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Mediocre first round drafting - the reason for our mediocrity?

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:34 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
I'm sure Kostitsyn would be great on another team...for some reasons, some players don't seem to reach their full potential in Montreal. It's not Timmins's fault. And I don't think you look at it the right way. IMO, to say if a scout is good or not, you have to look in term of NHLers he find on draft day.

Kostitsyn and Price are clear NHLers, even if Andrei hasn't reached his potential yet.


Fisher and McDonagh, well, we'll have to wait and see...

As for the 1st rounder we gave to Calgary, do you really think it will set us back? We got Tanguay, who I believe will re-sign with us, and who will be better than anyone we would have picked with the 25th overall pick...
for some reason I can't explain, I totally agree with that statement and with the rest of your post.

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04-17-2009, 11:35 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by superstar436 View Post
2006 draftee

1st round - Fisher
2nd round - Maxwell

2006 available

1st round Berglund
2nd round Lucic

No we do not need size, skill and toughness coz we have plenty of the that down in Hamilton. We just need skill.
It is a mentality issue!
I find this post to be really ignorant.

The 2006 draft was different for us because we needed to add depht on the blue line. i think Timmins already stated that he went for needs that year. Sure we needed physical players, but more defense prospect was more important than anything else. That's why we drafted Fischer, who was for the Habs the most interesting D at that position. Don't forget that we were building the team...

As for Lucic, the guy had 19 points in his draft year. Maxwell had a good season and was view by many as a 1st round pick. The guy fell on draft day...it was only logic for the Habs to take a flyer on him. It's not like he's a bad pick either...he could be a better version of Plekanec...

In retrospect, it's easy to say Lucic was a good pick at that position, but at the time, we would have bashed Timmins for a pick like that...

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04-17-2009, 11:40 AM
  #53
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Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.

This is the Montreal Canadiens the most succesful franchise since the start of the NHL. It thrived on excellence and the desire to win / and be the best.

Today we are consoling our management for failures in very many aspects, and despite personal preferences - we do not have the collective will power to see how far we are from the big picture.

Drafting is a CRUCIAL part of success (just ask Detroit,New Jersey,Washington,San Jose,Chicago) - had we executed properly, the Habs would be among the elite teams in the league today.

But hey shoot the messenger, because I'm not allowed to have that intense desire to see the Habs return to glory....at least I wont settle for half-measures and excuses.

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04-17-2009, 11:50 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.

This is the Montreal Canadiens the most succesful franchise since the start of the NHL. It thrived on excellence and the desire to win / and be the best.

Today we are consoling our management for failures in very many aspects, and despite personal preferences - we do not have the collective will power to see how far we are from the big picture.

Drafting is a CRUCIAL part of success (just ask Detroit,New Jersey,Washington,San Jose,Chicago) - had we executed properly, the Habs would be among the elite teams in the league today.

But hey shoot the messenger, because I'm not allowed to have that intense desire to see the Habs return to glory....at least I wont settle for half-measures and excuses.
We all agree that we've made mistakes at the draft table...but EVERY SINGLE TEAM made mistakes in the past few years. You can't have a perfect draft...

But what we do see in Montreal, and what we are lucky to see is having at least 2 NHLers per draft. Not many teams can say the same.

Just look at all the players we've draft that are actualy in the line-up. The number is quite big! And there's still some prospects who are on the way of making it.

You can say whatever you want about the better options we had, but the can't denied the fact that we've produced NHLers in every single draft Timmins took care of.

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04-17-2009, 11:55 AM
  #55
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Tampa Bay have 2 superstar players and 1 potential star in Stamkos. where are they?

It's not a question of who has the most stars in their team, especially in an NHL with a salary cap. I'd rather have 7-8 players who can potentially get 50-60 points than 2 players who get 100 points and no depth.

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04-17-2009, 11:57 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
26G in his first season last year.

2nd year, one that many consider disappointing, he had 23G. His production ceased after a ridiculous headline was published in La Presse ''The darkest day in Habs history''.

You know what..if this guy can net 23G in a disappointing season, I don't mind being more patient with him. After all, it's only his 2nd season. Him and his bro have crazy potential written all over them, giving up on them after their 2nd season would be absolutely stupid.
right on the money with AKost. He can pot 40 a season if he can pull it all together. He just needs to be more consistent in his efforts. When he's playing at his full speed and drive he's SCARY.

