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Is Trevor Timmins overrated?

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Old
04-21-2009, 02:07 AM
  #1
DDs not undersized
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Is Trevor Timmins overrated?

I've always been a great defender of Trevor Timmins. I always thought he really helped the Habs to finally get good draft picks, something that was so deficient in the Réjean Houle and Serge Savard era. But today I had a good discussion about Timmins with a friend, who really think we should get rid of Timmins. It made me think a lot, and it might be true that he's overrated, especially here on HF boards.

It's true that he's good at detecting NHL level skills in young players. We have a greater rate of draft picks who are able to reach the big league since he's there.

But Timmins problem is : Since he's here, he has been totally unable to pick one single top tier talent. Just one player who would become a star. Zero. None. He always seems to pick "long shots", that guy who plays in an obscure league and who takes years to develop, instead of that obvious, pure talented player who can climb very fast into the NHL. He's good at picking valuable players in the late rounds, but so far, he has been nothing but awful in his first round draft picks.

I have nothing against Price, A. Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Fischer, McDonagh or Pacioretty, but seriously, none of them is showing any sign that they could become NHL stars. And when we looked at the players that were picked AFTER those choices, it gets worse...

In 2003 : A. Kostitsyn, an epyleptic belarussian, instead of : Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry

Still in 2003 (2nd round) : Cory Urquhart, instead of : Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Patrick O'Sullivan, David Backes

In 2004 : Kyle Chipchura, a guy with a 15 goals season in the WHL, instead of : Travis Zajac, Wojtek Wolski, Andrej Meszaros, Mike Green

In 2005, as the 5th overall choice : Carey Price instead of : Devin Setoguchi, Anze Kopitar, Marc Staal, Martin Hanzal, T.J. Oshie, Paul Stastny

In 2006 : David Fischer, a defenseman with bad stats, instead of : Claude Giroux, Simeon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, Nick Foligno, Nikolai Kulemin, Shawn Matthias

Still in 2006 (2nd round) : Ben Maxwell instead of Milan Lucic

It's too early to judge the 2007 draft, but Timmins passed on David Perron twice, and picked McDonagh and Pacioretty instead. While we are wondering if MaxPac will be more than a 3rd line player in the NHL because he's barely putting any numbers in the AHL, Perron, who grew up just one hour away from Montreal, has already 77 points in St. Louis.

When you look at this closely, you have no choice but to admit that Timmins has been far from impressive with his top picks. His job is not just to add depth in the Habs farm. He should also be able to find players who could eventually play on a first line in the NHL. He has failed so far.


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04-21-2009, 02:21 AM
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Its a fair question.

While I think Timmins has done a good job at replenishing the farm system with some talent, he may not have anything more to offer. The cupboard is stocked with much more talent now than when he first started, but like you said, he has been unable to provide the habs with that top tier talent which the fans have been sorely missing.

It could simply be a time for timmins to pass the torch to someone else who can take all the good things that timmins has done, and take it to the next level.

With all the potential changes looming in the off season, you might as well re-evaluate all the different sectors in the hockey operations department including pro and amateur scouting.


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04-21-2009, 02:28 AM
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the only draft where i believe there is room to criticize timmins is drafting a-kost.

how long have we needed a center? how long have we needed size at center?

there was jeff carter and ryan getzlaf and its not like these 2 were unknown...i will even throw mike richards in there even though he is a bit smaller.

for every other starting with price it is way to early...or in other cases i can just say hindsight is 20/20.

and for all those wanting to give up on certain youngsters...people were not happy with carter in philly..there were even rumors of him being on the trading block...now look at him this year...patience my friends...patience

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04-21-2009, 02:31 AM
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Great at drafting second-tier talent.

Yet to bring us a first-tier talent. Price could become a franchise goalie, but I mean, is it hard for a scout to draft a top level talent with the 5th overall pick?

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04-21-2009, 02:34 AM
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1. You're being more than a little cynical if you think that none of those guys show any signs of potential NHL stardom. You really think that Price doesn't even have a chance to become an upper tier goalie?
2. McDonagh's a questionable pick now?
3. You can't just expect any team to pick the perfect player every time. Complaining about 2nd rounders because Timmins didn't pick the 2 guys of 30 guys who made any impact is extremely silly.
4. What about the steals? SKost, Plekanec, Streit, Halak, etc. were all really good picks.

Quote:
is it hard for a scout to draft a top level talent with the 5th overall pick?
Yes.

