HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Is Trevor Timmins overrated?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-21-2009, 02:19 PM
  #101
CanadienErrant*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Cook Islands
Posts: 4,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCanasianfrasian View Post
you make a good point, maybe i just expect so much from him because of his obvious potential, he's fast he's got hands hes got an amazing wrist shot...i just wished he showed up everygame


Is it not a something demanded to play at NHL level ?

That is what makes most people furious about him.

He's gonna be traded and score 40-50 goals per year elsewhere. far from Mangione and his buddies.

CanadienErrant* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 06:32 PM
  #102
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,108
vCash: 500
IMO quite a few Habs regressed under Carbonneau's erratic handling. What happened to Ryder last season was a crying shame. Not only did Carbonneau ruin him for the Habs, but in effect he hand delivered him to the hated rival who's beating the stuffing out of the Habs.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 06:46 PM
  #103
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,305
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nope. Not here. You criticize your team it has to mean that you should go and cheer for another one. You criticize Timmins, it has to meant that you want him gone. A world of Black and White, no room for the grey.
It's just that it's soooo played.
Yes it sucks, we got Andrei instead of Mike Richards. That hurts. But it could be worse, we could've picked Hugh Jessiman and not have anything on our team right now.

But when you look pick for pick, almost every one of them, even in later rounds end up being an AHL player. That's pretty good for a scout to be able to do.

Then we get into the discussion of picking Perron and ********. Well, Pacioretty is a pretty good ****ing pick, so who the hell cares? We picked a guy with a different skill set who would've helped us a lot more in a play-off series like this than Perron would. Perron is talented, no doubt.. but he doesn't leave it all on the ice like Pacioretty does. We didn't see that from anyone but Higgins in this play-offs.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 07:12 PM
  #104
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,125
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
It's just that it's soooo played.
Yes it sucks, we got Andrei instead of Mike Richards. That hurts. But it could be worse, we could've picked Hugh Jessiman and not have anything on our team right now.

But when you look pick for pick, almost every one of them, even in later rounds end up being an AHL player. That's pretty good for a scout to be able to do.

Then we get into the discussion of picking Perron and ********. Well, Pacioretty is a pretty good ****ing pick, so who the hell cares? We picked a guy with a different skill set who would've helped us a lot more in a play-off series like this than Perron would. Perron is talented, no doubt.. but he doesn't leave it all on the ice like Pacioretty does. We didn't see that from anyone but Higgins in this play-offs.
As much as I am that Q lover that pisses everybody off, you didn't hear and won't hear me say anything about 2007 as far as the MaxPac pick. Those people will understand as soon as next year, at least if MaxPac is healthy which is scaring me a little. But MaxPac was a player we desperately needed. Thing is 2006 might be much much worst.

It is so played 'cause people need to realize, and actually they do realize that we have to build our team with the draft and almost solely with it. Most UFA, the great ones, will go everywhere else but here. Trades, well they don't happen a lot, especially the big ones but even in order to happen, you need some players and since we can't get UFA's, well the interesting players that we are going to be traded needs to come again with the draft. So even if the Avs sucks at drafting, even if the majority of the teams suck at drafting, they will always have to get some UFA's to compensate. Also, the weakest teams who might not have yet the luxury to attract UFA's, well they are able to tank and finish bottom 5 which almost give them a franchise player that they can build with. But we're not allowed to do that.

So not only we can get bottom 5 picks, but we can't attract UFA's either. It is pretty obvious how the draft is way more important to us than almost any other team out there. And it is obvious why every mistake especially in the 1st round (2nd and maybe 3rd depending of the year), where it should be less a crapshoot, and where most of the players succeed in the NHL, is crucial to the time it will take to build a great team.

I mean in the end, it's never about who you misjudge, who you don't pick, like it's never about who you traded. But it's all about who you pick instead, who you get in return of a trade. Who would have cared about not picking Giroux if we would have went with Berglund? Who would've cared with Perron if MaxPac would have shown maybe a little more? But the Perron paranoia is just a matter of time. Kudos to him for being an important player that soon. I mean how many 2007 picks are making an impact? It's a matter of time before we hear the praises for Pacioretty. I'm mostly a little perplexed as to McDo's development. Note that I didn't call him a bust, or anything close to that. I'm just a little dissapointed to see his up and down season and his U-20 performance.

