HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Consistency In Playmaking

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-18-2009, 03:28 PM
  #1
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Consistency In Playmaking

A follow up to my thread, "Consistency In Goalscoring".

I tracked the leading assist collectors year after year and compiled charts of how often each player was in the top-2, top-15, top-10, top-15, and top-20 in assists.

As in the goalscoring study, I thought it would be important to take this a step further than simple "top-10s" as is usually discussed because there are some great players who came close to the top-10 numerous times and there are some sketchy players who may have made the top-10, or even top-5 twice, and never made the top-20 again. Better sample size, better results.

In total, 97 seasons of top-level pro hockey are counted. All ties are counted as they are. A five-way tie for 10th means that there are 14 players in the top-10. Of course, it means you only need one more player to round out the top-15 as well.

As I said in the goalscoring study, I also thought that it would only be prudent of me to take this study back as far as possible, rather than consider the NHL the start of hockey - it's not. From 1910 through 1926 there were two, and sometimes three top-level leagues and it would be unfair to players of the post-1926 era to consider their post-consolidation accomplishments at the same level as one who played in a half-league in, say, 1919. So I went over the leaderboards of the NHA (1910-1917), PCHA (1912-1924) and WCHL/WHL (1922-1926) and constructed a simulated consolidated top-20 playmakers list based on the actual stats of those leagues. This was not done just with raw numbers but intuitively based on what I have learned about all these early players and the telltale signs about the strengths of each of these leagues over the years. The gap by which the assist leaders of each league dominated had a lot to do with slotting subsequent players. As I said, this was done intuitively and to the best of my abilities - I'm not interested in debating the merits of the system. It was done subjectively, with objectivity in mind, if that makes any sense.

Unfortunately, unlike the goalscoring study, this one needs to commence with the 1913 NHA season because that is the first year that assists were recorded with any semblance of regularity in that league. Even still, just 10 players received assists at all, but the leaderboard, with Malone and Lalonde topping it with 5, appears quite realistic. The PCHA was recording assists right from the start but their inagural 1912 season goes to waste with no NHA stats to consolidate with.

The WHA was not included, for the same reasons described in the goalscoring study.

I'm not going to attempt to account for any "watered-down" periods of time. We're all smart people here and we can look at this list and come to our own conclusions based on it.

Charts to follow, then tidbits. Comments welcome.

(ties in charts are broken by the next-most "prestigious" column)

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:45 PM
  #2
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Elite Playmaking - most times top-2 in assists

Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
1 Gretzky 16 17 19 19 19
2 F.Boucher 7 9 10 12 13
3 Bathgate 6 9 9 12 12
4 M.Lemieux 6 9 9 10 11
5 Mikita 6 8 10 13 13
6 Esposito 6 8 9 10 10
7 F.Taylor 6 7 7 8 8
8 Orr 6 6 6 7 8
9 Oates 5 10 12 13 13
10 Beliveau 5 7 11 13 14
11 G.Howe 4 17 22 23 23
12 Lach 4 7 7 9 9
13 Cowley 4 6 8 10 10
14 Thornton 4 4 6 7 7
15 Jagr 3 7 10 10 12
16 Coffey 3 7 9 12 13
17 Lafleur 3 6 6 6 6
18 M.Bentley 3 4 5 6 6
19 Chapman 3 4 4 4 5
20 J.Primeau 3 3 5 5 6
21 Olmstead 3 3 4 7 10
22 B.Trottier 2 7 8 9 10
23 Francis 2 6 12 13 15
24 Dionne 2 6 9 11 13
25 Lindsay 2 6 8 8 8
26 Delvecchio 2 5 10 14 18
27 Clarke 2 5 9 9 10
28 D.Bentley 2 5 8 8 9
29 Nighbor 2 5 7 8 11
30 Forsberg 2 4 7 8 8
31 P.Watson 2 4 5 6 8
32 H.Richard 2 3 7 9 11
33 Gilmour 2 3 5 9 9
34 Cy Denneny 2 3 5 6 6
35 S.Harris 2 3 4 6 7
36 D.Moore 2 3 4 6 6
37 Lalonde 2 3 3 6 8
38 S.Apps Sr. 2 2 4 7 7
39 Crosby 2 2 3 3 3


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 04:22 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:48 PM
  #3
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Top-end playmaking: most times top-5 in assists

# Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
1 Gretzky 16 17 19 19 19
2 G.Howe 4 17 22 23 23
3 Oates 5 10 12 13 13
4 F.Boucher 7 9 10 12 13
5 Bathgate 6 9 9 12 12
6 M.Lemieux 6 9 9 10 11
7 Mikita 6 8 10 13 13
8 Esposito 6 8 9 10 10
9 F.Taylor 6 7 7 8 8
10 Beliveau 5 7 11 13 14
11 Lach 4 7 7 9 9
12 Jagr 3 7 10 10 12
13 Coffey 3 7 9 12 13
14 B.Trottier 2 7 8 9 10
15 Orr 6 6 6 7 8
16 Cowley 4 6 8 10 10
17 Lafleur 3 6 6 6 6
18 Francis 2 6 12 13 15
19 Dionne 2 6 9 11 13
20 Lindsay 2 6 8 8 8
21 Sakic 0 6 9 12 14
22 Abel 0 6 8 8 8
23 Delvecchio 2 5 10 14 18
24 Clarke 2 5 9 9 10
25 D.Bentley 2 5 8 8 9
26 Nighbor 2 5 7 8 11
27 Morenz 1 5 7 8 8
28 Fredrickson 1 5 6 6 7
29 B.Morris 1 5 6 6 6
30 Thornton 4 4 6 7 7
31 M.Bentley 3 4 5 6 6
32 Chapman 3 4 4 4 5
33 Forsberg 2 4 7 8 8
34 P.Watson 2 4 5 6 8
35 Pe.Stastny 1 4 7 8 8
36 MacKay 1 4 6 6 9
37 Ronty 1 4 5 5 6
38 Schmidt 1 4 4 7 8
39 Gerard 1 4 4 6 7
40 Joliat 0 4 6 7 8
41 J.Primeau 3 3 5 5 6
42 Olmstead 3 3 4 7 10
43 H.Richard 2 3 7 9 11
44 Gilmour 2 3 5 9 9
45 Cy Denneny 2 3 5 6 6
46 S.Harris 2 3 4 6 7
47 D.Moore 2 3 4 6 6
48 Lalonde 2 3 3 6 8
49 Bourque 1 3 7 10 12
50 Ho.Smith 1 3 7 9 10
51 Messier 1 3 6 9 10
52 Oatman 1 3 5 8 9
53 Kennedy 1 3 5 6 9
54 D.Savard 1 3 5 6 7
55 O'Connor 1 3 4 5 6
56 Rousseau 1 3 4 4 6
57 B.Taylor 1 3 4 4 4
58 Schriner 1 3 3 4 4
59 Bi.Cook 0 3 7 7 8
60 Ratelle 0 3 6 10 11
61 Weight 0 3 6 8 8
62 Hawerchuk 0 3 5 8 10
63 Perreault 0 3 5 8 9
64 Lidstrom 0 3 5 5 6
65 M.Savard 0 3 4 4 4
66 Pilote 0 3 3 6 9
67 Clancy 0 3 3 6 6
68 S.Apps Sr. 2 2 4 7 7
69 Crosby 2 2 3 3 3
70 Kelly 1 2 7 9 12
71 Goyette 1 2 6 8 8
72 Harvey 1 2 4 8 9
73 Recchi 1 2 4 5 7
74 Malone 1 2 4 5 6
75 Haynes 1 2 4 5 5
76 H.Cameron 1 2 4 4 5
77 Datsyuk 1 2 4 4 4
78 J.Walker 1 2 3 6 9
79 S.Cleghorn 1 2 3 5 8
80 E.Shore 1 2 3 5 8
81 Barry 1 2 3 5 6
82 H.Oliver 1 2 3 4 7
83 Co.Denneny 1 2 3 3 5
84 Pitre 1 2 3 3 4
85 A.Duncan 1 2 3 3 4
86 A.Gagne 1 2 3 3 3
87 B.Hay 1 2 2 6 6
88 J.Darragh 1 2 2 2 4
89 P.Mahovlich 1 2 2 2 2
90 Ullman 0 2 9 12 15
91 Federko 0 2 7 9 10
92 Yzerman 0 2 5 9 12
93 Noble 0 2 5 9 10
94 Bo.Hull 0 2 5 8 12
95 S.Howe 0 2 5 7 8
96 G.Hay 0 2 5 5 6
97 D.Potvin 0 2 4 6 8
98 Bodnar 0 2 4 5 7
99 Bailey 0 2 4 4 4
100 Gadsby 0 2 3 5 6
101 Thoms 0 2 3 4 5
102 Romnes 0 2 3 4 4
103 H.Sedin 0 2 3 4 4
104 Reibel 0 2 3 3 3
105 B.Richards 0 2 3 3 3
106 H.Lewis 0 2 2 3 3
107 Stumpel 0 2 2 3 3
108 D.Kerr 0 2 2 2 3
109 S.Nichol 0 2 2 2 3
110 Trapp 0 2 2 2 2
111 Cashman 0 2 2 2 2


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 04:26 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:51 PM
  #4
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Great playmaking: Most times top-10 in assists

# Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
1 G.Howe 4 17 22 23 23
2 Gretzky 16 17 19 19 19
3 Oates 5 10 12 13 13
4 Francis 2 6 12 13 15
5 Beliveau 5 7 11 13 14
6 F.Boucher 7 9 10 12 13
7 Mikita 6 8 10 13 13
8 Jagr 3 7 10 10 12
9 Delvecchio 2 5 10 14 18
10 Bathgate 6 9 9 12 12
11 M.Lemieux 6 9 9 10 11
12 Esposito 6 8 9 10 10
13 Coffey 3 7 9 12 13
14 Dionne 2 6 9 11 13
15 Clarke 2 5 9 9 10
16 Sakic 0 6 9 12 14
17 Ullman 0 2 9 12 15
18 Cowley 4 6 8 10 10
19 B.Trottier 2 7 8 9 10
20 Lindsay 2 6 8 8 8
21 D.Bentley 2 5 8 8 9
22 Abel 0 6 8 8 8
23 F.Taylor 6 7 7 8 8
24 Lach 4 7 7 9 9
25 Nighbor 2 5 7 8 11
26 Forsberg 2 4 7 8 8
27 H.Richard 2 3 7 9 11
28 Morenz 1 5 7 8 8
29 Pe.Stastny 1 4 7 8 8
30 Bourque 1 3 7 10 12
31 Ho.Smith 1 3 7 9 10
32 Kelly 1 2 7 9 12
33 Gilbert 1 1 7 7 9
34 Bi.Cook 0 3 7 7 8
35 Federko 0 2 7 9 10
36 T.Blake 0 1 7 9 9
37 Orr 6 6 6 7 8
38 Thornton 4 4 6 7 7
39 Lafleur 3 6 6 6 6
40 Fredrickson 1 5 6 6 7
41 B.Morris 1 5 6 6 6
42 MacKay 1 4 6 6 9
43 Messier 1 3 6 9 10
44 Goyette 1 2 6 8 8
45 Keats 1 1 6 7 8
46 Joliat 0 4 6 7 8
47 Ratelle 0 3 6 10 11
48 Weight 0 3 6 8 8
49 M.Bentley 3 4 5 6 6
50 J.Primeau 3 3 5 5 6
51 P.Watson 2 4 5 6 8
52 Gilmour 2 3 5 9 9
53 Cy Denneny 2 3 5 6 6
54 Ronty 1 4 5 5 6
55 Oatman 1 3 5 8 9
56 Kennedy 1 3 5 6 9
57 D.Savard 1 3 5 6 7
58 Mosienko 1 1 5 6 6
59 Hawerchuk 0 3 5 8 10
60 Perreault 0 3 5 8 9
61 Lidstrom 0 3 5 5 6
62 Yzerman 0 2 5 9 12
63 Noble 0 2 5 9 10
64 Bo.Hull 0 2 5 8 12
65 S.Howe 0 2 5 7 8
66 G.Hay 0 2 5 5 6
67 Bucyk 0 1 5 13 17
68 Leetch 0 1 5 7 7
69 Geoffrion 0 0 5 7 8
70 Chapman 3 4 4 4 5
71 Olmstead 3 3 4 7 10
72 S.Harris 2 3 4 6 7
73 D.Moore 2 3 4 6 6
74 S.Apps Sr. 2 2 4 7 7
75 Schmidt 1 4 4 7 8
76 Gerard 1 4 4 6 7
77 O'Connor 1 3 4 5 6
78 Rousseau 1 3 4 4 6
79 B.Taylor 1 3 4 4 4
80 Harvey 1 2 4 8 9
81 Recchi 1 2 4 5 7
82 Malone 1 2 4 5 6
83 Haynes 1 2 4 5 5
84 H.Cameron 1 2 4 4 5
85 Datsyuk 1 2 4 4 4
86 Bu.Cook 1 1 4 6 7
87 C.Smith 1 1 4 6 6
88 Allison 1 1 4 4 4
89 M.Savard 0 3 4 4 4
90 D.Potvin 0 2 4 6 8
91 Bodnar 0 2 4 5 7
92 Bailey 0 2 4 4 4
93 Janney 0 1 4 6 6
94 Stanfield 0 1 4 4 4
95 Selanne 0 1 4 4 4
96 M.Richard 0 0 4 10 10
97 R.Crawford 0 0 4 5 7
98 Lalonde 2 3 3 6 8
99 Crosby 2 2 3 3 3
100 Schriner 1 3 3 4 4
101 J.Walker 1 2 3 6 9
102 S.Cleghorn 1 2 3 5 8
103 E.Shore 1 2 3 5 8
104 Barry 1 2 3 5 6
105 H.Oliver 1 2 3 4 7
106 Co.Denneny 1 2 3 3 5
107 Pitre 1 2 3 3 4
108 A.Duncan 1 2 3 3 4
109 A.Gagne 1 2 3 3 3
110 G.Boucher 1 1 3 5 6
111 Pilote 0 3 3 6 9
112 Clancy 0 3 3 6 6
113 Gadsby 0 2 3 5 6
114 Thoms 0 2 3 4 5
115 Romnes 0 2 3 4 4
116 H.Sedin 0 2 3 4 4
117 Reibel 0 2 3 3 3
118 B.Richards 0 2 3 3 3
119 MacInnis 0 1 3 6 8
120 P.Thompson 0 1 3 6 7
121 Bossy 0 1 3 6 6
122 Dunderdale 0 1 3 5 6
123 B.Jackson 0 1 3 4 6
124 Weiland 0 1 3 4 5
125 Apps Jr. 0 1 3 4 5
126 Aurie 0 1 3 4 4
127 T.Anderson 0 1 3 4 4
128 L.Robinson 0 1 3 4 4
129 Le.Patrick 0 1 3 3 6
130 Himes 0 1 3 3 4
131 R.Sullivan 0 1 3 3 4
132 St.Louis 0 1 3 3 4
133 Zubov 0 1 3 3 3
134 Lindros 0 1 3 3 3
135 Mk.Naslund 0 1 3 3 3
136 F.Mahovlich 0 0 3 6 9
137 Kurri 0 0 3 6 8
138 Turgeon 0 0 3 5 7
139 E.Wiseman 0 0 3 4 6
140 Park 0 0 3 4 5
141 Stasiuk 0 0 3 4 4
142 Housley 0 0 3 3 6
143 Foyston 0 0 3 3 4
144 Ji.Ward 0 0 3 3 4
145 Carr 0 0 3 3 4
146 M.Oliver 0 0 3 3 3


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 04:28 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:53 PM
  #5
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Consistent Playmaking: Most times top-15 in assists

# Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
1 G.Howe 4 17 22 23 23
2 Gretzky 16 17 19 19 19
3 Delvecchio 2 5 10 14 18
4 Mikita 6 8 10 13 13
5 Oates 5 10 12 13 13
6 Beliveau 5 7 11 13 14
7 Francis 2 6 12 13 15
8 Bucyk 0 1 5 13 17
9 F.Boucher 7 9 10 12 13
10 Bathgate 6 9 9 12 12
11 Coffey 3 7 9 12 13
12 Sakic 0 6 9 12 14
13 Ullman 0 2 9 12 15
14 Dionne 2 6 9 11 13
15 M.Lemieux 6 9 9 10 11
16 Esposito 6 8 9 10 10
17 Cowley 4 6 8 10 10
18 Jagr 3 7 10 10 12
19 Bourque 1 3 7 10 12
20 Ratelle 0 3 6 10 11
21 M.Richard 0 0 4 10 10
22 Lach 4 7 7 9 9
23 B.Trottier 2 7 8 9 10
24 Clarke 2 5 9 9 10
25 H.Richard 2 3 7 9 11
26 Gilmour 2 3 5 9 9
27 Ho.Smith 1 3 7 9 10
28 Messier 1 3 6 9 10
29 Kelly 1 2 7 9 12
30 Federko 0 2 7 9 10
31 Yzerman 0 2 5 9 12
32 Noble 0 2 5 9 10
33 T.Blake 0 1 7 9 9
34 F.Taylor 6 7 7 8 8
35 Lindsay 2 6 8 8 8
36 D.Bentley 2 5 8 8 9
37 Nighbor 2 5 7 8 11
38 Forsberg 2 4 7 8 8
39 Morenz 1 5 7 8 8
40 Pe.Stastny 1 4 7 8 8
41 Oatman 1 3 5 8 9
42 Goyette 1 2 6 8 8
43 Harvey 1 2 4 8 9
44 Abel 0 6 8 8 8
45 Weight 0 3 6 8 8
46 Hawerchuk 0 3 5 8 10
47 Perreault 0 3 5 8 9
48 Bo.Hull 0 2 5 8 12
49 Orr 6 6 6 7 8
50 Thornton 4 4 6 7 7
51 Olmstead 3 3 4 7 10
52 S.Apps Sr. 2 2 4 7 7
53 Schmidt 1 4 4 7 8
54 Gilbert 1 1 7 7 9
55 Keats 1 1 6 7 8
56 Joliat 0 4 6 7 8
57 Bi.Cook 0 3 7 7 8
58 S.Howe 0 2 5 7 8
59 Leetch 0 1 5 7 7
60 Geoffrion 0 0 5 7 8
61 Lafleur 3 6 6 6 6
62 M.Bentley 3 4 5 6 6
63 P.Watson 2 4 5 6 8
64 Cy Denneny 2 3 5 6 6
65 S.Harris 2 3 4 6 7
66 D.Moore 2 3 4 6 6
67 Lalonde 2 3 3 6 8
68 Fredrickson 1 5 6 6 7
69 B.Morris 1 5 6 6 6
70 MacKay 1 4 6 6 9
71 Gerard 1 4 4 6 7
72 Kennedy 1 3 5 6 9
73 D.Savard 1 3 5 6 7
74 J.Walker 1 2 3 6 9
75 B.Hay 1 2 2 6 6
76 Mosienko 1 1 5 6 6
77 Bu.Cook 1 1 4 6 7
78 C.Smith 1 1 4 6 6
79 Sittler 1 1 2 6 7
80 Pilote 0 3 3 6 9
81 Clancy 0 3 3 6 6
82 D.Potvin 0 2 4 6 8
83 Janney 0 1 4 6 6
84 MacInnis 0 1 3 6 8
85 P.Thompson 0 1 3 6 7
86 Bossy 0 1 3 6 6
87 F.Mahovlich 0 0 3 6 9
88 Kurri 0 0 3 6 8
89 N.Stewart 0 0 1 6 8
90 Prentice 0 0 1 6 6
91 J.Primeau 3 3 5 5 6
92 Ronty 1 4 5 5 6
93 O'Connor 1 3 4 5 6
94 Recchi 1 2 4 5 7
95 Malone 1 2 4 5 6
96 Haynes 1 2 4 5 5
97 S.Cleghorn 1 2 3 5 8
98 E.Shore 1 2 3 5 8
99 Barry 1 2 3 5 6
100 G.Boucher 1 1 3 5 6
101 N.Colville 1 1 2 5 6
102 R.Conacher 1 1 2 5 5
103 Lidstrom 0 3 5 5 6
104 G.Hay 0 2 5 5 6
105 Bodnar 0 2 4 5 7
106 Gadsby 0 2 3 5 6
107 Dunderdale 0 1 3 5 6
108 R.Crawford 0 0 4 5 7
109 Turgeon 0 0 3 5 7
110 Siebert 0 0 2 5 5
111 Litzenberger 0 0 1 5 5
112 Keon 0 0 0 5 8
113 Chapman 3 4 4 4 5
114 Rousseau 1 3 4 4 6
115 B.Taylor 1 3 4 4 4
116 Schriner 1 3 3 4 4
117 H.Cameron 1 2 4 4 5
118 Datsyuk 1 2 4 4 4
119 H.Oliver 1 2 3 4 7
120 Allison 1 1 4 4 4
121 Nilsson 1 1 2 4 4
122 Raleigh 1 1 1 4 5
123 M.Savard 0 3 4 4 4
124 Bailey 0 2 4 4 4
125 Thoms 0 2 3 4 5
126 Romnes 0 2 3 4 4
127 H.Sedin 0 2 3 4 4
128 Stanfield 0 1 4 4 4
129 Selanne 0 1 4 4 4
130 B.Jackson 0 1 3 4 6
131 Weiland 0 1 3 4 5
132 Apps Jr. 0 1 3 4 5
133 Aurie 0 1 3 4 4
134 T.Anderson 0 1 3 4 4
135 L.Robinson 0 1 3 4 4
136 Goodfellow 0 1 2 4 5
137 Salming 0 1 2 4 5
138 N.Broten 0 1 1 4 5
139 Laprade 0 1 1 4 4
140 E.Wiseman 0 0 3 4 6
141 Park 0 0 3 4 5
142 Stasiuk 0 0 3 4 4
143 Ly.Patrick 0 0 2 4 5
144 B.Smith 0 0 2 4 4
145 Fleury 0 0 2 4 4
146 Pratt 0 0 1 4 6
147 Alfredsson 0 0 1 4 5
148 Berlinquette 0 0 1 4 4
149 Sloan 0 0 1 4 4


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 04:29 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:58 PM
  #6
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Sustained Playmaking: Most times top-20 in assists

