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This Team Does Not Have the Talent to Score Goals...Part 2

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Old
04-30-2009, 09:31 AM
  #51
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I'm pretty sure we all know that Renney's firing was just Sather's attempt to save his own butt. Tortorella is a good coach. But the coaching change didn't necessarily need to be made. I agree with Singin' regarding the deadline acquisitions being more of a "boost" than Tortorella's new system. This offseason will, most likely, be another disappointment where we trade off for an enigmatic player, get rid of a young player or two, and sign a veteran with diminishing skills to a ridiculous contract. What Sather has done to this team is extremely discouraging; to the point where I have very little faith in the path the Rangers are heading in, at least until we have a new GM.

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04-30-2009, 09:44 AM
  #52
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I think Renney would have been given more time if it hadn't started looking like his players were giving up on him. Pretty much seems to be the death knell for a coach, because you can't get rid of the whole team if they give up on their coach
Agreed. At the time of the coaching change, we were still a playoff team (6th seed), but we were sinking fast. It was clear the players no longer supported Renney or the brand of hockey he employed. With 20 games left and Buffalo, Florida, Carolina, etc. coming on, the change was necessary to salvage the season.


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04-30-2009, 10:14 AM
  #53
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Although I do agree Cheechoo is a project, but if you saw his play down the stretch like I did (saw every Shark game with my sister's fiance), he caught fire, he can still make a move to get his shot off. But he's anything from over the hill, he's 27 years old.
You could be right, I honestly only saw him about 5 or 6 times all season. FWIW, I know he's relatively young, but what I meant by over the hill was that his days of awesome production may be behind him. I'll take your word for it though.

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04-30-2009, 10:19 AM
  #54
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If he came really cheap and had a bit of a resurgence (30 goals, 30 assists) that'd be great, but it seems like a big risk to take on a guy who's been fading in recent years and was mainly successful because he had one of the best setup guys in the league feeding him pucks

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04-30-2009, 10:33 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Prucha was not a a 20 goal scorer and hasn't been for a two seasons now. The fact that he once scored 20+ goals does not make him a 20 goal scorer. Radek Dvorak scored 30 goals once. Does that mean he' scoring 30 now? And if Prucha was more valuable than Antropov, how is it that Torts was willing to let Slats trade him? For that matter, if Prucha was being stymied and kept down by Renney, how come did flourish in Phoenix?

And I really fail to see how the talent that came in wasn't that much better than what the Rangers gave up when one guy they added had more goals than any Ranger at that time.

If you score 33 and 20 in your first two NHL seasons, in my book you're a 20 goal scorer. He finished with 10 pts in 19 games in Phoenix, I think it's a safe bet he'll hit 20 again next season given decent minutes.

Antropov immediately became our highest scorer because he came from an aggressive TO system that scored in bunches. After the trade he scored 13 pts in 18 games in an aggressive Tortorella system. Had he played a full season in a defensive Renney system, with his speed I really doubt he'd top 50-55 points.

So, again, there was an upgrade, that I'm not denying, but it's nowhere near as big as some think. And it definitely would not have been enough to right the season on a fast track to oblivion.

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04-30-2009, 10:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Most people thought it was a bit of both. But there was a heavy faction that blamed most or all of the offensive ineptitude strictly on Renney.

I was never a big fan of Renney, but I thought he deserved a full season and an infusion of talent at the deadline.
why does every year he need an infusion of talent to barely make the PO's. I know sather doesn't create the best teams, but Renney's teams have underperformed for the last two years before this season. And both times it was because of a lack of offense. He is a decent coach, who doesn't get the most out of his players, and isn't a great motivator, or good in game decision maker. he was very good at teaching defense however. i don't think he will ever become a great HC until he learns how to put some offensive gameplanning in, or just gets lucky to have a ridiculous superstar carry him.

this team had plenty of offensive deficiencies, but Renney's stlye of no attack made those deficiencies even worse. We needed to be feistier and go after the opponents goalie, and defense to create more opportunities to be successful.

Case in point. Just look at how many odd man rushes, and breakaways this team has had under Torts. We had more in this series against WSH than the entire season under Renney (exaggerating some but not a whole lot). Now, we just need the talent to put the puck in the net.

So again, I think it was a combination of both Renney and the talent. But Renneys stubborness and system was just making the talent even worse than they were. Just look at how Cally flourished under torts, even Dubi, Gomez, and Drury looked better under Torts.

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04-30-2009, 11:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
If you score 33 and 20 in your first two NHL seasons, in my book you're a 20 goal scorer.
And what has he done since?

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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
He finished with 10 pts in 19 games in Phoenix, I think it's a safe bet he'll hit 20 again next season given decent minutes.
My how the bar has been lowered for this guy.

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Antropov immediately became our highest scorer because he came from an aggressive TO system that scored in bunches. After the trade he scored 13 pts in 18 games in an aggressive Tortorella system. Had he played a full season in a defensive Renney system, with his speed I really doubt he'd top 50-55 points.
So you're saying he had better numbers than Prucha did in Phoenix?