But for most people who mostly follow the Q, well you have to understand how they see this. We go mostly with Americans, while guys from our system, are doing pretty good. Some people need also to realize that most fans don't go through tons of research as far as the draft is concerned. People can solely be aware of what's going on around them. And to see guys from the Q succeeding while we are still awaiting for our guys from all around the world, could at least raised some questions to say the least.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 04-21-2009 at 07:35 PM.
Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 09:36 PM
  #105
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,305
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As much as I am that Q lover that pisses everybody off, you didn't hear and won't hear me say anything about 2007 as far as the MaxPac pick. Those people will understand as soon as next year, at least if MaxPac is healthy which is scaring me a little. But MaxPac was a player we desperately needed. Thing is 2006 might be much much worst.

It is so played 'cause people need to realize, and actually they do realize that we have to build our team with the draft and almost solely with it. Most UFA, the great ones, will go everywhere else but here. Trades, well they don't happen a lot, especially the big ones but even in order to happen, you need some players and since we can't get UFA's, well the interesting players that we are going to be traded needs to come again with the draft. So even if the Avs sucks at drafting, even if the majority of the teams suck at drafting, they will always have to get some UFA's to compensate. Also, the weakest teams who might not have yet the luxury to attract UFA's, well they are able to tank and finish bottom 5 which almost give them a franchise player that they can build with. But we're not allowed to do that.

So not only we can get bottom 5 picks, but we can't attract UFA's either. It is pretty obvious how the draft is way more important to us than almost any other team out there. And it is obvious why every mistake especially in the 1st round (2nd and maybe 3rd depending of the year), where it should be less a crapshoot, and where most of the players succeed in the NHL, is crucial to the time it will take to build a great team.

I mean in the end, it's never about who you misjudge, who you don't pick, like it's never about who you traded. But it's all about who you pick instead, who you get in return of a trade. Who would have cared about not picking Giroux if we would have went with Berglund? Who would've cared with Perron if MaxPac would have shown maybe a little more? But the Perron paranoia is just a matter of time. Kudos to him for being an important player that soon. I mean how many 2007 picks are making an impact? It's a matter of time before we hear the praises for Pacioretty. I'm mostly a little perplexed as to McDo's development. Note that I didn't call him a bust, or anything close to that. I'm just a little dissapointed to see his up and down season and his U-20 performance.

But for most people who mostly follow the Q, well you have to understand how they see this. We go mostly with Americans, while guys from our system, are doing pretty good. Some people need also to realize that most fans don't go through tons of research as far as the draft is concerned. People can solely be aware of what's going on around them. And to see guys from the Q succeeding while we are still awaiting for our guys from all around the world, could at least raised some questions to say the least.
Obviously I'm not pinpointing you at all. I respect you a lot and I have no problems with people wanting their home-town talents on the team. I get it, I understand why but I just don't get it when it gets to the point that people don't look past whether or not their french or from Quebec. This doesn't apply to you Whitesnake. You and I both would rather Berglund than Giroux or Fischer. But like FSU Seminoles earlier on, he completely ignored the fact that MaxPac is a player we desperately needed in the system and the fact that he was a great pick. Instead he bull-headededly continued his same argument over and over again which in the end was only about language and not the needs for the team.

That's why this draft is important, we're smack dab in the middle of the first round. There's likely to be a few centers left.. Shore, Werek, Mayyybe Holland, etc. If we can grab one where we pick or move up to get one, that'd be great. But if we get Louis Leblanc because he's french, that's the wrong idea. If he's the BPA, then I'm fine with it.

I was musing, do you think Florida would say no to trading their first and a second to us for our first and Plekanec? It's obviously Plekanec won't make any team go deep in the play-offs but he would certainly help Florida at least make it.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 10:13 PM
  #106
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,201
vCash: 500
The guy cannot bring himself to draft big tough players. He has a strong desire to draft small weak finesse players and towering cowards.

This draft better change, get it right for once. Jesus no more creampuffs.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 10:24 PM
  #107
Hermamoud
Registered User
 
Hermamoud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,099
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
The guy cannot bring himself to draft big tough players. He has a strong desire to draft small weak finesse players and towering cowards.