# Name Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
1 G.Howe 4 17 22 23 23
2 Gretzky 16 17 19 19 19
3 Delvecchio 2 5 10 14 18
4 Bucyk 0 1 5 13 17
5 Francis 2 6 12 13 15
6 Ullman 0 2 9 12 15
7 Beliveau 5 7 11 13 14
8 Sakic 0 6 9 12 14
9 F.Boucher 7 9 10 12 13
10 Mikita 6 8 10 13 13
11 Oates 5 10 12 13 13
12 Coffey 3 7 9 12 13
13 Dionne 2 6 9 11 13
14 Bathgate 6 9 9 12 12
15 Jagr 3 7 10 10 12
16 Bourque 1 3 7 10 12
17 Kelly 1 2 7 9 12
18 Yzerman 0 2 5 9 12
19 Bo.Hull 0 2 5 8 12
20 M.Lemieux 6 9 9 10 11
21 Nighbor 2 5 7 8 11
22 H.Richard 2 3 7 9 11
23 Ratelle 0 3 6 10 11
24 Esposito 6 8 9 10 10
25 Cowley 4 6 8 10 10
26 Olmstead 3 3 4 7 10
27 B.Trottier 2 7 8 9 10
28 Clarke 2 5 9 9 10
29 Ho.Smith 1 3 7 9 10
30 Messier 1 3 6 9 10
31 Hawerchuk 0 3 5 8 10
32 Federko 0 2 7 9 10
33 Noble 0 2 5 9 10
34 M.Richard 0 0 4 10 10
35 Lach 4 7 7 9 9
36 D.Bentley 2 5 8 8 9
37 Gilmour 2 3 5 9 9
38 MacKay 1 4 6 6 9
39 Oatman 1 3 5 8 9
40 Kennedy 1 3 5 6 9
41 Harvey 1 2 4 8 9
42 J.Walker 1 2 3 6 9
43 Gilbert 1 1 7 7 9
44 Perreault 0 3 5 8 9
45 Pilote 0 3 3 6 9
46 T.Blake 0 1 7 9 9
47 F.Mahovlich 0 0 3 6 9
48 F.Taylor 6 7 7 8 8
49 Orr 6 6 6 7 8
50 Lindsay 2 6 8 8 8
51 Forsberg 2 4 7 8 8
52 P.Watson 2 4 5 6 8
53 Lalonde 2 3 3 6 8
54 Morenz 1 5 7 8 8
55 Pe.Stastny 1 4 7 8 8
56 Schmidt 1 4 4 7 8
57 Goyette 1 2 6 8 8
58 S.Cleghorn 1 2 3 5 8
59 E.Shore 1 2 3 5 8
60 Keats 1 1 6 7 8
61 Abel 0 6 8 8 8
62 Joliat 0 4 6 7 8
63 Weight 0 3 6 8 8
64 Bi.Cook 0 3 7 7 8
65 S.Howe 0 2 5 7 8
66 D.Potvin 0 2 4 6 8
67 MacInnis 0 1 3 6 8
68 Geoffrion 0 0 5 7 8
69 Kurri 0 0 3 6 8
70 N.Stewart 0 0 1 6 8
71 Keon 0 0 0 5 8
72 Thornton 4 4 6 7 7
73 S.Harris 2 3 4 6 7
74 S.Apps Sr. 2 2 4 7 7
75 Fredrickson 1 5 6 6 7
76 Gerard 1 4 4 6 7
77 D.Savard 1 3 5 6 7
78 Recchi 1 2 4 5 7
79 H.Oliver 1 2 3 4 7
80 Bu.Cook 1 1 4 6 7
81 Sittler 1 1 2 6 7
82 Bodnar 0 2 4 5 7
83 Leetch 0 1 5 7 7
84 P.Thompson 0 1 3 6 7
85 R.Crawford 0 0 4 5 7
86 Turgeon 0 0 3 5 7
87 Lafleur 3 6 6 6 6
88 M.Bentley 3 4 5 6 6
89 J.Primeau 3 3 5 5 6
90 Cy Denneny 2 3 5 6 6
91 D.Moore 2 3 4 6 6
92 B.Morris 1 5 6 6 6
93 Ronty 1 4 5 5 6
94 O'Connor 1 3 4 5 6
95 Rousseau 1 3 4 4 6
96 B.Hay 1 2 2 6 6
97 Malone 1 2 4 5 6
98 Barry 1 2 3 5 6
99 Mosienko 1 1 5 6 6
100 C.Smith 1 1 4 6 6
101 G.Boucher 1 1 3 5 6
102 N.Colville 1 1 2 5 6
103 McKenney 1 1 2 3 6
104 Clancy 0 3 3 6 6
105 Lidstrom 0 3 5 5 6
106 G.Hay 0 2 5 5 6
107 Gadsby 0 2 3 5 6
108 Janney 0 1 4 6 6
109 Bossy 0 1 3 6 6
110 Dunderdale 0 1 3 5 6
111 B.Jackson 0 1 3 4 6
112 Le.Patrick 0 1 3 3 6
113 Kariya 0 1 2 3 6
114 Prentice 0 0 1 6 6
115 E.Wiseman 0 0 3 4 6
116 Pratt 0 0 1 4 6
117 Housley 0 0 3 3 6
118 J.Mcdonald 0 0 1 3 6
119 Chapman 3 4 4 4 5
120 Haynes 1 2 4 5 5
121 H.Cameron 1 2 4 4 5
122 Co.Denneny 1 2 3 3 5
123 R.Conacher 1 1 2 5 5
124 Raleigh 1 1 1 4 5
125 Thoms 0 2 3 4 5
126 Weiland 0 1 3 4 5
127 Apps Jr. 0 1 3 4 5
128 Goodfellow 0 1 2 4 5
129 Salming 0 1 2 4 5
130 N.Broten 0 1 1 4 5
131 Randall 0 1 2 3 5
132 Stapleton 0 1 1 3 5
133 Siebert 0 0 2 5 5
134 Litzenberger 0 0 1 5 5
135 Park 0 0 3 4 5
136 Ly.Patrick 0 0 2 4 5
137 Alfredsson 0 0 1 4 5
138 Provost 0 0 2 3 5
139 C.Gardner 0 0 1 3 5
140 Wharram 0 0 1 3 5
141 Thomson 0 0 2 2 5
142 L.Cook 0 0 1 2 5
143 Roenick 0 0 0 2 5
144 Lysiak 0 0 0 1 5
145 B.Taylor 1 3 4 4 4
146 Schriner 1 3 3 4 4
147 Datsyuk 1 2 4 4 4
148 Pitre 1 2 3 3 4
149 A.Duncan 1 2 3 3 4
150 J.Darragh 1 2 2 2 4
151 Allison 1 1 4 4 4
152 Nilsson 1 1 2 4 4
153 Gomez 1 1 2 3 4
154 B.Hextall 1 1 1 3 4
155 B.Stanley 1 1 2 2 4
156 M.Savard 0 3 4 4 4
157 Bailey 0 2 4 4 4
158 Romnes 0 2 3 4 4
159 H.Sedin 0 2 3 4 4
160 Stanfield 0 1 4 4 4
161 Selanne 0 1 4 4 4
162 Aurie 0 1 3 4 4
163 T.Anderson 0 1 3 4 4
164 L.Robinson 0 1 3 4 4
165 Laprade 0 1 1 4 4
166 Himes 0 1 3 3 4
167 R.Sullivan 0 1 3 3 4
168 St.Louis 0 1 3 3 4
169 Bauer 0 1 2 3 4
170 Drillon 0 1 2 3 4
171 Nicholls 0 1 2 3 4
172 Rowe 0 1 1 3 4
173 J.Adams 0 1 1 3 4
174 C.Conacher 0 1 1 3 4
175 Modano 0 1 1 2 4
176 Stasiuk 0 0 3 4 4
177 B.Smith 0 0 2 4 4
178 Fleury 0 0 2 4 4
179 Berlinquette 0 0 1 4 4
180 Sloan 0 0 1 4 4
181 Foyston 0 0 3 3 4
182 Ji.Ward 0 0 3 3 4
183 Carr 0 0 3 3 4
184 Gottselig 0 0 2 3 4
185 Reay 0 0 2 3 4
186 D.Taylor 0 0 2 3 4
187 Meeking 0 0 1 3 4
188 H.Kilrea 0 0 1 3 4
189 Carveth 0 0 1 3 4
190 Lemaire 0 0 1 3 4
191 Robitaille 0 0 1 3 4
192 Sundin 0 0 1 3 4
193 P.McKenzie 0 0 0 3 4
194 Brind'Amour 0 0 0 3 4
195 Clapper 0 0 2 2 4
196 Day 0 0 1 2 4
197 Gee 0 0 1 2 4
198 Robert 0 0 1 2 4
199 L.Murphy 0 0 1 2 4
200 Armstrong 0 0 0 2 4
201 Damphousse 0 0 0 2 4
202 Gonchar 0 0 0 2 4
203 McFadden 0 0 0 1 4
204 Peirson 0 0 0 1 4
205 Middleton 0 0 0 1 4
206 C.Wilson 0 0 0 0 4


