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What's Next for Griffin...

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Old
04-29-2009, 09:56 AM
  #26
dank
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
As a guy that would rather watch the best of Damien Maia than the best of Chuck Liddell I respectfully disagree. Silva is marketed as the top p4p guy in MMA. In my opinion you cannot be a top p4p guy unless you threaten to finish all your fights no matter the opponent.

GSP wrestled Matt Hughes and showed no fear going into BJ's guard. Fedor beat the hell out of Nogueria in Nogueria's guard when everyone thought it was the best in the HW division. Then he stood with Cro Cop when Mirko was arguably the most dangerous striker in the world.

Anderson disrespected the fans in his last fight. His striking was without a doubt a great technical display, but if you can punch your opponent in the leg you can punch him in the liver. He's a great talent and it would not surprise me if he retired without another loss. However he dropped down a couple notches in my book when he started dancing instead of taking a shot that he clearly had if he wanted it.
hmm, a very cogent argument..

i like this forum cuz you can actually agree with other teams' fans on something.. haha

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04-29-2009, 10:00 AM
  #27
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hmm, a very cogent argument..

i like this forum cuz you can actually agree with other teams' fans on something.. haha
Gomez is overpaid and Redden sux!

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04-29-2009, 10:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
As a guy that would rather watch the best of Damien Maia than the best of Chuck Liddell I respectfully disagree. Silva is marketed as the top p4p guy in MMA. In my opinion you cannot be a top p4p guy unless you threaten to finish all your fights no matter the opponent.

GSP wrestled Matt Hughes and showed no fear going into BJ's guard. Fedor beat the hell out of Nogueria in Nogueria's guard when everyone thought it was the best in the HW division. Then he stood with Cro Cop when Mirko was arguably the most dangerous striker in the world.

Anderson disrespected the fans in his last fight. His striking was without a doubt a great technical display, but if you can punch your opponent in the leg you can punch him in the liver. He's a great talent and it would not surprise me if he retired without another loss. However he dropped down a couple notches in my book when he started dancing instead of taking a shot that he clearly had if he wanted it.
So just because some people want to call him the best p4p fighter, he's supposed to willingly put himself in danger just so those people are proven right?

That makes no sense at all.

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04-29-2009, 10:59 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Pure Rock Fury View Post
So just because some people want to call him the best p4p fighter, he's supposed to willingly put himself in danger just so those people are proven right?

That makes no sense at all.
No he should not put himself in extra danger. My argument is he punched Leites in the thigh and thus could have attempted to punch him in the liver with equal or lessor danger. He chose to showboat and dance instead.

The p4p comments related to why people, myself included, have a right to be upset seeing that fight as a main event. It was a technically sound logical fight, but it was not exciting. In the Silva Cote fight it was a battle of feints and angles; that was exciting. This was a boring fight because Anderson did not try to engage even when it would cause no more danger than the strategy we saw.

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04-29-2009, 11:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
No he should not put himself in extra danger. My argument is he punched Leites in the thigh and thus could have attempted to punch him in the liver with equal or lessor danger. He chose to showboat and dance instead.

The p4p comments related to why people, myself included, have a right to be upset seeing that fight as a main event. It was a technically sound logical fight, but it was not exciting. In the Silva Cote fight it was a battle of feints and angles; that was exciting. This was a boring fight because Anderson did not try to engage even when it would cause no more danger than the strategy we saw.
Again, why should he be penalized because people OTHER THAN HIMSELF call him the top p4p fighter?

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04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pure Rock Fury View Post
Again, why should he be penalized because people OTHER THAN HIMSELF call him the top p4p fighter?
Because he obviously agrees. All it would take is for him to say is "I think Fighter X nowhere near my weight/that I train with and therefore will not fight is the top p4p fighter." The guy called out Roy Jones when to my knowledge his only boxing experience is getting knocked around by some no name Brazilian tomato can! He friggen called out Fedor for a catch weight at 220!

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04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
  #32
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Good points Sideline.

Here's something to consider: most people who train with Griffin say he walks around at 230-240lbs, right? This is a pretty big size advantage. I'm not a Griffin fan by any standard, and I still think he lost to Rampage, but I think he's got a better shot than most people want to acknowledge. If he can stay away from getting reckless and avoid Silva's powershots, I see no reason why he can't turn this into a ground fight, where he has a better shot of pulling out a win--especially in a 3 round fight.

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04-29-2009, 11:52 AM
  #33
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Good points Sideline.

Here's something to consider: most people who train with Griffin say he walks around at 230-240lbs, right? This is a pretty big size advantage. I'm not a Griffin fan by any standard, and I still think he lost to Rampage, but I think he's got a better shot than most people want to acknowledge. If he can stay away from getting reckless and avoid Silva's powershots, I see no reason why he can't turn this into a ground fight, where he has a better shot of pulling out a win--especially in a 3 round fight.
Silva's body triangle guard would be even more successful against a a larger fighter. Those things are damn near impossible to pass unless you're small enough to slip through or have Rampage type strength.

