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What's the debate for greatest of all time?

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Old
05-29-2017, 01:32 PM
  #1
HansonBro
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What's the debate for greatest of all time?

Is it the last emperor? Gracie? Someone else?

For me it's Fedor

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05-29-2017, 02:24 PM
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m9
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Jon Jones, then everyone else.

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05-29-2017, 02:35 PM
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jw2
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The guys in the convo being Fedor, GSP, Jones and Silva.

We will see how Jones looks in his return.

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05-29-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
The guys in the convo being Fedor, GSP, Jones and Silva.

We will see how Jones looks in his return.
Wondering your opinions on Gracie then. Was he just too far ahead of his generation at the time? A lightweight beating heavyweights is a big deal. Especially with multiple fights in one night

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05-29-2017, 03:15 PM
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Wondering your opinions on Gracie then. Was he just too far ahead of his generation at the time? A lightweight beating heavyweights is a big deal. Especially with multiple fights in one night
A pioneer, no doubt. Just not among the top 4. I'd have him in the top 10.
After UFC 4, all his fights were hand picked, with special rules, etc that always benefited him.

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05-29-2017, 03:19 PM
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jw2
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Here's the quick poll series from a few years ago.
As you can see from the top 8, probably not the best place to poll outside the top 4.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...light=all+time

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05-29-2017, 03:27 PM
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kurt
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Should be Jones but he has screwed up a bunch. Still could be Jones.

Could also be Mighty Mouse - if he could avenge his loss to Cruz, or beat someone like Dillashaw or Barao, that would be massive.

Nobody has done what Fedor did, though.

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05-29-2017, 05:34 PM
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As much as I didn't really appreciate his greatness at the time, for me it's Silva. Guy was so much better than everyone else that he did stuff in his fights to entertain himself just because he was bored. That's how good he was. Even when he lost to Weidman, he only lost because he was clowning around in there.

Jones could have been the GOAT, but the guy is a complete **** up.

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05-30-2017, 09:21 AM
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MD thaivuN
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i feel like Jose Aldo deserves to be in the discussion for GOAT, regardless of his loss against Conor

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05-30-2017, 01:20 PM
  #10
kurt
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The absolute top of the heap:

Fedor Emelianenko
Undefeated Streak: 33* (TK "loss" due to cut from illegal strike, tournament format required a winner to advance so could not be ruled a no contest)
UFC Title Defenses: N/A
Notable Wins: Nogueira x2 (PRIDE & Interim UFC HW Champ), Coleman (UFC HW Champ), Randleman (UFC HW Champ), Sylvia (UFC HW Champ), Arlovski (UFC HW Champ), Filipovic (PRIDE GP champ), Hunt, Arona, Schilt
Comments: Probably a natural LHW. Dominant from 2000-2009. Biggest criticism is not fighting top competition from 2007 onward. Struggled to earn several wins.

Jon Jones
Undefeated Streak: 22* (1 loss due to DQ)
UFC Title Defenses: 8
Notable Wins: Rua (UFC LHW Champ, PRIDE GP champ), Jackson (UFC LHW Champ), Machida (UFC LHW Champ), Evans (UFC LHW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Cormier (UFC LHW Champ, Strikeforce GP Champ), Gustavson, Teixiera, Sonnen
Comments: Issues outside the cage, but inside the cage there is no question to his dominance from 2009-2015.

Anderson Silva
Undefeated Streak: 20* (17 if you exclude his DQ for an illegal upkick)
UFC Title Defenses: 11* (10 if you exclude Lutter fight where he missed weight)
Notable Wins: Henderson (PRIDE MW & WW Champ, SF LHW Champ), Franklin x2 (UFC MW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Griffin (UFC LHW Champ), Okami, Newton (UFC WW Champ), Marquardt (SF WW Champ), Maia, Sonnen x2
Comments: Fought in multiple divisions. Almost always completely dominant in his performances.

Honourable mentions:

Georges St. Pierre
Cyborg Justino
Demetrius Johnson
Jose Aldo
BJ Penn

Others:

Dominick Cruz
Daniel Cormier
Randy Couture
Tito Ortiz
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Chuck Liddell
Kazushi Sakuraba
Bas Rutten
Big Nog
Wanderlei Silva
Royce Gracie

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05-30-2017, 01:34 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
The absolute top of the heap:

Fedor Emelianenko
Undefeated Streak: 33* (TK "loss" due to cut from illegal strike, tournament format required a winner to advance so could not be ruled a no contest)
UFC Title Defenses: N/A
Notable Wins: Nogueira x2 (PRIDE & Interim UFC HW Champ), Coleman (UFC HW Champ), Randleman (UFC HW Champ), Sylvia (UFC HW Champ), Arlovski (UFC HW Champ), Filipovic (PRIDE GP champ), Hunt, Arona, Schilt
Comments: Probably a natural LHW. Dominant from 2000-2009. Biggest criticism is not fighting top competition from 2007 onward. Struggled to earn several wins.

