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Old
04-30-2009, 01:11 PM
  #51
Pascal
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Subban will spend a year in the AHL and man the Habs PP with Markov/Weber the year after. He's going to be a star in Montreal and everyone will love him, even the french media.

I have a hunch about him, i think he'll be a great NHLer.

I will check back on this prediction in 2 yrs time

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04-30-2009, 01:13 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
Subban will spend a year in the AHL and man the Habs PP with Markov/Weber the year after. He's going to be a star in Montreal and everyone will love him, even the french media.

I have a hunch about him, i think he'll be a great NHLer.

I will check back on this prediction in 2 yrs time
I heard this same hunch about Price...don't get your expectations up until he proves it.

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04-30-2009, 01:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Give Subban a season in Hamilton to develop and learn the Habs style or play...
So in other words- completely ruin him.

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04-30-2009, 01:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
Actually I was curious and checked the Wings roster and found the following:

Of the players they drafted: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom, all played no time in the AHL

Of the next batch of significant players they chose:Meech 250, Hudler 185 games, Kronwall 102, Filppula 77, Holmstrom 6, Draper 46 Lebda 111. So out of that bunch 4 guys spent more than a season (Meech, Lebda, Hudler and Kronwall). Several fringe guys in the multi year group

Beyond that you have Kopecky with 240 games (3 to 4 seasons). And Ville Leino with about 50 games (new guy)

The rest of the players they did not draft: Hossa 53 games AHL, Rafalski 0 games, Samuelsson 82 games, Cleary 67 games, Brad Stuart 0 games, Lilja 4 games, Maltby 4 games.

All told they have Kopecky, Meech, Lebda, Kronwall and Hudler with more than one year in the AHL

they have 6 guys who never played in the AHL (drafted or not)

they have 7 guys who played less than a season (drafted or not)

Of players they drafted: 4 guys played 0 games, 4 played 1 season or less, 2 played 1 to 2 seasons, 3 played more than 2 seasons

If I made some kind of observation it would be that SOME of their players are European and came with varying amounts of higher league experience when drafted. But nothing huge

By and large their better players have spent little (if any) time in the AHL.
Datsyuk was drafted at the age of 20 and played 3 seasons in Russia. Franzen was an overager (i think he was 23) and played another season in Sweden. zetterberg played 3 seasons in Sweden. Kronwall was drafted as overager and played a couple of seasons in Sweden.

There are 2 players on Red Wings playoff roster, who wasn't there (injury callup doesn't count) during regular season - Ericsson and Helm. Leino and Abdelkader shown they can play in the NHL too, but they spent seasons in Grand Rapids.

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04-30-2009, 02:19 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Maliki2 View Post
I heard this same hunch about Price...don't get your expectations up until he proves it.
are all your posts to bash Price? He had a bad second half. Guess who else just had a horrible series? Brodeur. He must be finished.

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04-30-2009, 02:52 PM
  #56
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Subban's so exciting to watch it wouln't matter how his stats look.

I think he will develop into a 50 point man. PP specialist, who has a meteokre +/-

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04-30-2009, 06:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
Datsyuk was drafted at the age of 20 and played 3 seasons in Russia. Franzen was an overager (i think he was 23) and played another season in Sweden. zetterberg played 3 seasons in Sweden. Kronwall was drafted as overager and played a couple of seasons in Sweden.

There are 2 players on Red Wings playoff roster, who wasn't there (injury callup doesn't count) during regular season - Ericsson and Helm. Leino and Abdelkader shown they can play in the NHL too, but they spent seasons in Grand Rapids.
That is true and I think I acknowledged that some of their picks got seasoning in league in Europe instead of playing Jr hockey. Franzen is sort of an exception chosen at 24 I think

For the most part though, not too many held back in the AHL. Some of the guys now, like Leino for example wil likely be playing in the NHL next year. Leino actually has 13 games in the NHL anyway

Point being most of their players are chosen as developed players. Especially the top players. I don't see an AHL development pattern. There is no room for guys like Leino right now. This is Leino's first year in the AHL after a few years in Finnish pro. He'd be in the NHL elsewhere. same pattrn with him. Find developed players as opposed to developing them in the AHL

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Old
04-30-2009, 09:57 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I see Subban 3-4 years away.

3 or 4 years? Elaborate on how you come to that number...because I think he will be in Montreal within two years at the most he is that good...Weber made the jump in one season and Subban is a better skater and shooter than Weber and better offensively.