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04-29-2009, 11:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
As a guy that would rather watch the best of Damien Maia than the best of Chuck Liddell I respectfully disagree. Silva is marketed as the top p4p guy in MMA. In my opinion you cannot be a top p4p guy unless you threaten to finish all your fights no matter the opponent.

GSP wrestled Matt Hughes and showed no fear going into BJ's guard. Fedor beat the hell out of Nogueria in Nogueria's guard when everyone thought it was the best in the HW division. Then he stood with Cro Cop when Mirko was arguably the most dangerous striker in the world.

Anderson disrespected the fans in his last fight. His striking was without a doubt a great technical display, but if you can punch your opponent in the leg you can punch him in the liver. He's a great talent and it would not surprise me if he retired without another loss. However he dropped down a couple notches in my book when he started dancing instead of taking a shot that he clearly had if he wanted it.
All good points, very fair. However, being there in person for that fight I can testify that the majority of the boobirds we're coming from people who were simply blood thirsty. Yeah there was some legit fans who weren't happy, but there was FAR more newb's who were getting very carried away. Christ, 1/2 them didn't even really know who Shogun was....

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04-29-2009, 12:12 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
No he should not put himself in extra danger. My argument is he punched Leites in the thigh and thus could have attempted to punch him in the liver with equal or lessor danger. He chose to showboat and dance instead.

The p4p comments related to why people, myself included, have a right to be upset seeing that fight as a main event. It was a technically sound logical fight, but it was not exciting. In the Silva Cote fight it was a battle of feints and angles; that was exciting. This was a boring fight because Anderson did not try to engage even when it would cause no more danger than the strategy we saw.
That's kind of my point. How do you engage a guy lying on the ground waiting to kick you in the jaw if you come within range? The embarrassing display, to me, was the fighter who kept rolling on his back in a defensive position to avoid being engaged, not the guy who remained on his feet waiting for a fight to break out.

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04-29-2009, 12:15 PM
  #36
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All good points, very fair. However, being there in person for that fight I can testify that the majority of the boobirds we're coming from people who were simply blood thirsty. Yeah there was some legit fans who weren't happy, but there was FAR more newb's who were getting very carried away. Christ, 1/2 them didn't even really know who Shogun was....
Shogun is up there with Gomi and old school Wanderlei for me. The dude is made of badass.

In fairness to Anderson Pride rules would have let him end the fight pretty quick. It would have looked something like this:

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04-29-2009, 12:43 PM
  #37
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That's kind of my point. How do you engage a guy lying on the ground waiting to kick you in the jaw if you come within range? The embarrassing display, to me, was the fighter who kept rolling on his back in a defensive position to avoid being engaged, not the guy who remained on his feet waiting for a fight to break out.
Kick the legs of the guy butt scooting. Silva has the speed and length to do that with minimal risk. You might even get lucky and have him try for an up kick that isn't there then you can go straight to side control if you want.

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04-29-2009, 12:47 PM
  #38
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That's kind of my point. How do you engage a guy lying on the ground waiting to kick you in the jaw if you come within range? The embarrassing display, to me, was the fighter who kept rolling on his back in a defensive position to avoid being engaged, not the guy who remained on his feet waiting for a fight to break out.
A lot of it is perception I think. In his first 7 UFC fights Anderson starched everybody, including top-5 fighters like Franklin (twice), Marquardt and Dan Henderson. Leites is a cut below those guys so when you see Anderson go a full 25 minutes with him and really, not do anywhere near as much damage as he did in those fights, it comes off as a disappointing fight for him. Meanwhile Leites is a serious underdog fighting the best guy in the world, so when he flops to his butt and stuff to avoid getting killed it comes off more like a guy just doing his best to survive.

Both deserve blame but even taking Leites' passive tactics into account, Anderson really did very little to try to finish that fight. By the later rounds Leites was tired and frustrated and Anderson did almost nothing to turn it up on him, instead electing to pull goofy **** like punching his thigh and whatever that backwards heel kick at Leites' ankle was. The fight reminded me a lot of Tim Sylvia's awful title defense against Jeff Monson (UFC 65-ish or so I think) where the champ clearly outclasses his challenger but elects to play it safe in the later rounds rather than go for the kill. Sylvia got tons of **** for that fight so I don't know why Anderson shouldn't expect the same.

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04-29-2009, 12:49 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Kick the legs of the guy butt scooting.
He was doing that.

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04-29-2009, 12:55 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
That's kind of my point. How do you engage a guy lying on the ground waiting to kick you in the jaw if you come within range? The embarrassing display, to me, was the fighter who kept rolling on his back in a defensive position to avoid being engaged, not the guy who remained on his feet waiting for a fight to break out.
"I second that emotion." - Smokey Robinson

It's Anderson Silva's job to win. He went out and did his job. He won. In completely dominant fashion no less, with a 50-45 score (if I recall correctly, and without a scratch). It's not his job to satisfy the rednecks that want to see a Brett Rogers slugfest.

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04-29-2009, 01:04 PM
  #41
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Good points Sideline.

