less. In my opinion the concussion he got was a result of Mueller's unwillingness to take a hit... had he not ducked to avoid a hit from a guy much smaller who has almost zero history of delivering big checks, his head would not have been in a position to take the blow. He's a less physical player than Turris & Sam Gagner.....I can't say anything more to voice my displeasure with his game.

Pensteel71, are you saying the teams powerplay in the games following the trade deadline was just as bad as it was in the games before it? I'd be shocked. I guess even if it was I'd have to say their powerplay was much better from what I remember.

I'll have to re-read the article but I thought Maloney said the mistake was that managment relied too heavily on youth. He's certainly a competent enough GM to know he can't place the blame on the youngsters.

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04-13-2009, 11:13 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Jake16 View Post
How could Lombardi and Upshall actually be "excited about a change of scenery" that came at the trade deadline?" They left playoff teams (losing that playoff check as well) with rabid, hardcore fan bases that have sold out every game for years to come play for a slumping team that play in a, lets just say 'less than full," arena. The top line and PP minutes are nice for them and their chemistry with Prucha obviously clicked, but I'm just saying that they left pretty good situations that I'm sure they weren't dying to get out of either. They weren't disgruntled where they were. That being said, I think both played great with the Yotes and I hope both stay here in the Valley.
I think Lombardi and Upshall are happy to be given a lot of responsibility, here this is a ton of opportunity. I also have heard somewhere that Lombardi was never a guy that liked being out front in the media as those guys are in Calgary, he's a quiet type, likes to keep to himself, he can actually go out in Scottsdale and not get bombarded by people.
I don't believe Upshall was ever given enough opportunity to be a true NHL scorer. He was used as an energy guy in Philly..I could be wrong, thats just what I took from that.

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Old
04-13-2009, 11:26 PM
  #37
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How could Lombardi and Upshall actually be "excited about a change of scenery" that came at the trade deadline?"
No one ever said anything about them being excited 'at the trade deadline'.

I think a month after the trade is when they saw the opportunity in front of them and the scenery started to look better. I think every young hockey player who thinks they are a top 6 player, and sees in retrospect that they had little chance of playing a top 6 role, is excited for what lays ahead.

That said, now that it's playoff season, I imagine both are pretty down when they see their ex teammates playing. I also imagine at the start of next season, they'll both be more excited for the opportunity they have on the Coyotes vs what they'd have on their old teams.

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04-14-2009, 02:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
I'm not giving Mueller a pass because he was told to put on some weight...he wasn't fast to begin with, and if he did slow down because of weight he should have played more physical, not less. In my opinion the concussion he got was a result of Mueller's unwillingness to take a hit... had he not ducked to avoid a hit from a guy much smaller who has almost zero history of delivering big checks, his head would not have been in a position to take the blow. He's a less physical player than Turris & Sam Gagner.....I can't say anything more to voice my displeasure with his game.
.
He was hit by Rob Niedermeyer, far from this phantom puff ball of a player Mueller was trying so desperately to avoid. From what I saw, Mueller extended his stick to poke check the puck out of the zone, putting his head/body in a vulnerable position. Rob just swung by and sandwiched Pete's head between the boards and his elbow pad. I guess you can say he took a hit to make a play, which is apparently your main problem with the guy. It's amazing how much flak Mueller gets around here, the guy is in his second year and had a bad sophomore slump, yet people want to criticize the guy for taking a step back from his stellar rookie year. Yes the guy is soft, but Mueller has world class talent give him a few years in the league before everyone calls for his head.

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04-14-2009, 03:47 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
Pensteel71, are you saying the teams powerplay in the games following the trade deadline was just as bad as it was in the games before it? I'd be shocked. I guess even if it was I'd have to say their powerplay was much better from what I remember.
Not just as bad, but not good either. Saying it was much better is an overstatement.

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04-14-2009, 10:02 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
I'm trying to figure out what Gretzky did after the all-star break which caused most to turn on him.

He didn't injure Sauer forcing Hale into the lineup.

He didn't turn Mueller into Tinkerbell

I sure don't agree with some of his lineup decisions (Hale, Lisin, Yandle specifically) and I question his decisions about when to get the backup goalie a game (seemingly never on the 2nd of back to back nights).

I'm really curious what their Powerplay & PK percentages where since the arrival of Lombardi. The lack of the centers ability to win faceoffs during Powerplay/PK time was dreadful and most likely very significant in their poor power play & pk percentages.

I'm not saying Gretzky's a great coach, or even a good one....I'm just not sure I noticed any significant change in what he was doing before or after the all-star break.
OK, here is why I think Gretzky needs to go:

He is the worst coach, statistically, in the history of the franchise. His career winning percentage is embarrassing. It is not just the players fault.

Looking at the season we are in the bottom 5 or 6 in the most important categories - scoring, defense, pp, pk.

We have the talent that our PP should not be so bad. That is coaching.

A poor defense system is coaching.