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04-30-2009, 10:15 PM
  #59
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3 or 4 years? Elaborate on how you come to that number...because I think he will be in Montreal within two years at the most he is that good...Weber made the jump in one season and Subban is a better skater and shooter than Weber and better offensively.
Subban isn't a better shooter than Weber. Weber had the hardest shot in the OHL All-Star game last year and has very impressive accuracy. PK's wind up looks like he's lining up a canoe paddle. Also, I'm not sure you can say PK is better offensively than Weber. Weber did very well as a 19/20 year old in the AHL this past season.

What I love most about PK is his energy and unmatched passion for the game. He has the heart of a lion and never quits.

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04-30-2009, 10:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Subban isn't a better shooter than Weber. Weber had the hardest shot in the OHL All-Star game last year and has very impressive accuracy. PK's wind up looks like he's lining up a canoe paddle. Also, I'm not sure you can say PK is better offensively than Weber. Weber did very well as a 19/20 year old in the AHL this past season.

What I love most about PK is his energy and unmatched passion for the game. He has the heart of a lion and never quits.
Where was this great shot by Weber during the playoffs...it wasnt nothing to write home about and you are entitled to your opinion..... Subban has a much better upside than Weber...and I stand by what I posted too

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04-30-2009, 11:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I see Subban 3-4 years away.
Probably the only smart post I've read in this thread. Defensemen take more time to develop than forwards, and I'm sure people are baseing their opinions on his performance at the WJC - though clutch, he had flaws in his game and let's be honest, the competition was less then fierce.

He isn't near NHL ready.

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04-30-2009, 11:10 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Probably the only smart post I've read in this thread. Defensemen take more time to develop than forwards, and I'm sure people are baseing their opinions on his performance at the WJC - though clutch, he had flaws in his game and let's be honest, the competition was less then fierce.

He isn't near NHL ready.
Something Ive a hard time to believe some people can be so beside the track.. Subban is at worst 20-30 AHL games away from the NHL, could even be ready as soon as the opener.. He has everything to be one of the most impressive D at camp.. This kid will be a force in the NHL.. including him in a package trade to get Lecavalier would be a huge mistake.. he already moves the puck better than any of our defensemen outside Markov, he is now pretty reliable defensively, his speed will be a huge asset to get out of our zone, his mobility and shot will help our PP too.. Physically he looks solid as well, he takes the body to make a play, read the play pretty well, amazing passing skilled.. He was by far the best defenseman of this tournament and Im not being biaised, P.K. was pretty impressive everytime he touched the ice in any areas of the game.. the flaws you are talking about are in your head.. He was even reading the play better than McDonagh in his own zone..

Hodgson was my best foward of the tournament, knew he was going to become something really special, Nucks fans are lucky.. just like the Habs..


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04-30-2009, 11:12 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Probably the only smart post I've read in this thread. Defensemen take more time to develop than forwards, and I'm sure people are baseing their opinions on his performance at the WJC - though clutch, he had flaws in his game and let's be honest, the competition was less then fierce.

He isn't near NHL ready.
That's a pretty weak generalization. Vlasic, Letang, Sbisa, Yandle, Niskanen, etc... There's plenty of exceptions to that rule and they're not all top 1st round picks.

If the club is missing some steady blue liners, I imagine they won't hesitate to give ice time to their best D prospect, regardless of how much development is needed.

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04-30-2009, 11:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Something Ive a hard time to believe some people can be so beside the track.. Subban is at worst 20-30 AHL games away from the NHL, could even be ready as soon as the opener.. He has everything to be one of the most impressive D at camp.. This kid will be a force in the NHL.. including him in a package trade to get Lecavalier would be a huge mistake..
How can you say that? You know this is what ticks me off, this is where we stop being Habs fan and start acting like Leafs fan. I love Subban, but I refuse to say that he will be a hit in the NHL. I would love to give him a try, 10-20 games here and there in the next 2 seasons, but I expect him to play a sound defensive game (i.e not make too many mistakes) while contributing minimally offensively. Anything above that carries the risk of being let down, and in Montreal, once a young player doesn't meet expectations, we ship him at his lowest value to the first bidder. Or that's what the majority of fans would like to see happen (if we believe the MTL media).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That's a pretty weak generalization. Vlasic, Letang, Sbisa, Yandle, Niskanen, etc... There's plenty of exceptions to that rule and they're not all top 1st round picks.