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04-17-2009, 11:58 AM
  #57
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The only problem I have with the A.kost draft is not that we drafted A.kost. My problem is that, for years we have been saying that we need a big center man. Like its been forever, and that has been our downfall.

So then this draft comes up, and you can draft a guy like Getzlaf, who is huge and obviously very good. Or you can draft Richards. Instead, we draft another winger. That is what I dont get.

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04-17-2009, 11:59 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.

This is the Montreal Canadiens the most succesful franchise since the start of the NHL. It thrived on excellence and the desire to win / and be the best.

Today we are consoling our management for failures in very many aspects, and despite personal preferences - we do not have the collective will power to see how far we are from the big picture.

Drafting is a CRUCIAL part of success (just ask Detroit,New Jersey,Washington,San Jose,Chicago) - had we executed properly, the Habs would be among the elite teams in the league today.

But hey shoot the messenger, because I'm not allowed to have that intense desire to see the Habs return to glory....at least I wont settle for half-measures and excuses.
We're shooting the messenger because you're complaining about something ridiculous...Bringing up second round picks in discussion is ridiculous...EVEN THE BRUINS PASSED ON LUCIC...same for Bergeron...they're surprise bloomers who even the Bruins didn't expect to play like that

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04-17-2009, 12:01 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sXe View Post
Detroit first round drafting is worse. They can't draft superstars before the 5th round.


Post Of The Year

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:08 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.
The problem is, you start a thread bashing the Habs draft picks, and stating opinions which are off base. No one knows the future, who knows what Fischer or Chipchura will do, same as Kostitsyn, who's to say he won't break out in 2 years.

The best asset the Habs have is their drafting, imo, yes mistakes are made, but that's because every person on earth makes them, it's impossible not to have some mistakes. Yea Timmins should have drafted Getzlaf over Kosty, etc.. but at the same time he's drafted guys like Halak, Streit, S.Kostitsyn, D'Agostini, etc... all in the late rounds and the guys he drafted have been successful this year in Hamilton like Weber, Pacioretty, Maxwell, etc... So why focus on what he should have done when we don't know how said picks will even turn out, come back in 10 years and we'll see what Timmins draft record looks like.

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04-17-2009, 12:19 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.

This is the Montreal Canadiens the most succesful franchise since the start of the NHL. It thrived on excellence and the desire to win / and be the best.

Today we are consoling our management for failures in very many aspects, and despite personal preferences - we do not have the collective will power to see how far we are from the big picture.
I cannot stand it when people bring this up. Do you not realize how the game has changed from those days?

It's not like it used to be back in the day. Every team has dozens of scouts scouting the entire world for hockey talent.

With the media and increased ease of communciations, if a player is really good, everyone will know about it.
All of the prospects have been training for years to play hockey so it's much more difficult to find a diamond in the rough type of player that has oodles of talent and no training.
With drafting and salary caps, it's very difficult for any team to gain any sort of advantage.

How does the fact that Montreal is the most storied franchise in the league give them any advantage whatsoever over other teams? Why should we reasonably expect the Montreal Canadiens to do better than the average team in the long run if they have no advantage?
The only advantage I can see is that we have a very strong alumni from which we can choose our staff.

One big disadvantage we have is that because of the team's strong past, the media and fans would not accept two or three years of being the worst team in the league, therefore making it impossible for the Habs to gain those valuable first picks.

With what Gainey has had to work with, I think he's done a commendable job and has restored our farm system and given us some respect back after many many years of being slightly below average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Drafting is a CRUCIAL part of success (just ask Detroit,New Jersey,Washington,San Jose,Chicago) - had we executed properly, the Habs would be among the elite teams in the league today.

But hey shoot the messenger, because I'm not allowed to have that intense desire to see the Habs return to glory....at least I wont settle for half-measures and excuses.
Detroit is the exception to the rule in the NHL. I can't explain their greatness. I don't know if it's their developmental system, their drafting abilities, luck, or any combination of the above, but they have been able to maintain a very competitive team for 10+ years. That is almost unheard of.
As much as I would like the Habs to be like that, I don't know how we would go about doing it. And I'm sure if it was that simple, every team would be doing the same thing.

New Jersey has been riding Brodeur and a very good defensive system for a very long time and have managed to remain competitive because of that. They managed a couple good draft picks, but I don't see how their drafting is so amazing.

Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Washington were awful teams for a number of years. Of course they're going to become a power house eventually.
Watch, the next one will probably be Tampa or maybe the Islanders in a few years if their management doesn't ruin their team.

San Jose was also terrible for a long time and got vey lucky with the Thornton trade. I don't see how their drafting has been that impressive.

The fact of the matter remains that drafts are mostly a crapshoot. If you have a good scouting system you might be slightly better off than other teams in the long run, but luck plays a huge part in drafting as does the developmental system the team has in place.


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Old
04-17-2009, 03:09 PM
  #62
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Could people please shut up about the 2006 Draft? It was three years ago. Was Michael Ryder a bust because he was drafted in 1998 but didn't play until 03-04? You can't call him a bust until he can't make the NHL. Just because someone is out of the gate faster does not mean they will have the better career, or that the draft choice was a mistake.

The other problem I have with people mentioning it is that David Fischer got sick. Timmins couldn't have predicted that. Even with the sickness, he is playing very well and is still on his way to becoming an NHL calibre defenceman. So get off it.

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04-17-2009, 03:15 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
It hit me today looking at how Andrei Kostitsyn is nowhere near the player we needed him to break out as.

Since 2003, the only first draft pick of any consequence has been Price and the 2007 famous Pacioretty/McDonagh combo. However it seems unlikely that A.Kost will ever bust out to the kind of player to the equivalents of his year (Brown/Getzlaf/Carter/Richards), nor will Chipchura/Fischer be good NHLers (or even NHLers at all).

Although Timmins has pulled rabbits out of his hat with Latendresse, S.Kost, Subban, Weber, D'Ago, Maxwell..I certainly feel that had effective first round drafting since 2002, this would be the make or break for this team.

Certainly giving up our 2008 1st round pick for Tanguay (who might bail at the end of season), will only set us back further.
You can't count out the rabbits at later rounds.

If you look at Detroit's first round picks over the last decade, the only one worth mentionning is Kronwall yet they pulled a few suprises with later round picks so it's not all about what you draft in the first but more about who you draft overall and how you develop those players.

As far as Tanguay goes, without him we probably don't make the playoffs and before talking about setbacks, we'll have to see if he signs with us after this season or not.

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Old
04-17-2009, 03:22 PM
  #64
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Its because the Habs coaching staff has a habit of rolling 4 lines all the time.
Guys like Lecav, Getzlaf etc play on teams that only roll 4 lines when they are WINNING by 2 or more. Not when they are losing 3-2 in Game 1 of the first round.

They don't get enough ice time to be effective. Imagine if Ovechkin/Crosby and co got 15mins of ice time a game. You think they'd be as good as they are now? Probably not.

If they stop rolling 4 lines constantly it would help. 3rd line players shouldn't get more then 15-17 mins a game, and 4th liners shouldn't get more then 7-9 mins a game.

How do you expect anyone to develop and become accustom to the NHL?
Ovy gets 23 mins a game
Crosby gets ~22mins
Malkin ~23...

If they were to just stop rolling 4 lines....

The drafting is fine. Its about patience. Its not about picking 1st rounders and attempting at winning a cup every damn year (cuz that won't happen often). Its about good coaching (none of this 4 rolling lines) and keeping a sustainable contender year after year.

Most players don't reach their peak/prime until they are older. Some of the best players of all time started off really slow. But more ice time, a will to win helps a ton.

Maybe Kostitsyn needs another 2 mins on the ice to actually do something. Maybe his line mates can't read him or vice versa, maybe he's just to talented for them. After last night it was visible that he was the only one that didn't shy from the hit and actually was physical.

I like him, and I wouldn't give up on him so easily. I'd ride out his contract unless a better option came along (a la Kovalchuk), until them I'm fine with him.

Now Plekanec is a different story, I think he is a decent center man but plays the position completely wrong and needs to stop being afraid. If he would smarten and toughen up a bit, he'd be a much better player.

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Old
04-17-2009, 03:33 PM
  #65
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again this ****, its akost SECOND damn season in the league, you think if he doesnt start scoring ala crosby/ovechkin right away hes a bust. There is such a thing as patience and development. It takes years. As for he other prospects, i didnt know you had a crystal ball as to already label them as 3-4 liners or busts. Just because patches and mcdo, 2 years removed from their draft year, havent established themselves in the nhl and contributed in an enormous way does it make them busts. Usually it takes more than a couple of years. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Usually it takes more than a couple of years to develop. Hope you guys get it.

