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Would you trade for J. Thornton?

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Old
04-26-2009, 09:49 AM
  #101
le_sean
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Stats seem no better than Kosto's, and he plays the wrong wing. We already have Tanguay, Higgins, Latendresse and Pacioretty on LW.
Higgins can go to the Islanders for someone like Trent Hunter who the Habs really need. I doubt Snow/Wang are stupid enough though.

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04-26-2009, 10:12 AM
  #102
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Interesting stat in the most recent Hockey News. Top playoff scorers since the lockout:

#11: Joe Thornton, 30 points in 35 games

I was thrilled when the Bruins traded Joe to the west coast. Thornton always presented major match-up problems for the Canadiens with his size and skill. I would absolutely trade for Joe Thornton over Vinny Lecavalier when you take their contracts into consideration. Vinny has that 10 year deal kicking in, while Joe's contract is long enough so that you do not have to worry about losing him in a year or two, while not so long that you have to worry about possible injuries or decline in production.

In regards to trading Christopher Higgins for Trent Hunter, why? How is it that Hunter represents an upgrade over Higgins? In another thread, people want to bring back Steve Begin, mostly it seems, because he loves the Canadiens. Why would we want to trade a guy who was raised as a Canadiens fan for Trent Hunter?

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04-26-2009, 10:39 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Higgins can go to the Islanders for someone like Trent Hunter who the Habs really need. I doubt Snow/Wang are stupid enough though.


Hunter is three years older, yet has two fewer seasons with over 20 goals than Higgins.

Hunter's best year was 5 years ago, before the lockout.

Higgins' best year was last year.

Averages per 82-game season:
Hunter 19-23=42
Higgins 24-20=44

Higgins is a better goal scorer, a better point-getter, a better skater, and younger. He can play both a shutdown and counterattack role. Kills penalties too. Let's please not underestimate him!

And you diss Snow as stupid??

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04-26-2009, 10:54 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Hunter is three years older, yet has two fewer seasons with over 20 goals than Higgins.

Hunter's best year was 5 years ago, before the lockout.

Higgins' best year was last year.

Averages per 82-game season:
Hunter 19-23=42
Higgins 24-20=44

Higgins is a better goal scorer, a better point-getter, a better skater, and younger. He can play both a shutdown and counterattack role. Kills penalties too. Let's please not underestimate him!

And you diss Snow as stupid??
Okay but Hunter brings something this team desperately needs, a power presence. He had 135 hits this year even though he just played 55 games. He also had a higher PPG ratio than Higgins. Hunter is also signed for only $2 million a year until 2013/14.

Yeah it would be stupid for Snow to get rid of him.

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04-26-2009, 10:58 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MoMo316 View Post
I want Travis Moen.
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Especially if we don't re-sign Kostopolous... Moen will probably command a bit of a premium based on his rep, but he'd upgrade that role very nicely.
I'd rather go after Chris Neil for that 3rd-4th line role.

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Old
04-26-2009, 11:01 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Okay but Hunter brings something this team desperately needs, a power presence. He had 135 hits this year even though he just played 55 games. He also had a higher PPG ratio than Higgins. Hunter is also signed for only $2 million a year until 2013/14.

Yeah it would be stupid for Snow to get rid of him.
I did the math for you. Hunter has a LOWER ppg average than Higgins.

Anyway, I'm not against acquiring Hunter. I'm only against giving Higgins up for him one-for-one.

You seem to imply that trading someone is "getting rid of him". Well, ok, I'll do it your way: I don't want to get rid of a valuable player like Chris Higgins.

How about the Kostitsyn brothers for Hunter and Streit?

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04-26-2009, 01:59 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I'd rather go after Chris Neil for that 3rd-4th line role.
According to all the Ottawa fans that live and work around me, Neil is not a useful hockey player. They've wanted him to be traded all year and can't wait to see him off the team.

I will be very ticked if the Habs sign this overrated, glorified goon. He would serve no useful purpose on the Canadiens and cost too much doing it.

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04-26-2009, 02:01 PM
  #108
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Let's not trade Higgins due to one bad season. He may not be a potential 40-goal scorer, but I wouldn't be entirely shocked to see him pot 30 someday -- and in any case he is a very useful two-way second-to-third line forward.

We shouldn't give up on him due to one bad season, and we certainly shouldn't give up on him due to some "I don't care about expectations" comments like one wag in la Presse suggests.

He might be a valuable trading chip, but let's treat him as just that -- valuable.

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04-26-2009, 02:01 PM
  #109
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Hell Yeah.

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Old
04-26-2009, 02:13 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
According to all the Ottawa fans that live and work around me, Neil is not a useful hockey player. They've wanted him to be traded all year and can't wait to see him off the team.

I will be very ticked if the Habs sign this overrated, glorified goon. He would serve no useful purpose on the Canadiens and cost too much doing it.
In all due respect to your "friends", not every fan can agree on everything about the players on their team, as often demonstrated in this very section. So I'll stick with what I've seen of him in his career thus far if that's okay.