This draft better change, get it right for once. Jesus no more creampuffs.
I think he started to draft bigger and tougher players lately. Notably Pacioretty, McDonagh, Subban, Conboy, Wyman, Quailer.

Hermamoud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2009, 10:39 PM
  #108
Habruti!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Gatineau
Posts: 1,993
vCash: 500
Drafting is not an exact science ....

Trevor Timmins's job is to take kids and bring them in the NHL, he did is work. The job of taking these guys and beinging them to the next level is a coaching job and we have not done a good job at it in the past few years.

Also we have not done a good job of evaluating the talent of the guys we have ... Just thinking that we could have Streit, Beauchemin and Hainsey in our D crop makes me sick.

Out of all the drafts you listed there is only two I would have done different... When we picked Kostsitsyn we pretty much where all divided between Getzlaf and Carter and some of us also liked Parise but most where afraid of his small size. The Center position should have beed addressed... Timmins went for the home-run instead of a double and his home-run ends up being a punt while the doubles are looking like homeruns rigth now. Yet the guy he picked is in the NHL and has two season of 20+ goals behind him. Is it that bad ... it sure is a lot better then his predecessor.

I think that BG hit the nail on the head when he mentionned that he did not understand why guys that where progressing so well in the AHL arrived here and stopped progressing (e.g. S.Kostsitsyn, Obyrne, Daggostini, etc). This is a coaching job and lets face it, Plekaneks, Higgins, Komisarek, Ribeiro, Ryder are all guys that where developed while Juline was here. It seems to me that the next generation has made it there and did not move from there.

Unfortunatly to me it means Julien was fired for the same reason BG is having a hard time (Theodore downfall in Julien's case and Price downfall in BG/Carbonneau's case).

My only hope is that we will get someone that knows how to take kids and bring them at the next level. To me the only two guys I can think of are Denis Savard or Benoit Groulx (and B.Groulx would have the nod for me if he is well surrounded),

Habruti! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 12:56 PM
  #109
montreal
Go Habs Go
 
montreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Balearic Islands
Posts: 23,297
vCash: 500
I got to shake my head on this thread. Last year, everything was going fine, Timmins while his picks aren't the best, was clearing doing a very good job when the Habs saw 20 drafted prospects appear in a game for the Habs over 3 seasons.

This year everything goes to hell and all the sudden words like overrated, bust, etc... start getting thrown around. I don't know if this occured to others, but has anyone ever seen anything like this year in any sport at any level, where almost every single young player on the team struggles.

Pleks, Higgins, Price, Kostitsyn's, O'B, Chipchura, every single one of them looked better last year imo, doesn't anyone else find that extremely odd that aside from Lapirerre, all the young players on the team have regressed this year by various degrees from last year. Perhaps there's something more to this, maybe the rumors of off ice problems have a hand in this. Either way I find it very hard to understand how all of them struggled so much this year.

Pleks had a 30 pt drop, Higgins goes from 27 goals to 12, Price looked like crap at times after looking very good after the Huet trade last year, Chipchura struggled with his callups after playing in 36 games last year with a pro rated stats of around 25 pts which for a 2nd year pro playing a defensive role would have been impressive imo, O'B I felt looked good in his 33 games and was on pace for around 18 pts over 100 pims and a +15 had he been able to keep up the production, yet this year he looked like he wouldn't cut in the ECHL at times. A.Kosty had his ups and downs especially at the end of the season, but at least in his first two seasons he's averaging 24.5 goals and 47 pts, not bad at least. And S.Kostitsyn goes from looking impressive last year to looking lost at times this year.

It's like some leafs fan has a voodoo doll with the Habs young players, cause I can't recall ever seeing a team that had 90% of it's young players all struggle at the same time.

As for Timmins, yea there are better looking picks then the ones he's made at times, but he's gotten us a lot of interesting talent. Price should be very good once he gets a few years under his belt. Subban, Weber, McDonagh add other of the '07's look very good. Fischer we'll just have to wait and see, I would put money on Giroux being a much better nhler, of well, but that's not to say that Fischer won't end up being a solid nhler for us in time. Chipchura will never be a standout like Green or others but he should be a solid nhler for us imo, granted this year casts doubts on that but he played very well in the AHL this year and looks to be doing it again in the playoffs where imo is when you are glad you have players like him.