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04-17-2009, 04:00 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Im so tired of people on this board that have excuses for everything.

This is the Montreal Canadiens the most succesful franchise since the start of the NHL. It thrived on excellence and the desire to win / and be the best.

Today we are consoling our management for failures in very many aspects, and despite personal preferences - we do not have the collective will power to see how far we are from the big picture.

Drafting is a CRUCIAL part of success (just ask Detroit,New Jersey,Washington,San Jose,Chicago) - had we executed properly, the Habs would be among the elite teams in the league today.

But hey shoot the messenger, because I'm not allowed to have that intense desire to see the Habs return to glory....at least I wont settle for half-measures and excuses.
You are like a teen going through mood swings. Its clear that this is a kneejerk reaction to the events that have transpired over the past couple of weeks.

You've approached this situation with full 20/20 hindsight and picked mistakes apart years after they were made. While I agree that some of the 1st round draft picks could have been better used, there are 25 teams a year who can say the same thing. I don't really know what you were getting at with the "collective willpower" statement, but to claim that the organization doesn't have a plan or agenda to which it is acting on is plain ignorant. It is very clear that Bob Gainey has a good grasp on where this team is, what he needs to do to improve it, and where we want to end up.

I am not defending Gainey for his mistakes, but you've conveniently left out the successes that has transformed this team from an abysmal pile of crap led by overaged 3rd lined NHLers, to a respectable team that won the conference last year and is annually expected to make the playoffs by most professional analysts.

It always makes me laugh when I armchair GM like yourself posts with the idea that you could, and would have done a much better job at drafting than the professional scouts themselves. Of course you do this with fulll 20/20 hindsight, but that doesn't matter right? Of course you claim this without actually being at those players junior games, draft combines and meetings. Then you name off the best 2 teams in teh league over the last 15 years, 1 team that can't stop choking, and 2 others that have had multiple high picks as examples of success overa Montreal club who has picked top 5 ONCE since Gainey has been here. And that pick ended up being your name.

Once again, I agree Gainey has made his mistakes in the 1st round, but 25 other teams did too. Overall, Gainey has improved this team vastly. They are a younger, better and improving playoff team. And for you to prance in here and act like you could have done soo much better is aggrivating to the Habs fans who have a grasp on reality.

Finally, your are bashing this team at its low point. If Markov and Lang weren't injured it'd be a different story. Get a grip.

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04-17-2009, 04:01 PM
  #67
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been sayin for years, the worst thing that ever happened to the habs was that they were never bad ENOUGH

never bad enough to draft top 10 decent players in drafts, we got lucky a couple of times, but i think we should of got 2-3 more and wed be a way more solid team

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04-17-2009, 06:20 PM
  #68
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I was actually thinking about the same thing the other day, and when you step back and look at the results, it's not unfair to say that Timmins has been only average in the 1st round.

That being said, it's still fairly early for a lot of players and nobody has a perfect record with 1st round picks. Kostitsyn has been a disapointment, but not a bust. Chipchura is 5 years out of his draft, and you'd like to see a little more progression, but 2 years in junior and 3 years in the AHL isn't unheard of. You'd really like to see him step up and win a spot next year though. Price is a starter at 21. He's got room to grow, but has incredible potential. Fischer I'm not sold on and could end up being Timmins' worst pick, but it's only 3 years since his draft, so he's got time. Pacioretty and McDonagh are very promising.

So it's always a balance between what we have and what we could have had. We got an NHL starter with franchise potential (albeit a young and inconsistent one) a decent top 6 forward. We got 2 potential top 4 dmen and a potential top 6 forward and a bottom 6 center. The potential is there for a solid core in the future.

I think Timmins' approach on the whole has been successful in restocking the prospect pool with NHL caliber players. The traits he looks for (skating and skill) are essential in succeeding in the NHL today. The issues that have plagued the team for years however, (size and toughness) continue to be areas of concern.