We have a team lacking skills and grit and although he brings more grit than skills, he still has more skills than many of our 3rd-4th liners, therefore improving our team. As a matter of fact, I'd love to see him to the right of Latendresse and Lapierre!

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04-26-2009, 02:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
In all due respect to your "friends", not every fan can agree on everything about the players on their team, as often demonstrated in this very section. So I'll stick with what I've seen of him in his career thus far if that's okay.

We have a team lacking skills and grit and although he brings more grit than skills, he still has more skills than many of our 3rd-4th liners, therefore improving our team.
I think the concern with Neil is that he may be headed towards a very steep decline. His style of play doesn't usually lend itself to a very long and productive career.

From 2001-02 to 2007-2008 he was pretty much the prototype for a rugged player with skill. Everyone was looking for the "next Chris Neil." I think the first thread I started on HF boards was during the lockout asking about how we should go after Chris Neil. For the first three years after the lockout he was a player every team wanted.

So any GM has to ask himself whether 08-09 was the beginning of the inevitable decline or whether it was just an off year. Unfortunately over the past two seasons his fight skills seem to have diminished and 25+ point projections seem more hopeful than realistic.

I still believe that the "Chris Neil type" is exactly what this team needs, I'm just not convinced Chris Neil is still the same player he was 4 years ago.

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Old
04-26-2009, 02:22 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
I think the concern with Neil is that he may be headed towards a very steep decline. His style of play doesn't usually lend itself to a very long and productive career.

From 2001-02 to 2007-2008 he was pretty much the prototype for a rugged player with skill. Everyone was looking for the "next Chris Neil." I think the first thread I started on HF boards was during the lockout asking about how we should go after Chris Neil. For the first three years after the lockout he was a player every team wanted.

So any GM has to ask himself whether 08-09 was the beginning of the inevitable decline or whether it was just an off year. Unfortunately over the past two seasons his fight skills seem to have diminished and 25+ point projections seem more hopeful than realistic.

I still believe that the "Chris Neil type" is exactly what this team needs, I'm just not convinced Chris Neil is still the same player he was 4 years ago.
I dare say that he's exactly what this team needs, but I wouldn't get into a betting war to get him. At the right price, in the right term (2-3 years), I'd definitely go for him.

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04-26-2009, 02:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
In all due respect to your "friends", not every fan can agree on everything about the players on their team, as often demonstrated in this very section. So I'll stick with what I've seen of him in his career thus far if that's okay.
What I've seen of his career lately isn't impressive, either. I don't believe he's a useful hockey player. In fact I think the can be detrimental to his team.

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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
We have a team lacking skills and grit and although he brings more grit than skills, he still has more skills than many of our 3rd-4th liners, therefore improving our team.
No, he really doesn't. He's a glorified goon. He had one good year during the Sens' heyday (and by "good", we mean "a bit over 30 points"), and people are blinded by that and miscast him as something he's not.

He hasn't scored ten goals over the last TWO seasons combined. He's a liability on the ice these days.

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As a matter of fact, I'd love to see him to the right of Latendresse and Lapierre!
He'd kill their effectiveness with his ineptitude. If you thought Tom Kostopoulos would waste chances...

He's not capable of providing anything that Laraque doesn't.

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Old
04-26-2009, 03:04 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I dare say that he's exactly what this team needs, but I wouldn't get into a betting war to get him. At the right price, in the right term (2-3 years), I'd definitely go for him.
Like I said, you have to be prepared for a serious decline. Instead of 25 points and winning the majority of his 25 fights, I'd be more prepared for 10 points and losing the majority of 15 fights. Chris Neil is no longer the best guy of his type available, so I wouldn't get too focused on acquiring him. Based on his recent play, I would in fact be somewhat weary of what he can bring in the future.

There are also a ton of RFAs who fit the bill. If teams are looking to shed some salary, maybe some of them will be available.

Travis Moen
Chris Thorburn (RFA)
Ben Eager (RFA)
Troy Brower (RFA)
Cody McCormick (RFA)
Cody McLeod (RFA)
Ian Lapperriere
Mike Rupp
Brad Winchester (RFA)
Rick Rypien

I'm sure there are even more guys who might be available via trade. Chris Neil 4 years ago would have been a no brainer. Today I think you have to be very cautious with your expectations.

There are also some guys who don't fight a ton, but bring some energy and sandpaper to the lineup.

Kyle Brodziak (RFA)
Liam Reddox (RFA)
Chad LaRose

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Old
04-26-2009, 03:58 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
Trumps?

I'd take those Lecavalier 06-07 and 07-08 seasons stats over Thornton every single day... 10 less pts in 2 years, but 41 more goals??? please... It's advantage Lecavalier VERY easily imo.

You got a point for the 08-09 season but then again... a bottom feeder versus the top team (and no it's not only because they have Thornton that they are on top...), the year after Lecavalier had a shoulder surgery (and he probably should not have play before christmas time this year...)