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 04:30 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 03:59 PM
  #7
Jungosi
Registered User
 
Jungosi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rendsburg / Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 881
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Jungosi
Nice work 70's

A few quick notes :

- Gretzky's dominance in this deparment is so ridiculous.

- I did not exspect to see Espo that high. I never thought of him as an elite playmaker.

- Bathgate that high is also suprising but shows how underrated he was and still is.

- Frank Boucher gets finally the respect he deserves lately. This ranking proves his greatness even more.

Jungosi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 04:14 PM
  #8
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
First off, Very nice work Seventies


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
Nice work 70's

A few quick notes :

- Gretzky's dominance in this deparment is so ridiculous.

- I did not exspect to see Espo that high. I never thought of him as an elite playmaker.

- Bathgate that high is also suprising but shows how underrated he was and still is.

- Frank Boucher gets finally the respect he deserves lately. This ranking proves his greatness even more
.
Recently, Another member asked me who I think were the top 10 playmakers of all time, and I responded with this.

Well, #1 Is obviously Gretzky

#2 Gordie Howe: A 3 time assist leader, but a 14 time top 5 assist man in his career, and a 22 time top 10 assist man. A few Others had a slightly better playmaking peak, but his sheer consistency and longevity is overwhelming against most.

#3 Mario Lemieux: A 3 time assist leader, 3 time Runner up, and 9 time top 4 assist man. Had the misfortune of playing his prime against the greatest playmaker of all time. Removing Gretzky from the equation would give Lemieux 6 assist titles. He is the only person other than Gretzky to score 90 assists more than twice(5 times), and 3 of those 90 assists came with some pretty bad linemates. He holds the second best assist per game ratio ever. 1033 assists in 915 games despite his many health/physical problems faced(He was 4th in assists in 92-93 only 6 assists from #1, despite missing 24 games to cancer).

#4A Adam Oates: A 3 time assist leader, 2 time Runner up and a 12 time top 7 playmaker. 1079 assists in 1337 games. Remove Gretzky from the equation and he is a 4 time leader. His longevity and consistency is notable to give him an argument for #3 spot, but Lemieux's peak beats the slight longevity lead.

#4B Bobby Orr:If we were judging on peak only basis, then Orr would certainly be fighting for #2/3 with Howe/Lemieux. 5 Time assist leader, once a runner up. The man was a wizard. Longevity will always be a problem in his regard though.

#6 Frank Boucher: a 3 time assist leader, 4 time runner up and 9 time top 6 assist man. A key member of the bread line with the Cook brothers. I know less of Boucher than the others, but his numbers and his legend speak for themselves. In fact, he may need to move up the list.

#7 Stan Mikita: 3 Consecutive Assist titles(A rare feat), 3 Runner ups, and 10 times in the top 8 for assists. Him and Hull did not even play on the same line!

#8 Andy Bathgate: Some may disagree with me here, but the man was incredible on a pretty bad team. 2 assist titles, 4 Runner ups and 9 times in the top 4 for assists.

#9 Jaromir Jagr: 3 time Assist leader(all in years after Lemieux retired) and top 3 six times along with 9 top 7 finishes and 10 top 9 finishes. Cannot be ignored.

#10 Joe Thornton: Strange to have him in this early. Already owns 3 consecutive assist titles(A rare feat), but even more rare, is one of 5 players ever to score 90 assists, and is one of 3 ever to score 90 assists back to back(Lemieux and Gretzky being the other 2). Other than those feats, he was Runner up in assists another year, and 3rd in yet another. Currently 2nd this season, and closing the gap to 1st fast.


Honorable Mentions:

Bill Cowley I devalue War years enough that his 3 assist titles and 8 times in the top 10 fall short)

Elmer Lach: Same as Cowley, although in all fairness, he proved himself by having some top notch assist years after 1947.

Ted Lindsay: His 2 Assist titles, 6 times in the top 4 and 8 top 10 finishes are worthy of song.

Peter Forsberg: Injuries robbed his career of what could have been.


**In retrospect here. Thornton at the time had passed Crosby and was behind Malkin for #2 this season, but ended up finishing 7th in assists. That should be enough to bump him off the list for Lach in 10th

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 04:17 PM
  #9
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,049
vCash: 500
I agree with Jungosi.

Also some of the really consistent performers stand out - Francis and Delvecchio for forwards and Coffey and Bourque for defensemen.

Adam Oates and Frank Boucher are almost carbon copies of one another in playmaking.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 06:52 PM
  #10
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,614
vCash: 500
Nice to see Eddie Oatman doing well on the lists.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 07:30 PM
  #11
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
Nice work 70's

A few quick notes :

- Gretzky's dominance in this deparment is so ridiculous.

- I did not exspect to see Espo that high. I never thought of him as an elite playmaker.

- Bathgate that high is also suprising but shows how underrated he was and still is.

- Frank Boucher gets finally the respect he deserves lately. This ranking proves his greatness even more.
Good comments & good analysis by 70's.

Gretz as expected is by far the best.