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04-21-2009, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveFor25IsAlive View Post
Great at drafting second-tier talent.

Yet to bring us a first-tier talent. Price could become a franchise goalie, but I mean, is it hard for a scout to draft a top level talent with the 5th overall pick?
Thats the point, Timmins has never gotten the chance to draft from a favourable position the whole time he has been here with the exception of Price.

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04-21-2009, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
the only draft where i believe there is room to criticize timmins is drafting a-kost.

how long have we needed a center? how long have we needed size at center?

there was jeff carter and ryan getzlaf and its not like these 2 were unknown...i will even throw mike richards in there even though he is a bit smaller.

for every other starting with price it is way to early...or in other cases i can just say hindsight is 20/20.

and for all those wanting to give up on certain youngsters...people were not happy with carter in philly..there were even rumors of him being on the trading block...now look at him this year...patience my friends...patience
Are you still thinking that with patience, Urquhart, Chipchura or Fischer could become stars in the NHL??

Among all those 1st round draft picks, only Price could still turn it around and become a star.

Chip and Fischer may play in the NHL, but won't be impact players.

McDonagh? Hard to tell... Maybe a good 2 way defenseman at best, but he won't be an offensive force.

Pacioretty? NHL caliber, but he's not showing much offensive talent in the AHL...

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04-21-2009, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Thats the point, Timmins has never gotten the chance to draft from a favourable position the whole time he has been here with the exception of Price.
Not true... He also had the 10th pick in one of the deepest draft of NHL history (2003), and 2 first round picks in 2007 (12th & 22th). Those are very favourable positions IMO.

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04-21-2009, 02:43 AM
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... and how much of the blame for the lack of 1st line talent goes to the development staff? Detroit routinely picks at the bottom of the 1st round, but consistantly develops top line scorers, often with non-1st round players too. What are they teaching their kids that we aren't? Timmins isn't the AHL coach, or the minor league co-ordinator (AFAIK??)... plenty of blame to go around when you have TEAMS of people for a draft, TEAMS of people for coaching and development, etc.

Maybe Timmins should be replaced, I dunno. I'd just rather figure out what it is we aren't doing then find someone to blame.

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04-21-2009, 02:43 AM
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Stop bringing up the 2003 draft. Drafts are crapshoots, no one knows what is going to happen, ever.

Even Crosby could've turned out to be a Lindros and not a Lemieux. He still could .

They didn't address the need at center but that was 6 years ago, let it go man.

I really dislike the David Fischer pick and the David Perron snub. But that's about it.

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04-21-2009, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
how long have we needed a center? how long have we needed size at center?
As I often say... How long have we needed a talented scorer? Our centre depth wasn't bad in 2003, but our wingers were awful.

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04-21-2009, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Not true... He also had the 10th pick in one of the deepest draft of NHL history (2003), and 2 first round picks in 2007 (12th & 22th). Those are very favourable positions IMO.
We should have draft Esposito

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04-21-2009, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I've always been a great defender of Trevor Timmins. I always thought he really helped the Habs to finally get good draft picks, something that was so deficient in the Réjean Houle and Serge Savard era. But today I had a good discussion about Timmins with a friend, who really think we should get rid of Timmins. It made me think a lot, and it might be true that he's overrated, especially here on HF boards.

It's true that he's good at detecting NHL level skills in young players. We have a greater rate of draft picks who are able to reach the big league since he's there.

But Timmins problem is : Since he's here, he has been totally unable to pick one single top tier talent. Just one player who would become a star. Zero. None. He always seems to pick "long shots", that guy who plays in an obscure league and who takes years to develop, instead of that obvious, pure talented player who can climb very fast into the NHL. He's good at picking valuable players in the late rounds, but so far, he has been nothing but awful in his first round draft picks.

I have nothing against Price, A. Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Fischer, McDonagh or Pacioretty, but seriously, none of them is showing any sign that they could become NHL stars. And when we looked at the players that were picked AFTER those choices, it gets worse...

