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Markov screwed; not nominated for Norris

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Old
04-23-2009, 10:15 PM
  #26
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Is Green even a defenseman?

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Old
04-23-2009, 10:20 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by eightyseven View Post
LOL, I love Mike Green but he does NOT play defensively at all. He's practically a forward.

And he has really been exposed in this year's playoffs and even at least year's world championship's defensively.

The NHL gets too caught up with stats.

P.S. You do know Markov was leading our team in points for a long time. He also leads the team in ice-time and is only a -2. Quite impressive.
The award is for best defenseman, not best defensive defenseman.

So, just because he plays offensively, doesn't disqualify him from being the best.

Really though, I think there should be two awards here. The Norris for best defensive defenseman and the Orr Trophy for best offensive defenseman.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:14 PM
  #28
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Green shouldn't be there IMO...I can't imagine Souray being nominated because of his slapper. Green is very average in his own zone and would've never got those stats on a team like Montreal... but he's canadian/north american, it helps.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:38 PM
  #29
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is green even a defensemen???

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
is green even a defensemen???
You can build a team around Chara.

You can build a team around Lidstrom.

You can build a team around Markov.

.. but could you ever even think of building a team around Green?

This is plain ridiculous. Green, Souray, Streit, Gonchar.... great stats, not Norris worthy.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:46 PM
  #31
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why are there so many people trying to be funny here by saying is Green a defensemen? once is funny, twice is a chukle, but three times is just stupid, get your own joke! Sorry a little off topic....

Markov is a great defensemen, but if you look at it, Green still had an amazing plus-minus, got a ton of points, and was over a PPG... Markov had a great amount of points, but a terrible plus-minus.. If anyone should be mentioned before Markov it should be Streit who played on the worst team in the league, put up big numbers and was a plus player... Markov played on a playoff team, and therefore his plus-minus was a big factor, and was most likely the deciding element that kept him out of the top 3. If you are going to win a Norris, you have to put up numbers and have a good plus-minus, it's that simple... that's how the Norris is won plain and simple!

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:52 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
You can build a team around Chara.

You can build a team around Lidstrom.

You can build a team around Markov.

.. but could you ever even think of building a team around Green?

This is plain ridiculous. Green, Souray, Streit, Gonchar.... great stats, not Norris worthy.
If you can build a team around Markov.. you can build a team around Sourray or Gonchar... Markov and Gonchar are almost identical.. they both get most of their points on the PP, and are not overly physical but are smart defenders.. Sourray is better than both Markov and Gonchar in the physicality department and he will stand up for you team, I'd say out of Gonchar, Sourray and Markov, Sourray would be the first person I would make my Captain, and that should count for a lot (and he speaks english better which helps on most teams not named Montreal)

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Sundin is my hero View Post
why are there so many people trying to be funny here by saying is Green a defensemen? once is funny, twice is a chukle, but three times is just stupid, get your own joke! Sorry a little off topic....

Markov is a great defensemen, but if you look at it, Green still had an amazing plus-minus, got a ton of points, and was over a PPG... Markov had a great amount of points, but a terrible plus-minus.. If anyone should be mentioned before Markov it should be Streit who played on the worst team in the league, put up big numbers and was a plus player... Markov played on a playoff team, and therefore his plus-minus was a big factor, and was most likely the deciding element that kept him out of the top 3. If you are going to win a Norris, you have to put up numbers and have a good plus-minus, it's that simple... that's how the Norris is won plain and simple!

Would you build your team around Mike Green???????

The Norris trophy: best defenseman, most complete; good both defensively and offensively. It's not about stats.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:54 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=419733

Chara, Green and Lidstrom are the three finalists. I figured they would but, but I don't know if I agree with them.
Lidstrom gets an honorary nod every year, but Chara without a doubt for me.

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Old
04-24-2009, 12:45 AM
  #35
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This team was 0-8 without Markov in the lineup and was the only reason the team made the playoffs. All of this while leading the team in points and being our best defencemen playing close to 30minutes a night against the top forwards. If he isnt top three, he should be very close.