Not surprised to Espo high but also don't see him as a great playmaker. Could never figure out how he got all those assists. A lot of them were on rebounds from shots he took & dishing the puck to Orr & following him up ice.

I do remember Bathgate & howe as great playmaking RW's. kinda surprised at Bathgate getting so many assists playing his prime with Popein & Prentice.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 07:38 PM
  #12
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I do remember Bathgate & howe as great playmaking RW's. kinda surprised at Bathgate getting so many assists playing his prime with Popein & Prentice.
Did Bathgate play much with Camille Henry (maybe on the power play)? The reason I ask is that in the seasons in which Bathgate put up big numbers where Prentice wasn't a top goal scorer, the only other Ranger that was generally high the scoring charts was Henry.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 07:46 PM
  #13
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Did Bathgate play much with Camille Henry (maybe on the power play)? The reason I ask is that in the seasons in which Bathgate put up big numbers where Prentice wasn't a top goal scorer, the only other Ranger that was generally high the scoring charts was Henry.
Good point. Andy may certainly have got a lot of power play assists. His linemates Popein & Prebtice weren't big scorers. Andy would have played the point on the power play with the "Eel" prowling the slot. Andy was an exceptional player to put up those numbers with the limited support he got.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 07:49 PM
  #14
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Good point. Andy may certainly have got a lot of power play assists. His linemates Popein & Prebtice weren't big scorers. Andy would have played the point on the power play with the "Eel" prowling the slot. Andy was an exceptional player to put up those numbers with the limited support he got.
Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to take anything away from him. Scoring with the consistency he did with the teammates he had is remarkable.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 07:54 PM
  #15
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to take anything away from him. Scoring with the consistency he did with the teammates he had is remarkable.
it is kind of remarkable when you look back. Larry Popein was a first line centre for Bathgate for 6 of Andy's best seasons yet Popein didn;t put up big scoring years & has never been picked in an ATD.

Andy did comment very favorably about Popein in his "Pioneers" interview.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 08:40 PM
  #16
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,166
vCash: 500
Backhand Pass

An overlooked quality when discussing modern playmakers is the near disappearance of the backhand pass. Kept the defense honest as they could not cheat away from the backhand side. In today's hockey would make the trap easier to beat.

Howe, Beliveau, Mikita, H.Richard, Keon, Bathgate all were well above average as was Harvey.

Canadiens1958 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 08:55 PM
  #17
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,166
vCash: 500
Bill Gadsby

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Did Bathgate play much with Camille Henry (maybe on the power play)? The reason I ask is that in the seasons in which Bathgate put up big numbers where Prentice wasn't a top goal scorer, the only other Ranger that was generally high the scoring charts was Henry.
Often overlooked is the contribution made by Bill Gadsby to the Rangers offense and power play.

Camille Henry was a player who had a knack for finding open space near the net for rebounds, deflections, tip-ins. Very effective on the Rangers power play in the maid/late fifties, early sixties.

Canadiens1958 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 09:30 PM
  #18
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
Seventieslord's Random Thoughts:

- Wow, Gretzky rocks. He and Howe are tied with the most top-5 finishes - 17 in total - but Gretzky buries him 16-4 in top-2s.

- Only Howe, Delvecchio, and Bucyk have ever been top-20 as often as Gretzky was in the top-2.

- Check out Maurice Richard - ten times in the top-20... this is more than reputed playmakers Elmer Lach, Doug Benley, and Doug Gilmour. If you're a top goalscorer for a long time, you're gonna pick up some assists. Bobby Hull was top-20 twelve times.

- Look, there's Syd Howe again, placing high, but not too high, as usual. I tell you, what a balanced player. He was one of 45 players to be top-20 in goals nine times, and he's one of 71 players to be top-20 in assists eight times. How many players exceeded him on both lists? Sixteen. Gordie Howe, Alex Delvecchio, Johnny Bucyk, Norm Ullman, Stan Mikita, Marcel Dionne, Jaromir Jagr, Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Mario Lemieux, Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Ted Lindsay, Newsy Lalonde, Henri Richard, Mickey MacKay.

- The above list of sixteen names constitutes the list of the most consistent balanced offensive players ever - guys who could do both, and did it for a long time. All are in the HOH top-50 except a few. So I ask you - Are Richard, Bucyk, Ullman, and Delvecchio too low? Also, Mickey MacKay should almost certainly have a place on our top-100 list.

-Oatman indeed does very well on this list. By the loose HHOF standards of the era, I think he should be in there. He did great on the goalscoring lists, too. I like Rusty Crawford a lot but I fail to see what makes him better, and he's in the hall.

- For obvious reasons, defensemen make a much bigger impact on these lists than they did on the goalscoring lists. Most top-20s, in order? Coffey, Bourque, Kelly, Pilote, Orr, Cleghorn, Shore, Potvin, MacInnis, Gerard, Leetch, Boucher.

- Really disappointed in Pat Lafontaine. Did great in goalscoring, not so well playmaking. He is one of five players to be a top-2 playmaker one year, and never in the top-20 again. the others are Red Green, Dick Irvin, Andy blaie, and Dutch Gainor.

- Dubious discinction: Most times top-20 without ever making the top-15? Cully Wilson (4). Wilson did better in goalscoring - twice top-10, four times top-20. Tough and a clutch performer, he's underrated.

- Reg Noble is highly underrated as a playmaker. Newsy Lalonde is also known mostly as a goalscorer but clearly he could set them up, too. Jack Walker's known as a defensive player who was decent defensively, but he was actually one of the finest playmakers of his time, too.

- Mark Messier partially makes up for his poor showing in the goalscoring department, with a strong 1-3-6-9-10 in playmaking but his offensive skill is generally highly overrated.

- I don't think Phil Goyette gets the credit he truly deserves as a top-level playmaker.

- Players who never placed between 10th and 20th who placed in the top-10 a few times? Lindsay and Abel (8), Lafleur and Harris (6), Billy Taylor, Datsyuk, Allison, Marc Savard, Ace Bailey, Stanfield, and Selanne (4)

- On a per-game basis, Lindros was one of the best of his time, if not the best. But is that enough to be the surefire HHOFer and borderline top-100 player we think he is? He is 0-0-4-5-6 in goals and 0-1-3-3-3 in assists. So many more great players had so many more elite goalscoring and playmaking seasons.