If the club is missing some steady blue liners, I imagine they won't hesitate to give ice time to their best D prospect, regardless of how much development is needed.
I agree it's weak, but that's because I haven't clarified myself. Best example I can give is Komisarek. When he showed up in Montreal, his first season was ROUGH. People were like "who is this idiot?", took him 2 good full seasons afterwards to impose himself and his game. Now we can either have Subban join the team in the state that it is now, or we can wait and have him come at a more opportune moment when it'll be beneficial for his development in context of the Montreal atmosphere (by that I mean all the **** that is going around the team, i.e Young guys going out too much, team is for sale rumours, new GM, new Head Coach, new players).

If this sounds very badly formulated, I'm sorry but I'm running on caffeine here.

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04-30-2009, 11:30 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
...
I agree it's weak, but that's because I haven't clarified myself. Best example I can give is Komisarek. When he showed up in Montreal, his first season was ROUGH. People were like "who is this idiot?", took him 2 good full seasons afterwards to impose himself and his game. Now we can either have Subban join the team in the state that it is now, or we can wait and have him come at a more opportune moment when it'll be beneficial for his development in context of the Montreal atmosphere (by that I mean all the **** that is going around the team, i.e Young guys going out too much, team is for sale rumours, new GM, new Head Coach, new players).

If this sounds very badly formulated, I'm sorry but I'm running on caffeine here.
It's a good point.

I'd rather have the support of young players addressed though than just making them wait, specially if the player in question just out-classes some of our regular D at camp. ( In a "Latendresse fashion for example )

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04-30-2009, 11:42 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That's a pretty weak generalization. Vlasic, Letang, Sbisa, Yandle, Niskanen, etc... There's plenty of exceptions to that rule and they're not all top 1st round picks.

If the club is missing some steady blue liners, I imagine they won't hesitate to give ice time to their best D prospect, regardless of how much development is needed.
Phaneuf made the jump straight to the Flames, Shea Weber (only 49 AHL games behind the belt), Suter (63 AHL games), Mike Green (58 AHL games), Eric Johnson (1 AHL game) Marc Stall (0 AHL game..) Some of those guys didnt have alot of success at their first NHL season but the exceptionnal ones adapt very quickly to adjust..

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04-30-2009, 11:45 PM
  #67
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it's funny when people think he will crack the line up next year, but with the style he play they will want to trade him everytime he make a mistake.

He need a year in the AHL

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05-01-2009, 12:03 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
How can you say that? You know this is what ticks me off, this is where we stop being Habs fan and start acting like Leafs fan. I love Subban, but I refuse to say that he will be a hit in the NHL. I would love to give him a try, 10-20 games here and there in the next 2 seasons, but I expect him to play a sound defensive game (i.e not make too many mistakes) while contributing minimally offensively. Anything above that carries the risk of being let down, and in Montreal, once a young player doesn't meet expectations, we ship him at his lowest value to the first bidder. Or that's what the majority of fans would like to see happen (if we believe the MTL media).



I agree it's weak, but that's because I haven't clarified myself. Best example I can give is Komisarek. When he showed up in Montreal, his first season was ROUGH. People were like "who is this idiot?", took him 2 good full seasons afterwards to impose himself and his game. Now we can either have Subban join the team in the state that it is now, or we can wait and have him come at a more opportune moment when it'll be beneficial for his development in context of the Montreal atmosphere (by that I mean all the **** that is going around the team, i.e Young guys going out too much, team is for sale rumours, new GM, new Head Coach, new players).

If this sounds very badly formulated, I'm sorry but I'm running on caffeine here.
Komisarek is monster of 6"4 240 lbs, everyone knew the kid had alot improvement to do to become a solid top 3 in the NHL, the package was there but he was very raw.. On the another side, Subban has already above average NHL speed and stickhandling, he sees the ice very well, is always in movement, very smart kid as well.. Big physical defensemen take usually more time to develop properly, they have to adapt to the pro level speed... Subban just has everthing to adapt quickly and wont take long to become a force..

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Old
05-01-2009, 02:49 AM
  #69
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Subban isn't a better shooter than Weber. Weber had the hardest shot in the OHL All-Star game last year and has very impressive accuracy. PK's wind up looks like he's lining up a canoe paddle. Also, I'm not sure you can say PK is better offensively than Weber. Weber did very well as a 19/20 year old in the AHL this past season.