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Old
04-24-2009, 12:47 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CPrice View Post
This team was 0-8 without Markov in the lineup and was the only reason the team made the playoffs. All of this while leading the team in points and being our best defencemen playing close to 30minutes a night against the top forwards. If he isnt top three, he should be very close.
Well no

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Old
04-24-2009, 12:53 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Well no
Ok fair enough, theres other factors. What I should of said without him we wouldnt have made the playoffs.

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Old
04-24-2009, 01:12 AM
  #38
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Markov had a great year. However, if he was a player you could build a team around (like Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer, etc.), Montreal would have been great post-Lockout, which isn't necessarily the case (only 1 convincing playoff appearance and 1 100+ points season).

Furthermore, Markov +/- ratio killed him. Streit had a better ratio, yet played for the league's worst team.

Finally, Markov is easily a top-10 D, even a top-5 D on his best days, and his day will come, don't worry. But you have to realize that the 3 nominees had outstanding seasons, in different ways:

Green: point machine
Chara: is the key aspect of Boston's turnaround/leadership he brought
Lidstrom: all about steadiness/leadership and great defensive play

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Old
04-24-2009, 01:14 AM
  #39
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I wouldn't say he got screwed, but he does deserve some kind of recognition.

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Old
04-24-2009, 09:32 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimkay View Post
Markov had a great year. However, if he was a player you could build a team around (like Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer, etc.), Montreal would have been great post-Lockout, which isn't necessarily the case (only 1 convincing playoff appearance and 1 100+ points season).

Furthermore, Markov +/- ratio killed him. Streit had a better ratio, yet played for the league's worst team.
Finally, Markov is easily a top-10 D, even a top-5 D on his best days, and his day will come, don't worry. But you have to realize that the 3 nominees had outstanding seasons, in different ways:

Green: point machine
Chara: is the key aspect of Boston's turnaround/leadership he brought
Lidstrom: all about steadiness/leadership and great defensive play
Markov finished at a -2 on a team that was not very good at even strength, despite playing against the top lines EVERY game, that -2 is a testament to how good he was. Is Gorges better than Markov cause he finished a +13?? So what if Streit had a + 6, it helps that he didn't face the top lines every game

+/- is a TEAM stat, it shouldn't be counted for individuals...you could just step on the ice and collect a minus without even taking 3 strides

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Old
04-24-2009, 09:36 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Markov finished at a -2 on a team that was not very good at even strength, despite playing against the top lines EVERY game, that -2 is a testament to how good he was. Is Gorges better than Markov cause he finished a +13?? So what if Streit had a + 6, it helps that he didn't face the top lines every game

+/- is a TEAM stat, it shouldn't be counted for individuals...you could just step on the ice and collect a minus without even taking 3 strides
+/- is a flimsy stat and your arguments are solid but he's right - no player who finishes the year a minus will ever get serious Norris consideration unless there's a truly exceptional reason for it.

Also Streit plays 26-28 minutes a game so I'm pretty sure he's out there against top lines as well.

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Old
04-24-2009, 09:50 AM
  #42
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Player Team Pos GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW OT S S% TOI/G Sft/G
Lidstrom DET D 78 16 43 59 31 30 10 0 4 1 180 8.9 24:49 28.8
Markov MTL D 78 12 52 64 -2 36 7 0 3 0 165 7.3 24:37 28.2

They have almost the same stats
but Lidstrom deserve to be nominated in front of Markov...

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Old
04-24-2009, 09:52 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
+/- is a flimsy stat and your arguments are solid but he's right - no player who finishes the year a minus will ever get serious Norris consideration unless there's a truly exceptional reason for it.

Also Streit plays 26-28 minutes a game so I'm pretty sure he's out there against top lines as well.
Not sure about that...but I wasn't trying to discredit Streit, I love Streit and was one of the people who thought he should be retained, but that's been beated to death.