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-18-2009 at 09:35 PM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 10:08 PM
  #19
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,716
vCash: 500
I was surprised at how high Ron Francis rated in the # of top-10 finishes. He seems to get the Gartner/Andreychuk treatment here sometimes as a player who was merely consistently productive over a long career, but never elite. Being behind only Howe and Gretzky is that category is revealing.

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 10:11 PM
  #20
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- On a per-game basis, Lindros was one of the best of his time, if not the best. But is that enough to be the surefire HHOFer and borderline top-100 player we think he is? He is 0-0-4-5-6 in goals and 0-1-3-3-3 in assists. So many more great players had so many more elite goalscoring and playmaking seasons.
It raises an interesting question - we put a lot of weight on what a player does during individual seasons which penalizes players who were unable to stay healthy for a full season. Now obviously a player who can't stay healthy isn't as valuable as a player who can but at the same time using a season as the measure of success biases the analysis towards players who were healthy for complete seasons but were good for a short period of time compared to players who consistently missed parts of seasons but were better for a longer period of time.

I think a perfect example is that of Gilbert Perreault versus Eric Lindros. Perreault has five seasons where he was a top-10 scorer but outside of those five seasons he wasn't a consistently elite scorer. Compare that to Lindros who only has three top-10 finishes in points but was top-10 in PPG eight times. Perreault was elite for about 400 games over 5 seasons, Lindros was elite over about 500 games (including a lockout shortened season) but because Lindros was injured almost each and every season he's taken down a notch or two even though he probably played at a high level for more games than Perreault did because his value isn't really shown in an analysis that uses 'quality seasons' as a metric.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2009, 11:25 PM
  #21
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I was surprised at how high Ron Francis rated in the # of top-10 finishes. He seems to get the Gartner/Andreychuk treatment here sometimes as a player who was merely consistently productive over a long career, but never elite. Being behind only Howe and Gretzky is that category is revealing.
It usually depends on who he is being compared to. Most people consider him a top 90-100 player, which is right around where he belongs. With his contemporaries like Oates, Gilmour, etc

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2009, 12:38 AM
  #22
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,236
vCash: 500
The guy who fed Bossy all those passes is getting shortchanged here.

Bossy, who admittedly, just like me, is biased, said on an NYI broadcast about three years back that he considers #19 among the very best playmakers ever.

Trottier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2009, 01:49 AM
  #23
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,685
vCash: 500
How do you figure? He's in elite company by just being on the top list. He's tied for 9th on the second list, 18th on the third, 22nd on the fourth, and 24th on the fifth.

It makes sense that his placement on the lists gets lower as the criteria get looser. He was one of the top-three players in the league for a while but his length of dominance, the length of time he was at least a very good player, was shorter than a lot of star players.

There are some superb playmakers ahead of him on all lists. Just how good do you think he was? I think this study makes him look amazing - just as amazing as he was.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2009, 03:23 AM
  #24
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,865
vCash: 536
I recently did some research about 90-assist seasons when Thornton's Hart win was being discussed. I think the results are somewhat relevant here, so I'll combine them with top-10 finishes in assists.

Player Number of 90-assist seasons Single season record Hart record for those seasons Top-10 assists seasons Top-10 assists ranking
Wayne Gretzky 13 163 Seven Hart Trophies 19 2
Mario Lemieux 5 114 Two Hart Trophies 9 Tied at 10
Bobby Orr 2 102 One Hart Trophy 6 Tied at 37
Adam Oates 2 97 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 12 Tied at 3
Joe Thornton 2 96 One Hart Trophy 6 Tied at 37
Doug Gilmour 1 95 Second in Hart voting for his best season 5 Tied at 49
Pat LaFontaine 1 95 Third in Hart voting for his best season 1 N/A
Peter Stastny 1 93 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 7 Tied at 23
Ron Francis 1 92 N/A 12 Tied at 3
Steve Yzerman 1 90 Third in Hart voting for his best season 5 Tied at 49
Paul Coffey 1 90 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 9 Tied at 10

And why was Francis overlooked for the Hart? Well, the Pens had the top three guys in assists, with Lemieux tying Francis for the lead. Ron was third on his team in points, which was good enough to have him fourth in the league. So despite having a great season, the spotlight shined on those two other guys in Steel City.

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2009, 10:36 AM
  #25
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlomo View Post
I recently did some research about 90-assist seasons when Thornton's Hart win was being discussed. I think the results are somewhat relevant here, so I'll combine them with top-10 finishes in assists.

Player Number of 90-assist seasons Single season record Hart record for those seasons Top-10 assists seasons Top-10 assists ranking
Wayne Gretzky 13 163 Seven Hart Trophies 19 2
Mario Lemieux 5 114 Two Hart Trophies 9 Tied at 10
Bobby Orr 2 102 One Hart Trophy 6 Tied at 37
Adam Oates 2 97 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 12 Tied at 3
Joe Thornton 2 96 One Hart Trophy 6 Tied at 37
Doug Gilmour 1 95 Second in Hart voting for his best season 5 Tied at 49
Pat LaFontaine 1 95 Third in Hart voting for his best season 1 N/A
Peter Stastny 1 93 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 7 Tied at 23
Ron Francis 1 92 N/A 12 Tied at 3
Steve Yzerman 1 90 Third in Hart voting for his best season 5 Tied at 49
Paul Coffey 1 90 Fourth in Hart voting for his best season 9 Tied at 10

And why was Francis overlooked for the Hart? Well, the Pens had the top three guys in assists, with Lemieux tying Francis for the lead. Ron was third on his team in points, which was good enough to have him fourth in the league. So despite having a great season, the spotlight shined on those two other guys in Steel City.
Francis' single season high career year WAS stacked based upon who he was playing with. It was the one year Lemieux, Jagr and Francis played a goodly amount of time with each other not only on the PP, but 5 on 5. His 2 linemates outscored him by 30-41 points each, putting up near identical assist numbers while potting 35-42 more goals each. Its no wonder he was not getting Hart consideration.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:31 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.