As for the 10M$ cap hit. The average count toward the cap, so Lecavalier will never be a 10M cap hit, so who cares if he cost 10M... As for costing a lot on the cap in 8-9 years... who cares again? At that point, most of his contract would have been paid so buying him out would cost a minimum.
______________________

Now if you are telling me we could get Thornton for cheap... then Yes, go for it. You could always try him there and switch him for another top forward later on anyways, it's much easier to land top players when you got some on your team also.

Lecavalier over Thornton every single time. I said so 5 years ago and nothing in the past 5 years made me though otherwise.
You know, I could use your logic for who is better too, just for Thornton, observe.

How is this "easy advantage Lecavalier" when it essentially boils down to two things, Vinny is a goal scorer and Joe creates goal scorers.

Who cares? So what happens in five years when Lecavalier is 34 and possibly declining, yet we are stuck paying him ten million a season, a $7.7m cap it? Oh right, we suffer a Tampa Bay season because we cannot afford to strengthen our other needs; even better if the salary cap drops below $50 million as is believed - I personally do not see it myself - explain to me how exactly we balance Vincent Lecavalier's contract?

In the case of Joe, he is gone after three years, Vinny we have for eleven.

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Vinny wont be paid 10M$ at 36. Vinny is a better hiter? That's his main feature over Joe? You should watch both play the game, it would become obvious why Vinny is a way better player.
I have watched them play, numerous times and I find Joe Thornton better overall, however both are talented, just in different areas.

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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
If San Jose would take Plekanec and the Kostitsyn brothers for Thornton, we could do the following:

Assuming Saku really does want to return, sign Koivu, Kovalev and Tanguay (all should come at some discounts compared to this year). Play them together. They were GREAT together just a few weeks ago.

Put Thornton with d'Agostini (40-45 goals here we come) and Pacioretty (fast, digs the puck out of corners).

Keep the EXCELLENT shutdown line of Metropolit, Dandenault and Higgins.

Give plenty of ice time to the "fourth" line of Lapierre, Latendresse and Kostopoulos.

Let Komisarek, Schneider, Lang, Bouillon, Brisebois go. You have about $12M to spend. Try to land both Bouwmeester and Beauchemin and keep about $1.5M spare.

Up front, we get two big scoring lines. If the other team keys on Thornton's line, the Kovalev line will light up the lamps. If the opponents put their best guys on our vets, Thornton and d'Agostini will go to town.
Precise reason why I would want Joe over Vinny. Have him centre the kid line, be it the line you suggested or perhaps give Latendresse; who has admittedly improved, a shot, and watch them light up the lamp, taking passes from the assist machine. This would help develop them immensely for when/if Joe is traded or leaves the team. Sure they might not pop 40 goals without a guy like Thornton however the experience they have because of him would stay with them for years.

It could be possible although I suspect a high tier prospect and/or a first would be required, especially after the awful season the brothers came off. It might be better to keep Plekanec and doable because he regressed so badly.


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Old
04-26-2009, 05:03 PM
  #116
le_sean
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I did the math for you. Hunter has a LOWER ppg average than Higgins.

Anyway, I'm not against acquiring Hunter. I'm only against giving Higgins up for him one-for-one.

You seem to imply that trading someone is "getting rid of him". Well, ok, I'll do it your way: I don't want to get rid of a valuable player like Chris Higgins.

How about the Kostitsyn brothers for Hunter and Streit?
I meant his PPG was better this past season.

I wouldn't want to give up on Higgins either, but the philosophy of the team needs to change and you need to give to get. Guys like Hunter, Moen, and Colby Armstrong would really change the face of the team. That's just me though.

A guy like Hunter would really help Tanguay and Koivu out, doing the dirty work for them and driving the net. A guy like Higgins is nice to have, but who does he compliment out there? He looked great on the 4th line, but he's not a player you want to give limited icetime to for the entire season. At the same time he's not a player you want to give too much icetime to. Kind of a complex situation.

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04-26-2009, 05:12 PM
  #117
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I guess I'll be the one to say no. To succeed in the playoffs your most talented players have to be your best players and Thortnon just doesn't do it.
He hasn't done it but that doesn't mean he couldn't in the future.

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04-26-2009, 05:45 PM
  #118
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He hasn't done it but that doesn't mean he couldn't in the future.
Well when he hasn't done it in the 7 seasons he's had the chance to, it's a little glum.

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04-26-2009, 06:31 PM
  #119
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i would if we could transplant Koivus heart into Thornton...otherwise NO

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04-26-2009, 06:59 PM
  #120
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Well when he hasn't done it in the 7 seasons he's had the chance to, it's a little glum.
I agree.

But he is a legit superstar and let's face it, they're hard to come by these days.

He wouldn't be my first choice but I'd grab him if he were available. If nothing else, he'd absorb all the checking that some other guys otherwise would've received.

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04-26-2009, 07:34 PM
  #121
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Yes, I would trade for Joe Thornton. He is a very good player and he would make the team better.

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