I'm just saying, looking at Markov -2 and discrediting him based SOLELY on that and ignoring all the other facts in his favour, is a weak argument. You can't look at +/- stat by itself.

If Lidstrom & Markov changed places this year, so would their +/-'s...

What i'm trying to say is that Markov -2, is not and indication of his ability to play defense..it's an indication of his teams ability to play at even strength.

I just find it weak...he's a -2 ...not a -22. If he hadn't been injured and somehow managed to be on the ice for 3 more goals for than against the rest of the year, he would of finished as a +1...would that make him more 'worthy' of being a Norris candidate? Would people be bringing up that stupid +/- rating then?

Come on! (not talking to you, just generally)

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Old
04-24-2009, 09:53 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Angrychair View Post
None of these guys are as important to their teams as Markov is to us. But whatever..
Uh, Chara? Do you think the Bruins would be anywhere near where they are with Dennis Wideman as their #1 defenseman?

What about Washington? Without Mike Green back there, who keys that high octane offense and powerplay? Tom Poti?

You guys need to get serious and look around the rest of the league. Andrei Markov had a fantastic season and moved into the upper echelon of NHL blueliners, but take of your bleu, blanc et rouge glasses.

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04-24-2009, 09:55 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by husamus156 View Post
Player Team Pos GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW OT S S% TOI/G Sft/G
Lidstrom DET D 78 16 43 59 31 30 10 0 4 1 180 8.9 24:49 28.8
Markov MTL D 78 12 52 64 -2 36 7 0 3 0 165 7.3 24:37 28.2

They have almost the same stats
but Lidstrom deserve to be nominated in front of Markov...
Detroit Red Wings 295 goals for and 244 goals against
Montreal Canadiens 249 goals for and 247 goals against

That's all that Lidstrom +31 vs. Markov -2 means to me

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04-24-2009, 09:56 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Markov finished at a -2. That -2 is a testament to how good he was.


How many Norris winning defenseman can you find with negative plus/minuses? How many Norris *nominees* can you find that were on the ice for more goals scored against the for?

You may not like the argument, but it's a valid one.

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04-24-2009, 09:57 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Uh, Chara? Do you think the Bruins would be anywhere near where they are with Dennis Wideman as their #1 defenseman?

What about Washington? Without Mike Green back there, who keys that high octane offense and powerplay? Tom Poti?

You guys need to get serious and look around the rest of the league. Andrei Markov had a fantastic season and moved into the upper echelon of NHL blueliners, but take of your bleu, blanc et rouge glasses.
Agreed about Chara and Green...and I've personally got no problem with the nominees this year, I think they're all deserved. But i'm sick of reading that Markov's +/- rating is why he shouldn't be considered.

Markov wasn't nominated because he doesn't have the same 'name value' as guys like Chara, Green or Lidstrom...plain and simple.

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Old
04-24-2009, 10:00 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post


How many Norris winning defenseman can you find with negative plus/minuses? How many Norris *nominees* can you find that were on the ice for more goals scored against the for?

Get serious.
You're totally misundertanding what I meant by that...although I probably didn't word it correctly.

I'm just saying...given the opposition he faces every game, his role on the team, the Habs ability to score at even strength, his +/- this year really isn't that bad.

It could of been much worse and most of it due to a bad stretch in the season where he collected quite a few minuses but at that time, the whole team was playing awful.

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Old
04-24-2009, 10:03 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post


How many Norris winning defenseman can you find with negative plus/minuses? How many Norris *nominees* can you find that were on the ice for more goals scored against the for?

You may not like the argument, but it's a valid one.
So what? Because the NHL decided to attribute, what I think is a team stat, to individuals, it makes it a valid argument?

Look...i'm not saying Markov deserves to be there instead of any of the names that are there. But I do have a problem with people saying he shouldn't be nominated based SOLELY on that stat which I find near useless when judged on it's own.

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Old
04-24-2009, 10:17 AM
  #50
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Markov didn't deserve a nomination over those 3. I don't know what the big deal is. He was very good but not dominant good.

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