What I love most about PK is his energy and unmatched passion for the game. He has the heart of a lion and never quits.
After seeing each player play many times..Subban has the better shot. Weber had the hardest shot in the comp..ok..Subban was 2nd. And I can flat out guarentee that isn't as hard as Subban can shoot. Not to mention, Subban is deadly accurate as well. In fact, he specializes in getting the puck on the net for goals, rebounds, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htrF7N97qP8

2:18-2:32..that's the rocket. Weber, in my opinion, has the harder wrister, but P.K. has the harder slapshot.

And why does it matter how his windup is? It works awseome for him!

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05-01-2009, 07:56 AM
  #70
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I'm totally open to seeing what training camp brings us. Subban could go just about anywhere, IMHO, I'm not going to predict anymore... he has improved a lot faster than I expected already.

That said, I really hope he has a couple years in the AHL at least. We really don't need to keep rushing players up to the big club. If we currently have any discipline problems with some of our young players, perhaps putting them in the spotlight a bit too soon was a contributing factor. Physically, they may be ready. Subban's speed, skill may make him able to play in the NHL faster than other players. But I'd almost rather see him held back a little bit, try to focus on the subtleties, gain maturity, before we bring him into the big circus.

Hopefully we'll sign a solid defenseman or two this summer and there really won't be a roster spot available for Subban to force his way onto the team.

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05-01-2009, 08:31 AM
  #71
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I'm totally open to seeing what training camp brings us. Subban could go just about anywhere, IMHO, I'm not going to predict anymore... he has improved a lot faster than I expected already.

That said, I really hope he has a couple years in the AHL at least. We really don't need to keep rushing players up to the big club. If we currently have any discipline problems with some of our young players, perhaps putting them in the spotlight a bit too soon was a contributing factor. Physically, they may be ready. Subban's speed, skill may make him able to play in the NHL faster than other players. But I'd almost rather see him held back a little bit, try to focus on the subtleties, gain maturity, before we bring him into the big circus.

Hopefully we'll sign a solid defenseman or two this summer and there really won't be a roster spot available for Subban to force his way onto the team.
I hope they take time with their kids at AHL level. Price, Pacioretty and D'Agostini (and Latendresse, it it would had been possible), should had played at least one full season at that level.

Don't burn the kids. We don't have that many with real talent.

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05-01-2009, 08:48 AM
  #72
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I hope they take time with their kids at AHL level. Price, Pacioretty and D'Agostini (and Latendresse, it it would had been possible), should had played at least one full season at that level.

Don't burn the kids. We don't have that many with real talent.
This year was the 3rd season D'Agostini spent in Hamilton. He was red hot, scoring 14 goals in 20 games, so he got recalled and never went back. Latendresse is the only one to have not appeared in any AHL games. Pac played half a season and Price was with the team from the end of March to June and then a few weeks in December.

If I had to guess, I would think if all goes well, they will do the same thing with Subban that they did with Weber, get him some games to see how he does but let him spent most of the season in the AHL. Now if he does better then Weber then that could change, I'm all for every prospect spending time in the AHL but if they play great, then I think they should get moved up to the NHL.

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05-08-2009, 11:12 AM
  #73
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What are you doing Bob???!

22 days left?

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05-08-2009, 11:45 AM
  #74
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Bob probably has other priorities. It's not that signing Subban is not important, it's that it's a slam dunk.

There's practically nothing to negotiate. A prospect of PK Subban's caliber will get pretty much the standard rookie maximum contract, so there isn't much leeway to negotiate up or down. It can be put together in a day. 22 days is a lot of time for a signing like this.

There's no need to hurry. Both Gainey and Subban's agent probably have more urgent things to do then negotiate a gimme contract before it's necessary.

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05-08-2009, 12:52 PM
  #75
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+1

Maybe not 3-4 but to think he is NHL ready now is simply being to naive about what it takes to play against men, not boys like in the CHL.

Why must we destroy the confidence of a young prospect?
Thats right. If he's 2 years away, that means 3 in Montreal because the same fans who think he can join the team now are the ones who will tear him a new one when he's still in the development phase. Ready mentally? You have to be more then ready in Montreal because the media and the fans will treat you like a animal and you better be able to handle it. Comparisons to Skost is ridiculous because obviously it worked well for him right? Its called learning from your mistakes.

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