In 2003 : A. Kostitsyn, an epyleptic belarussian, instead of : Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry

Still in 2003 (2nd round) : Cory Urquhart, instead of : Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Patrick O'Sullivan, David Backes

In 2004 : Kyle Chipchura, a guy with a 15 goals season in the WHL, instead of : Travis Zajac, Wojtek Wolski, Andrej Meszaros, Mike Green

In 2005, as the 5th overall choice : Carey Price instead of : Devin Setoguchi, Anze Kopitar, Marc Staal, Martin Hanzal, T.J. Oshie, Paul Stastny

In 2006 : David Fischer, a defenseman with bad stats, instead of : Claude Giroux, Simeon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, Nick Foligno, Nikolai Kulemin, Shawn Matthias

Still in 2006 (2nd round) : Ben Maxwell instead of Milan Lucic

It's too early to judge the 2007 draft, but Timmins passed on David Perron twice, and picked McDonagh and Pacioretty instead. While we are wondering if MaxPac will be more than a 3rd line player in the NHL because he's barely putting any numbers in the AHL, Perron, who grew up just one hour away from Montreal, has already 77 points in St. Louis.

When you look at this closely, you have no choice but to admit that Timmins has been far from impressive with his top picks. His job is not just to add depth in the Habs farm. He should also be able to find players who could eventually play on a first line in the NHL. He has failed so far.
It's so easy to say that 5 years after

let's make a deal....You tell us who you want us to draft next year with our 1st and in five year I'll name all the player we should have draft instead...Okay?

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04-21-2009, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Pacioretty? NHL caliber, but he's not showing much offensive talent in the AHL...
It's his first year

Same thing goes for Kyle Turis and Jakub Voracek and Brandon Sutter. Are you saying they aren't good players??

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04-21-2009, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post

Pacioretty? NHL caliber, but he's not showing much offensive talent in the AHL...
29 points in 37 AHL games is offensive talent.

**** ignorance make me angry

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04-21-2009, 03:28 AM
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and Yes Trevor Timmins is overrated here as some people pretend all his pick are perfect but Trevor Timmins is still one of the best scout out there

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04-21-2009, 04:17 AM
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Ahh another great example of the lack of patience of Montreal fans. A young player is not a star right away so it must have been a bad pick. Some of these guys have not played in the NHL yet, hockey **** give them a chance. Price was a bad pick? Ya sure. MaxPac only a 3rd liner? Come on.

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04-21-2009, 06:20 AM
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I tought Cory Urquhart was a Savard pick.

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04-21-2009, 06:25 AM
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where we go again!!!! constant second guessing after a playoff lose...

thank god Bob and Georges don't listen to the fans/media.

we would have changed GM, captain 15 times+ traded everyone and signed everyone.
all external critiscism from people that aren't in the hockey management business. :boring:

In Bob Gainey I trust

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04-21-2009, 06:45 AM
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Fire Timmins is a bit strong...maybe other scouts and GM should have more say. Fischer over Giroux is painful, AK over Carter or Richards....etc....

Team is a mess right now. Melanson should go...Roy be given a chance. I am about 50/50 on Gainey. He is class, but too patience

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04-21-2009, 06:55 AM
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where we go again!!!! constant second guessing after a playoff lose...

thank god Bob and Georges don't listen to the fans/media.

we would have changed GM, captain 15 times+ traded everyone and signed everyone.
all external critiscism from people that aren't in the hockey management business. :boring:

In Bob Gainey I trust
I believe that if there's a constant second guessing, it has to mean that something is wrong and needs to be look at. I don't know any job where you won't have an evaluation at the end of the year and I don't know any job that is safe so I don't get how working for the Habs would be the exception to the rule.

As far as the changes that happens throughout the year, seems to me that Gainey and Co changed coaches more than the media/fans have asked them to do. So you're talking about stability while we haven't had any for 15 years. By the way, in this salary cap era, good luck finding stability. Chances are now that if you recognize that you have a shot at the cup, well take it and we'll see next year. There's no place for a plan in this NHL. You plan to ice the best mix of players together every year. But when guys are leaving your team every year 'cause the salary cap won't be as big as it was, 'cause they have a chance to be a UFA at 27 etc..., well seems to me that while stability is important, you still have to evaluate the personnel.

And results are what is important. It's one thing to make a team better than it was when you took it. It's another thing to bring it to the other level. See the Sharks. They are a great team but cannot go to this other level so who cares in the end how good in the regular season you can be. They are one of the greatest team in the regular season and then they are considered as a laughingstock....

Clearly I believe that Timmins is one of the best to recognize who will be an NHL'er. I'm not sure he can recognize who will be able to play a top role in a team. Still, we are talking about AT THIS PRESENT MOMENT. 'Cause Price, MaxPac, TheKosts, Subban, McDonagh and Maxwell, all have the ability to be a top player. And you could be able to add other names in the mix. But in 2009, nobody that he picked from the day he came on board played a role this year that's for sure. Still it could change next year. But what hurt the most is indeed seeing the role that other guys that we didn't pick are doing elsewhere.