As far as A.Kost is concerned: I think people waiting for A.Kost to break out have to realize he has zero hockey sense. It's 6 years since his draft year, and yeah he needed time to adjust to NA, and yeah it's only his second NHL season, but the unfortunate fact remains that his hockey sense is far below average. For this reason I think he will be an above average top 6 player for his entire career. The "Marian Hossa" potential is simply not there. Like I say with regards to this pick, it wasn't a horrible pick, but it wasn't a great pick. However, considering the players drafted him, Kostitsyn and Timmins will probably receive unfair criticism.

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04-17-2009, 07:00 PM
  #69
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I don't think Montreal has drafted poorly however i don't think they have been stellar at drafting/development either. In terms of drafting and development i'd say they are middle of the pack.

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04-17-2009, 07:20 PM
  #70
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Akost is the next Kovalev. there, i said it. KEEP HIM!!!! I also don't wanna have my white jersey go to waste.

Getlzaf is a great player, no doubt, but with the right training and attitude adjustment, Kostitsyn could have a better career (or at least equal). Those two things are, however paramount to this. It's just an adjustment that needs to be made and it seems so far nobody has been able to make it. I think a full season under Bob would help.

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04-17-2009, 07:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
been sayin for years, the worst thing that ever happened to the habs was that they were never bad ENOUGH

never bad enough to draft top 10 decent players in drafts, we got lucky a couple of times, but i think we should of got 2-3 more and wed be a way more solid team
ya that's been my opinion too.

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04-17-2009, 07:28 PM
  #72
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Look at the number of ex Habs having great seasons elsewhere.
Ryder? Maybe, certainly a fair come back season but at $4M/per?

Ribiero had a decent season but a great season would have meant leading his Stars team into the playoffs and that didn't happen.

Grabovski? Did you want to keep him and his antics?

Beauchemin was out with an injury most of the season.

Hainsey didn't make much of a splash in Atlanta.

Who else? Am I forgetting someone? What other ex-Hab had a great season elsewhere?

I wonder if fans in Calgary look at Tanguay, see how well he has played here and say the same thing. Metropolit seems to have found his game with the Habs, Philly gave up on him. Schneider has worked out better here than he did for Atlanta, wonder if their fans feel as you do. Folks in Chicago probably wondered what we did to Robert Lang to get him to play so much better here than he had there. That's just sports.

Not all players that leave the Habs go on to bigger and better things. For every Mike Ribiero there's a Craig Rivet or a Jose Theodore. It's frustrating to see another team or coach get more out of a player than the Habs could, but there really aren't that many examples.

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04-17-2009, 07:49 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
been sayin for years, the worst thing that ever happened to the habs was that they were never bad ENOUGH
never bad enough to draft top 10 decent players in drafts, we got lucky a couple of times, but i think we should of got 2-3 more and wed be a way more solid team
Funny I was talking about this to a co worker today and he said the same thing.Problem is it's easier said then done in Montreal,there is always the mentality that we gotta win but every year we struggle to make the playoffs and are always an average team

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04-17-2009, 08:26 PM
  #74
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I don't think the problem is drafting, I think it's more about development. Cause in each of the years since 2001, well aside 2005 and 2006, we drafted the BPA. Even in 2001, Komi was slotted near that pick, Perezhogin I don't remember as well, but I think he was slotted as a late first rounder, early second rounder. Higgins, AK, Chip, McDonagh and Pacioretty were all 'supposed' to go near our picks.

And it's so easy to bash picks that were made years earlier...

2001 I remember I wanted Tuomo Ruutu and Matthew Spiller...
2002 I wanted Babchuk
2003 it was Getzlaf or Brown, but I was perfectly happy with AK
2004 either Chip, Korpikoski or Meszaros would have been fine, so I was happy
2005 I wanted Brule or Bourdon
2006 it was Chris Stewart (and I wanted Lucic in the 2nd round, I can't deny that, I was yelling at my TV, when I saw him picked just after Maxwell... )
2007 it was either McDonagh or Gillies, but I wanted Pacioretty, so I was ecstatic
2008 There was a bunch of players I would have loved to grab, like Nemisz, McRae, Paquette, Cormier, Livingston, Wudrick, Larson, Ullstrom... all big and physical players, but not necessarily skilled...

Anybody can make a draft, we just don't live or die by the choices...

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04-17-2009, 08:31 PM
  #75
Hannibal
Brandon Prust FTW
 
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When i think that we could have had Getzlaf, Richards, Carter or Brown.... It's atrocious....

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