Jon Jones
Undefeated Streak: 22* (1 loss due to DQ)
UFC Title Defenses: 8
Notable Wins: Rua (UFC LHW Champ, PRIDE GP champ), Jackson (UFC LHW Champ), Machida (UFC LHW Champ), Evans (UFC LHW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Cormier (UFC LHW Champ, Strikeforce GP Champ), Gustavson, Teixiera, Sonnen
Comments: Issues outside the cage, but inside the cage there is no question to his dominance from 2009-2015.

Anderson Silva
Undefeated Streak: 20* (17 if you exclude his DQ for an illegal upkick)
UFC Title Defenses: 11* (10 if you exclude Lutter fight where he missed weight)
Notable Wins: Henderson (PRIDE MW & WW Champ, SF LHW Champ), Franklin x2 (UFC MW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Griffin (UFC LHW Champ), Okami, Newton (UFC WW Champ), Marquardt (SF WW Champ), Maia, Sonnen x2
Comments: Fought in multiple divisions. Almost always completely dominant in his performances.

Honourable mentions:

Georges St. Pierre
Cyborg Justino
Demetrius Johnson
Jose Aldo
BJ Penn

Others:

Dominick Cruz
Daniel Cormier
Randy Couture
Tito Ortiz
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Chuck Liddell
Kazushi Sakuraba
Bas Rutten
Big Nog
Wanderlei Silva
Royce Gracie
GSP has to be in that top tier.

I would also move Cormier up a tier. He is very underrated because he can't beat Jones, but he has put together an awesome resume.

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05-30-2017, 03:03 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m9 View Post
GSP has to be in that top tier.

I would also move Cormier up a tier. He is very underrated because he can't beat Jones, but he has put together an awesome resume.
Based on what criteria is GSP worthy of top tier? I don't know... his undefeated streak is at 12, which a handful of others can match. His most notable wins are against Penn, Hughes, Diaz, Condit, and Hendricks. Maybe Trigg, Serra, Shields and Koscheck are considered top guys too.

I love GSP and he was amazing, but I just don't know if he is quite in the same conversation as the 3 I've listed. I just can't put together an argument that sensibly includes him and not also a handful of other athletes.


Last edited by kurt: 05-30-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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Old
05-30-2017, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
Based on what criteria is GSP worthy of top tier? I don't know... his undefeated streak is at 12, which a handful of others can match. His most notable wins are against Penn, Hughes, Diaz, Condit, and Hendricks.

I love GSP and he was amazing, but I just don't know if he is quite in the same conversation as the 3 I've listed. I just can't put together an argument that sensibly includes him and not also a handful of other athletes.
I think his resume kind of speaks for itself. Long-running champion in a deep division that always fought the top contenders. I have him ahead of Fedor because of the quality of the resume, though I do have Fedor as the 4th head on the MMA Mt Rushmore.

I have:

Jones
Silva
GSP
Fedor

.. then for 5th I would be fine with a large number of choices. BJ Penn would be much further down my list than most though, wouldn't crack my top ten.

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05-30-2017, 03:47 PM
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kurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m9 View Post
I think his resume kind of speaks for itself. Long-running champion in a deep division that always fought the top contenders. I have him ahead of Fedor because of the quality of the resume, though I do have Fedor as the 4th head on the MMA Mt Rushmore.

I have:

Jones
Silva
GSP
Fedor

.. then for 5th I would be fine with a large number of choices. BJ Penn would be much further down my list than most though, wouldn't crack my top ten.
"resume kind of speaks for itself"
"quality of the resume"

Can you qualify those statements? I think there's just too much subjective bias involved.

I think GSP would have had to not get knocked out by Serra, or suffer that first loss to Hughes to be in the conversation. And stay in the game and win a Hendricks rematch.

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05-30-2017, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
"resume kind of speaks for itself"
"quality of the resume"

Can you qualify those statements? I think there's just too much subjective bias involved.

I think GSP would have had to not get knocked out by Serra, or suffer that first loss to Hughes to be in the conversation. And stay in the game and win a Hendricks rematch.
He consistently fought (and beat) the top competition in his division for many years. And, a good division too - he wasn't beating up nobodies like DJ, Aldo, or Fedor. The Serra loss and his lack of finishing ability is what separates him from being at the Anderson Silva level.

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05-30-2017, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m9 View Post
He consistently fought (and beat) the top competition in his division for many years. And, a good division too - he wasn't beating up nobodies like DJ, Aldo, or Fedor. The Serra loss and his lack of finishing ability is what separates him from being at the Anderson Silva level.
"many years" = 5 years.

As far as quality of opponents go, all fighters mentioned beat exceptional opponents and some less exceptional ones. They were all indisputably at the absolute top of the heap in their divisions.

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05-30-2017, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
"many years" = 5 years.

As far as quality of opponents go, all fighters mentioned beat exceptional opponents and some less exceptional ones. They were all indisputably at the absolute top of the heap in their divisions.
Over 6 years.

But that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion. I'm not even a big GSP or anything, but he's earned his place near the top.

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05-30-2017, 05:21 PM
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Over 6 years.