And I do have concerns when I hear Timmins say in 2007 that we are fine at the centerman position with Lapierre, Chipchura, Aubin, Maxwell and White. I have concerns when I hear Timmins say that he didn't like Berglund's attitude when he decided not to play for a better team and decided to remain with his local team which for him was a sign of not a good attitude when the reason for the kid to do that was to help his local team to reach the highest league of his country, a sign of dedication. I have concerns about Timmins when I hear from him that he didn't like Giroux 'cause Mathieu Carle had faster feet in the Habs combine. Amongst other things.


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04-21-2009, 07:31 AM
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You can do this exact kind of "analysis" with EVERY teams drafting.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM can be made to look bad with hindsight drafting.

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04-21-2009, 07:34 AM
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reactions,reactions, reactions, WE LOVE REACTIONARY THREADS!!!!

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04-21-2009, 07:35 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I've always been a great defender of Trevor Timmins. I always thought he really helped the Habs to finally get good draft picks, something that was so deficient in the Réjean Houle and Serge Savard era. But today I had a good discussion about Timmins with a friend, who really think we should get rid of Timmins. It made me think a lot, and it might be true that he's overrated, especially here on HF boards.

It's true that he's good at detecting NHL level skills in young players. We have a greater rate of draft picks who are able to reach the big league since he's there.

But Timmins problem is : Since he's here, he has been totally unable to pick one single top tier talent. Just one player who would become a star. Zero. None. He always seems to pick "long shots", that guy who plays in an obscure league and who takes years to develop, instead of that obvious, pure talented player who can climb very fast into the NHL. He's good at picking valuable players in the late rounds, but so far, he has been nothing but awful in his first round draft picks.

I have nothing against Price, A. Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Fischer, McDonagh or Pacioretty, but seriously, none of them is showing any sign that they could become NHL stars. And when we looked at the players that were picked AFTER those choices, it gets worse...

In 2003 : A. Kostitsyn, an epyleptic belarussian, instead of : Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry

Still in 2003 (2nd round) : Cory Urquhart, instead of : Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, Patrick O'Sullivan, David Backes

In 2004 : Kyle Chipchura, a guy with a 15 goals season in the WHL, instead of : Travis Zajac, Wojtek Wolski, Andrej Meszaros, Mike Green

In 2005, as the 5th overall choice : Carey Price instead of : Devin Setoguchi, Anze Kopitar, Marc Staal, Martin Hanzal, T.J. Oshie, Paul Stastny

In 2006 : David Fischer, a defenseman with bad stats, instead of : Claude Giroux, Simeon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, Nick Foligno, Nikolai Kulemin, Shawn Matthias

Still in 2006 (2nd round) : Ben Maxwell instead of Milan Lucic

It's too early to judge the 2007 draft, but Timmins passed on David Perron twice, and picked McDonagh and Pacioretty instead. While we are wondering if MaxPac will be more than a 3rd line player in the NHL because he's barely putting any numbers in the AHL, Perron, who grew up just one hour away from Montreal, has already 77 points in St. Louis.

When you look at this closely, you have no choice but to admit that Timmins has been far from impressive with his top picks. His job is not just to add depth in the Habs farm. He should also be able to find players who could eventually play on a first line in the NHL. He has failed so far.

I agree with you on most points, especially the 2003 and 2006 first round picks. Lots of people wil say that many teams missed too all those bright prospects drafted after our pick in 2003 at number 10, but the first 9 were not bad too...

Yes, the team would be VERY different with a line of Getzlaf (or Carter), Lucic and Backes (for exemple...).

Some will say that he did better in other rounds, and that on average, 3 to 5 players per draft are playing in the NHL. I agree but we need at some points STAR players, not only guys like Lapierre, Latendresse, S.Kost or O'Byrne !

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04-21-2009, 07:38 AM
  #25
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Ever think that the problem might be player development? Or maybe the team itself? Our players show promise. Andrei showed a lot of promise last year, but he flatlined this year. He could've built on his season like Carter did. But expectations were through the roof, and this pretty much set him up for failure. How many players have thrived once they left Montreal?

It's probably not all your fault but anybody who jumps on the scouts and players just because they're not living up to unrealistic expectations is not helping. If you want a Carter, you have to let the player become one.

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