The coach has to create a system that works for his roster. Maximize the strengths. Gretzky couldn't seem to figure that out.

Over rewarding "hard work" (Fedoruk, Hale) over results (Lisin. Yandle) happened way too frequently.

He made questionable calls - benching Turris for the Vancouver game (his home town), demoting Turris the day his girlfriend travels to Phoenix, misplayed Lisin, refused to play Yandle, constantly broke up lines, never developed chemistry, etc that affected the development of our young players (to be fair I thought he did a great job last year, gradually increasing the responsibility to Hanzal, Mueller).

Plus, he is still a whiner. Not the persona a very young team needs IMO.

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04-14-2009, 12:42 PM
  #41
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OK, here is why I think Gretzky needs to go:

He is the worst coach, statistically, in the history of the franchise. His career winning percentage is embarrassing. It is not just the players fault.

Looking at the season we are in the bottom 5 or 6 in the most important categories - scoring, defense, pp, pk.

We have the talent that our PP should not be so bad. That is coaching.

A poor defense system is coaching.

The coach has to create a system that works for his roster. Maximize the strengths. Gretzky couldn't seem to figure that out.

Over rewarding "hard work" (Fedoruk, Hale) over results (Lisin. Yandle) happened way too frequently.

He made questionable calls - benching Turris for the Vancouver game (his home town), demoting Turris the day his girlfriend travels to Phoenix, misplayed Lisin, refused to play Yandle, constantly broke up lines, never developed chemistry, etc that affected the development of our young players (to be fair I thought he did a great job last year, gradually increasing the responsibility to Hanzal, Mueller).

Plus, he is still a whiner. Not the persona a very young team needs IMO.
Agreed.
Pretty much everything this team is deficient at is related to coaching. Personnel decisions have been questionable. Special teams have been abysmal. Player progress has been spotty. His record is brutal. Not only that, Morris says we have "schemes" Telly said our practices are soft.
What justification other than ownership limbo is there for him still having a job? None.

But, as ive said, i don't expect anything to happen until the bigger issue is resolved.

As far as post deadline improvements: pretty much everything can be attributed to the new personnel, from what I've seen. The powerplay has been better because upshall/lombardi/prucha have been on it, and faceoffs are pretty much entirely from replacing jokinen with lombardi.

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04-14-2009, 01:01 PM
  #42
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I'm trying to figure out what Gretzky did after the all-star break which caused most to turn on him.
It's not that Gretzky suddenly became bad. It's just that he's never been good but didn't have enough experience under his belt to be judged fairly. If you look at our numbers around the ASG, our 5th place didn't make any sense. We were terrible in goals for, our PP was bad as well. Hence that Canadian article putting us 22nd despite our #5 ranking in the west.

He's now been coaching full-time for 4 years. Is he better now than he was when he started? I personally don't think so. And our stats don't think to indicate as much either.

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04-14-2009, 01:44 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
He was hit by Rob Niedermeyer, far from this phantom puff ball of a player Mueller was trying so desperately to avoid. From what I saw, Mueller extended his stick to poke check the puck out of the zone, putting his head/body in a vulnerable position. Rob just swung by and sandwiched Pete's head between the boards and his elbow pad. I guess you can say he took a hit to make a play, which is apparently your main problem with the guy.
That is what happened. It is unfortunate that Meuller had a disappointing sophomore season, but blaming him for his concussion is pathetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducky View Post
OK, here is why I think Gretzky needs to go:

He is the worst coach, statistically, in the history of the franchise. His career winning percentage is embarrassing. It is not just the players fault.

Looking at the season we are in the bottom 5 or 6 in the most important categories - scoring, defense, pp, pk.

We have the talent that our PP should not be so bad. That is coaching.

A poor defense system is coaching.

The coach has to create a system that works for his roster. Maximize the strengths. Gretzky couldn't seem to figure that out.

Over rewarding "hard work" (Fedoruk, Hale) over results (Lisin. Yandle) happened way too frequently.

He made questionable calls - benching Turris for the Vancouver game (his home town), demoting Turris the day his girlfriend travels to Phoenix, misplayed Lisin, refused to play Yandle, constantly broke up lines, never developed chemistry, etc that affected the development of our young players (to be fair I thought he did a great job last year, gradually increasing the responsibility to Hanzal, Mueller).

Plus, he is still a whiner. Not the persona a very young team needs IMO.
Thanks, that is a solid summary. The system the team plays is rudimentary and disappointing. The line up changes have been disappointing. The statistical results, even when they were in the playoff hunt, are disappointing. The lack of winning during Gretzky's tenure is disappointing. Gretzky is a disappointment. If the team is serious about winning they need to get a legitimate coach.

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It's not that Gretzky suddenly became bad. It's just that he's never been good but didn't have enough experience under his belt to be judged fairly. If you look at our numbers around the ASG, our 5th place didn't make any sense. We were terrible in goals for, our PP was bad as well. Hence that Canadian article putting us 22nd despite our #5 ranking in the west.