But that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion. I'm not even a big GSP or anything, but he's earned his place near the top.
Sorry, I miscounted. You're right. It is just over 6 years. I still think it's quantifiably outstripped by Fedor's run, but GSP would be the guy if he stuck around and won a rematch against Hendricks, and beat guys like Woodley, Lawler, Wonderboy.

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05-30-2017, 05:23 PM
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I personally think Fedor is overrated by way too many people. Fought second rate opponents for a lot of his career. fought a lot in Pride where the truthfulness of the outcome may or may not have been on the up and up, and the consecutive loses to Henderson, Werdum, and Silva were more indicative of what he was. Couple that with the tarnish he's putting on his career with this comeback (Maldonado destroyed him, no matter what the Russian fight federation says), and by the end, he may be like BJ Penn. Great fighter that the game passed by.

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05-30-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kurt View Post
Sorry, I miscounted. You're right. It is just over 6 years. I still think it's quantifiably outstripped by Fedor's run, but GSP would be the guy if he stuck around and won a rematch against Hendricks, and beat guys like Woodley, Lawler, Wonderboy.
I think GSP & Fedor's runs are similar, with Fedor's looking better because of a bunch of filler fights in there. But hey, it's #3 vs #4 for me so it's not really a big deal either way.

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05-31-2017, 05:10 AM
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Joanna Champion

Better striker than most of the men in UFC. Can you tell me some other comparable sport where woman is clearly ahead most of mans. He could beat everyone from this forum under 10 seconds at street fight.

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05-31-2017, 12:05 PM
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Pound for pound, I think Jones has put together the most impressive resume

I don't think anybody has ever really come close to beating him

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05-31-2017, 07:36 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
The absolute top of the heap:

Fedor Emelianenko
Undefeated Streak: 33* (TK "loss" due to cut from illegal strike, tournament format required a winner to advance so could not be ruled a no contest)
UFC Title Defenses: N/A
Notable Wins: Nogueira x2 (PRIDE & Interim UFC HW Champ), Coleman (UFC HW Champ), Randleman (UFC HW Champ), Sylvia (UFC HW Champ), Arlovski (UFC HW Champ), Filipovic (PRIDE GP champ), Hunt, Arona, Schilt
Comments: Probably a natural LHW. Dominant from 2000-2009. Biggest criticism is not fighting top competition from 2007 onward. Struggled to earn several wins.

Jon Jones
Undefeated Streak: 22* (1 loss due to DQ)
UFC Title Defenses: 8
Notable Wins: Rua (UFC LHW Champ, PRIDE GP champ), Jackson (UFC LHW Champ), Machida (UFC LHW Champ), Evans (UFC LHW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Cormier (UFC LHW Champ, Strikeforce GP Champ), Gustavson, Teixiera, Sonnen
Comments: Issues outside the cage, but inside the cage there is no question to his dominance from 2009-2015.

Anderson Silva
Undefeated Streak: 20* (17 if you exclude his DQ for an illegal upkick)
UFC Title Defenses: 11* (10 if you exclude Lutter fight where he missed weight)
Notable Wins: Henderson (PRIDE MW & WW Champ, SF LHW Champ), Franklin x2 (UFC MW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Griffin (UFC LHW Champ), Okami, Newton (UFC WW Champ), Marquardt (SF WW Champ), Maia, Sonnen x2
Comments: Fought in multiple divisions. Almost always completely dominant in his performances.

Honourable mentions:

Georges St. Pierre
Cyborg Justino
Demetrius Johnson
Jose Aldo
BJ Penn

Others:

Dominick Cruz
Daniel Cormier
Randy Couture
Tito Ortiz
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Chuck Liddell
Kazushi Sakuraba
Bas Rutten
Big Nog
Wanderlei Silva
Royce Gracie
I'm a Jones fan, and I like to think of him as number 1 (or on the verge), I think a lot will depend on his return.

But, I think the guy he needs to surpass is GSP, and I'm certainly not a GSP fan.
Georges completely dominated all of his fights since Serra, with the Hendricks fight being a toss up (and that was a different GSP, like his head was already retired) He could win any way he wanted. He beat people with wrestling - and he wasn't even a good wrestler when he entered the sport.

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06-01-2017, 02:45 PM
  #24
kurt
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If there's a quantifiable argument that can bump GSP out of Cruz/Mighty Mouse territory and into the top group, I'd love to read it. Maybe highest % of rounds won? Or best significant strike differential or something?

Based on records, I just can't seem to figure out how to put him at the top.

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06-02-2017, 10:41 AM
  #25
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Jones : Hopefully he can come back to form and absolutely crush DC. I really don't care what he does outside of the octagon because what he does Inside is amazing.If he can win a couple in a row and eventually move to HW that will only cement his greatness.

Anderson Silva: probably the most dangerous striker the UFC has ever seen. Absolutely electric when in his prime.

GSP: the best athlete to ever step foot in the octagon and the best to neutralize the opponents strengths.Big win streak against stiff competition and if he had more of a killer instinct could possibly be considered as the best

HM:

Fédor
Gracie
DJ
Penn
Aldo

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