The new guys look interesting as well, Kristo had a better season offensively then Pac/Quailer did in their rookie season in the USHL and he's going to a top program, Quailer had an impressive year and is actually big and skilled. Trunev while we don't know if we will ever see him, he's got speed and offensive skill to burn, had a better season then Perezhogin did at his age by a lot (not a great example I know but I followed Perezhogin a lot back then) and Pateryn while a ways away as well, has a nice mixture of size/skating/skills/.

People calling for Timmins head, should really stop to consider if they know what the **** they are talking about because imo he's easily one of the best assets we have, we need to work on the weaker areas first and foremost.

montreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 01:18 PM
  #110
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,108
vCash: 500
Aside from injuries, the only common denominator to the decreased production from most of the young players seems to be Carbonneau. It's frustrating to see Ryder rebounding with the Bruins after being in Carboinneau's doghouse last season.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 01:26 PM
  #111
Capitano
Registered User
 
Capitano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,274
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Aside from injuries, the only common denominator to the decreased production from most of the young players seems to be Carbonneau. It's frustrating to see Ryder rebounding with the Bruins after being in Carboinneau's doghouse last season.
Yup...we need a head coach that uses our player strengths. Don't know if a coach like that is out there though.

I suppose some people call out Timmins because of the lack of home runs. Zach Parise would look nice, so would Jeff Carter, etc. I guess some guys think "Why can't WE ever get a guy like that!" - I can relate, but overall our drafting hasn't been poor.

Capitano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 05:50 PM
  #112
DDs not undersized
Former Partisan duCH
 
DDs not undersized's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bangkok
Country: Thailand
Posts: 3,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Aside from injuries, the only common denominator to the decreased production from most of the young players seems to be Carbonneau. It's frustrating to see Ryder rebounding with the Bruins after being in Carboinneau's doghouse last season.
Well, the same young players who had an off season this year under Carbonneau, all had their best season ever last year with the same Carbo as head coach. Most of them also had a great start this year, until everything crumbled for a reason that nobody knows. I think Carbo is the easy target here, but saying it's all his fault is oversimplifying. We have to look deeper than that.

Also, I wanna say that the purpose of this thread is not to call for Timmins head. I agree he made some very good choices in the late rounds, and he's able to recognize NHL talent. But unlike what many HF Boards users think, I don't believe he's the best of the best, that he's totally untouchable and that his work shouldn't be questionned. I believe he's an average recruiter who made a lot of good picks, but also a lot of obvious mistakes.

I'm not sure if it's because he's not surrounded enough. But my belief is that he's pretty much like me when I'm picking my players for a pool. I often rather go with the "long shot" that nobody has heard about, hoping that he's the diamond in the rough and that I'll be seen as a genius, instead of taking a safe pick that everybody has seen, even if we know for sure that he's an NHL player.

DDs not undersized is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 07:09 PM
  #113
JeromeHP
@Jerome_Berube
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,580
vCash: 500
good article by Martin Leclerc of le journal de Montreal (rue frontenac)


http://ruefrontenac.com/sports/57-op...eclerc-timmins


google translation of the article
Quote:
There is a speech in Montreal in vogue by the time short, which involves déblatère against the chief recruiter of Canadian. To listen to many observers allegedly warned Trevor Timmins is an incompetent of the worst kind. A shot that takes the organization to the bottom.



"How could he select Andrei Kostitsyn in the tenth spot in 2003, while the Flyers have put his hand on Jeff Carter with the eleventh choice and that the Anaheim Ducks Ryan Getzlaf chose immediately after?" Outraged these good souls.

"How is it that Canadians chose Kyle Chipchura in the first round in 2004? New Jersey Devils have not put his hand on Travis Zajac two rows later? Timmins and why did he not choose the superb defender Mike Green, the Capitals have acquired well after Chipchura? "Adds on almost with disgust.

In the discourse of anti-Timmins, the case of Milan Lucic, the most hated man in Montreal, is a sort of icing on the cake. The Bruins chose their rugged winger to the 50th rank in 2006 while Timmins, who spoke at 49th rank, preferred lay-know Ben Maxwell.

"Thank you, Trevor Timmins," an animator rageait radio this week by telling the story of Lucic.