Here's something to consider: most people who train with Griffin say he walks around at 230-240lbs, right? This is a pretty big size advantage. I'm not a Griffin fan by any standard, and I still think he lost to Rampage, but I think he's got a better shot than most people want to acknowledge. If he can stay away from getting reckless and avoid Silva's powershots, I see no reason why he can't turn this into a ground fight, where he has a better shot of pulling out a win--especially in a 3 round fight.
Silva confirmed that he walks around 220-230 so it's not that huge of a size advantage.

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04-29-2009, 01:24 PM
  #42
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He was doing that.
Meh, I thought they were halfhearted. I should probably make clear that while I'm upset by Anderson's effort I'm not refusing to watch any UFC that isn't headlined by Brock Lesnar. I thought it was a boring fight and that Anderson did not do everything he could have done, even conservatively, to try and finish it.

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04-29-2009, 01:52 PM
  #43
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Meh, I thought they were halfhearted. I should probably make clear that while I'm upset by Anderson's effort I'm not refusing to watch any UFC that isn't headlined by Brock Lesnar. I thought it was a boring fight and that Anderson did not do everything he could have done, even conservatively, to try and finish it.
I agree, I think it was a really boring fight and a bad matchup. I blame the UFC; I think they learned their lesson

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04-29-2009, 02:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Meh, I thought they were halfhearted. I should probably make clear that while I'm upset by Anderson's effort I'm not refusing to watch any UFC that isn't headlined by Brock Lesnar. I thought it was a boring fight and that Anderson did not do everything he could have done, even conservatively, to try and finish it.
You're right, he should've jumped into guard and got subbed.

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04-29-2009, 03:05 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Pure Rock Fury View Post
You're right, he should've jumped into guard and got subbed.
All I've said Silva should have done different was work the body more and put more power into the kicks he threw when Leites was butt scooting. Neither of those was any more risky than the strategy he used in the fight.

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04-29-2009, 03:22 PM
  #46
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You're right, he should've jumped into guard and got subbed.
I don't know why so many people seem to think that going to the ground meant instant death for Silva in this fight. If you look at Leites' record in the UFC the only guys he's submitted are total scrubs, he's not Demian Maia out there. In fact, Leites got Silva down several times and Silva never seemed to be in any danger, even from bottom position. Late in the fight he was in Leites' guard pounding on him while Leites did nothing to control his position, and then he just backed out and stood up for no apparent reason.

Playing it safe to win fights is something that Sylvia was totally blasted for when he was champ, so I don't see why it should be a valid excuse for Anderson. Blaming him entirely for that crappy fight is silly, but absolving him of all blame just because Leites butt-flopped a bunch of times isn't any better.

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04-29-2009, 07:18 PM
  #47
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The fight reminded me a lot of Tim Sylvia's awful title defense against Jeff Monson (UFC 65-ish or so I think) where the champ clearly outclasses his challenger but elects to play it safe in the later rounds rather than go for the kill. Sylvia got tons of **** for that fight so I don't know why Anderson shouldn't expect the same.
I drew those parallels as well. Silva has a bigger following, so naturally he has more people to defend him, whereas everyone basically hated Sylvia--especially at the point in time when he fought Monson.

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Silva confirmed that he walks around 220-230 so it's not that huge of a size advantage.
I'm not sure I buy that. Where did he say that?

He weighed in for UFC 97 at 182. I also thought I remembered him saying that he basically didn't cut any for the fight with James Irvin.

In any case, aside from a C-Level Irivin, Griffin will be--by far--the largest opponent that Silva has fought in the UFC.

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04-29-2009, 07:45 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Ensane View Post
Good points Sideline.

Here's something to consider: most people who train with Griffin say he walks around at 230-240lbs, right? This is a pretty big size advantage. I'm not a Griffin fan by any standard, and I still think he lost to Rampage, but I think he's got a better shot than most people want to acknowledge. If he can stay away from getting reckless and avoid Silva's powershots, I see no reason why he can't turn this into a ground fight, where he has a better shot of pulling out a win--especially in a 3 round fight.
there the problem right there ... Griffin switches from game plan to brawl way way to easy

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04-29-2009, 09:35 PM
  #49
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Gomez is overpaid and Redden sux!
see, i still agree!

it'll be really interesting with the size difference

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04-29-2009, 10:18 PM
  #50
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I drew those parallels as well. Silva has a bigger following, so naturally he has more people to defend him, whereas everyone basically hated Sylvia--especially at the point in time when he fought Monson.


I'm not sure I buy that. Where did he say that?

He weighed in for UFC 97 at 182. I also thought I remembered him saying that he basically didn't cut any for the fight with James Irvin.

In any case, aside from a C-Level Irivin, Griffin will be--by far--the largest opponent that Silva has fought in the UFC.
Remembered it a bit wrong, mentioned in an interview after the last fight that where his walk around weight is 215-220. Still not that big of a difference. I can't really remember exactly which one, I think it was the one where he was talking about wanting to fight Fedor though.

As far as not cutting for Irvin goes, if he was walking around 215 he wouldn't really have to. When a fighter says he's cutting, they're generally talking about weeks coming into the fight where they're dealing with strict diet going from a 230 situation to 205. That can't be done by starving/dehydrating and sauna work where a 10lbs difference could.

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