He's now been coaching full-time for 4 years. Is he better now than he was when he started? I personally don't think so. And our stats don't think to indicate as much either.
Even if Gretzky still has the potential to become a decent coach, how long is the team willing to be subject to his education instead of focusing on trying to be competitive? As a fan, I have had enough. If Gretzky wants to be a coach, let him learn like other coaches do coming up the ranks, not in the NHL.

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04-14-2009, 03:20 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
He was hit by Rob Niedermeyer, far from this phantom puff ball of a player Mueller was trying so desperately to avoid. From what I saw, Mueller extended his stick to poke check the puck out of the zone, putting his head/body in a vulnerable position. Rob just swung by and sandwiched Pete's head between the boards and his elbow pad. I guess you can say he took a hit to make a play, which is apparently your main problem with the guy. It's amazing how much flak Mueller gets around here, the guy is in his second year and had a bad sophomore slump, yet people want to criticize the guy for taking a step back from his stellar rookie year. Yes the guy is soft, but Mueller has world class talent give him a few years in the league before everyone calls for his head.
I thought it was Getzlaf. Someone earlier said Mueller slew footed him in the 1/27 (first game after All State break) game and Getlaf went after him with a fury. (I was there but missed the slew foot play). But here's our season from there:
1. Its still a tight game in the 2nd v. Ducks;
2. Mueller gets hit hard to the head.
3. He's comepletely staggering around the ice not knowing what planet he's on.
4. No penalty on the play.
5. Ducks score as Yotes are essentially short a man.
6. From there game turns into a complete rout and the 1-9 post All Star slump begins, crippling the Yotes' season.
7. Getzlaf's ecstatic he got revenge by giving Mueller a concussion.

That play along with Sauer's injury at the same time played a huge role in the slump.


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04-14-2009, 03:27 PM
  #45
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I don't think the article is saying it's the kids fault. I think it's merely pointing out that if you ice a team of youngsters, you shouldn't be that surprised by the result.
I was waiting for an answer like this. How soon people forget that even though the Coyotes may have a great starting core they simply don't have the organizational depth to fill in the gaps when the starting core goes to the IR. This is why the Coyotes plummeted into the cellar this year. You can't expect youth from the Farm with little to no NHL experience to carry the team into the playoffs.

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04-14-2009, 05:42 PM
  #46
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That is what happened. It is unfortunate that Meuller had a disappointing sophomore season, but blaming him for his concussion is pathetic.
I completely agree.

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I thought it was Getzlaf. Someone earlier said Mueller slew footed him in the 1/27 (first game after All State break) game and Getlaf went after him with a fury. (I was there but missed the slew foot play). But here's our season from there:
1. Its still a tight game in the 2nd v. Ducks;
2. Mueller gets hit hard to the head.
3. He's comepletely staggering around the ice not knowing what planet he's on.
4. No penalty on the play.
5. Ducks score as Yotes are essentially short a man.
6. From there game turns into a complete rout and the 1-9 post All Star slump begins, crippling the Yotes' season.
7. Getzlaf's ecstatic he got revenge by giving Mueller a concussion.

That play along with Sauer's injury at the same time played a huge role in the slump.
That was quite a while ago, so I might not be totally correct, but that wasn't the play I was thinking of which gave Mueller a concussion. The Getzlaf one I believe he did slew foot him, and Getzlaf kind of stood over him and gave him a few shots to the back of the head(no call on the play). The Niedermeyer one, was when Mueller was trying to get the puck out of the one and took a check to the head for his efforts. Sad part about that play, the puck went into the neutral zone and the Ducks regrouped and came back into the zone and scored with little time left in the period. Despite Mueller crawling on his knees, and him obviously in dire need of attention. Head shots are a serious thing, I'm lucky to say that I've never experienced a concussion, but I've seen my teammates go through them and they are scary.

Muellers play this year is night and day compared to his rookie year. I came across this yesterday. In case anyone forgot just how talented Mueller is, they should watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q196Wf3umhI

One things for sure, Muells needs to grow the locks back.

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04-14-2009, 05:56 PM
  #47
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let him learn like other coaches do coming up the ranks, not in the NHL.
Roy, arguably the greatest goalie (to compare top players like Gretzky and Roy) is coaching the Remparts. He didn't jump to coaching in the NHL. And now some pundits think he may coach the Avs next season.

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04-14-2009, 07:46 PM
  #48
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Roy, arguably the greatest goalie (to compare top players like Gretzky and Roy) is coaching the Remparts. He didn't jump to coaching in the NHL. And now some pundits think he may coach the Avs next season.
If Roy does become coach my theory about incompetence running rampant in the Avs organization will finally be proved.

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04-14-2009, 07:57 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
If Roy does become coach my theory about incompetence running rampant in the Avs organization will finally be proved.
may be so but its an example of someone not jumping to the bigs right away when they are clearly green.

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04-14-2009, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperHF View Post
may be so but its an example of someone not jumping to the bigs right away when they are clearly green.
Agreed.

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