A difficult art

Admit that presented in this way, the Timmins file does not seem bright. The only problem is that this is the most dishonest way to evaluate the work of a chief recruiter.

There is nothing easier than to settle in his chair to read with one hand balances drafts of years spent in fantasizing about the identity of athletes that could result in a particular uniform. This is not the way it works in real life.

In fact, a careful reading of the past five NHL Entry Draft shows that Timmins is perhaps the best of his specialty.

The art of finding talented players is extremely difficult. Year after year, recruiters from the NHL arenas crisscross the globe to assess the talent of thousands of players exist in leagues that have different sizes of play.

The style of the League of the West has nothing to do with the QMJHL. The Swedish Elite League has nothing to do with American high schools and young Russians are changing expectations in a context that is light years away from the major universities in the country of Uncle Sam

And that's not all. These thousands of players are aged 17 or 18 years and they do not progress all the same. At equal talent, it is almost impossible to predict which of two players or more will develop more successfully than the other during the next decade.

The job of a recruiter is to find players capable of evolving in the NHL. That is where the exploit. For example, the Detroit Red Wings (which everyone praises yet the recruitment system) have selected only two players who have played at least one season in the NHL over the past five years. The Calgary Flames, they would have discovered that three. And recruitment of the New Jersey Devils, who look so great with the selection of Zajac, have delivered only two players to their training in five years.

It must be totally disconnected and does not know the business of hockey to claim four or five years after the fact that an employer has failed to random because one of his draft picks made potato over another. Recruiting talent is an inexact science too much for that.

A very good harvest

The best men's hockey are those who are able to convert as many selections in the NHL players. Thereafter, the Director General to use them wisely and build the value of his team.

Over the past five years, Trevor Timmins has selected no fewer than nine players who have played the equivalent of one full season in the NHL (Carey Price, Guillaume Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, Mikhail Grabovski, Mark Streit, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Ryan O'Byrne and Jaroslav Halak). If we add Dagostini Matt and Greg Stewart, who will inherit probably of regular next season, it's 11 players.

Among the 30 teams in the league, only the Phoenix Coyotes and Columbus Blue Jackets were able to capitalize on nine selections in the same period. These two training positions available, however, much more favorable than the Canadian in the repechage.

All that to say that is a bit annoying to hear people on déblatère Timmins in a city where one boasts about the hockey. It's maybe smart to try to describe all the possible culprits when the team going through a bad pass. But the problem of Canada certainly does not lie on the side of recruitment. In fact, quite the contrary

JeromeHP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 07:52 PM
  #114
Erika
Registered User
 
Erika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ville Lasalle
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,923
vCash: 500
Yes, he's overrated...

He is just a middle of the pack type of guy...


Erika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2009, 08:15 PM
  #115
JAVO16
Registered User
 
JAVO16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Obviously I'm not pinpointing you at all. I respect you a lot and I have no problems with people wanting their home-town talents on the team. I get it, I understand why but I just don't get it when it gets to the point that people don't look past whether or not their french or from Quebec. This doesn't apply to you Whitesnake. You and I both would rather Berglund than Giroux or Fischer. But like FSU Seminoles earlier on, he completely ignored the fact that MaxPac is a player we desperately needed in the system and the fact that he was a great pick. Instead he bull-headededly continued his same argument over and over again which in the end was only about language and not the needs for the team.

That's why this draft is important, we're smack dab in the middle of the first round. There's likely to be a few centers left.. Shore, Werek, Mayyybe Holland, etc. If we can grab one where we pick or move up to get one, that'd be great. But if we get Louis Leblanc because he's french, that's the wrong idea. If he's the BPA, then I'm fine with it.

I was musing, do you think Florida would say no to trading their first and a second to us for our first and Plekanec? It's obviously Plekanec won't make any team go deep in the play-offs but he would certainly help Florida at least make it.
+1 on everything except the Plekanec part. Unless he asks for crazy money this offseason, I'm ready to give him another chance. It's all well and good to stockpile draft picks, but you need players on the team, and, without Plekanec, our already poor center depth drops down to having Lapierre as your first line center if Koivu doesn't resign here( which wouldn't surprise me if we announce that we're rebuilding yet again).

JAVO16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.