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So, again, there was an upgrade, that I'm not denying, but it's nowhere near as big as some think. And it definitely would not have been enough to right the season on a fast track to oblivion.
Nowhere near? Their top goal scorer, a vet defenseman who was better than the guy he replaced and a guy who, for whatever reason, has an amazing impact on this team for a guy who scored 20 goals two seasons ago has have not score that many goals combined since, a guy who might become something and a defenseman that people where dying to dump.

How is that not a huge upgrade?

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04-30-2009, 11:18 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And what has he done since?



My how the bar has been lowered for this guy.



So you're saying he had better numbers than Prucha did in Phoenix?



Nowhere near? Their top goal scorer, a vet defenseman who was better than the guy he replaced and a guy who, for whatever reason, has an amazing impact on this team for a guy who scored 20 goals two seasons ago has have not score that many goals combined since, a guy who might become something and a defenseman that people where dying to dump.

How is that not a huge upgrade?
This comes down to us having a different assessment of Prucha. I think he was horribly mismanaged and could be a solid 50-60 pt performer given 2nd line minutes and some PP time. We'll see how he does in Phoenix.

I also see Antropov as a solid 55-65 pt performer given second line minutes and some PP time. So, to me, there's no big difference between the two.

Avery and Morris were upgrades over Dawes and Kalinin, sure. Again, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that the upgrade would not have been enough with Renney at the helm. That's my opinion, though we'll never know either way.

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04-30-2009, 11:24 AM
  #59
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Antropov was a nice upgrade but jesus we're still talking about a 2nd liner that doesn't have the ability to carry the team.

It's not like the Rangers snagged a PPG sniper to help them out

edit: and Morris is/was an alright 2nd pairing guy but hardly a difference maker

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04-30-2009, 11:35 AM
  #60
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why does every year he need an infusion of talent to barely make the PO's. I know sather doesn't create the best teams, but Renney's teams have underperformed for the last two years before this season. And both times it was because of a lack of offense. He is a decent coach, who doesn't get the most out of his players, and isn't a great motivator, or good in game decision maker. he was very good at teaching defense however.
Renney's teams have underperformed? Really??? I said last summer that this team would have trouble scoring goals, to the point where I didnt know if they'd even make the playoffs. The roster was that faulty, especially on the wings. At the time of his firing, Renney still had that flawed roster sitting in the 6th spot. You give him Avery, Antro, and Morris, and I think he makes the playoffs and loses in the 1st round too.

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04-30-2009, 11:53 AM
  #61
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Renney's teams have underperformed? Really??? I said last summer that this team would have trouble scoring goals, to the point where I didnt know if they'd even make the playoffs. The roster was that faulty, especially on the wings. At the time of his firing, Renney still had that flawed roster sitting in the 6th spot. You give him Avery, Antro, and Morris, and I think he makes the playoffs and loses in the 1st round too.
Yes his teams have underperformed. We should have beat Buffalo in 07 and should have had a much better offense last year, and should have beat Pitt in the PO's. He was outcoached in both series. No way our offense should have been so anemic last year with the team we had. No way our PP should have been so pathetic last year w/ the personnel we had.

This year we overperformed the first month, than vastly underperformed in Jan and Feb. Again, we shouldn't have scored so little. I mean we should have had probably another 10-15 goals more on the season if we were more aggressive. That would have given us at least 3 or 4 more wins. And even if the rangers go Avery, Antro and Morris I don't think Renney would have brought us to the PO's. The team was tired of his boring style and had given up on him. Teams don't give up on good coaches, they give up on mediocre coaches. Renney didn't ever try to change the teams style to see if they could be more effective, and that's why he ultimately failed.

yes this team was lacking talent on the wings, but Renneys defense all the time, don't try to create any offense only made matters worse. it was killing their confidence, and creating less scoring chances. Just take a look at how many more scoring chances we get under Torts, while giving up roughly the same amount as before.

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04-30-2009, 12:11 PM
  #62
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Yes his teams have underperformed. We should have beat Buffalo in 07 and should have had a much better offense last year, and should have beat Pitt in the PO's. He was outcoached in both series. No way our offense should have been so anemic last year with the team we had. No way our PP should have been so pathetic last year w/ the personnel we had.

This year we overperformed the first month, than vastly underperformed in Jan and Feb. Again, we shouldn't have scored so little. I mean we should have had probably another 10-15 goals more on the season if we were more aggressive. That would have given us at least 3 or 4 more wins. And even if the rangers go Avery, Antro and Morris I don't think Renney would have brought us to the PO's. The team was tired of his boring style and had given up on him. Teams don't give up on good coaches, they give up on mediocre coaches. Renney didn't ever try to change the teams style to see if they could be more effective, and that's why he ultimately failed.

yes this team was lacking talent on the wings, but Renneys defense all the time, don't try to create any offense only made matters worse. it was killing their confidence, and creating less scoring chances. Just take a look at how many more scoring chances we get under Torts, while giving up roughly the same amount as before.
C'mon, Buffalo and Pitt were straight up better teams than the Rangers the previous 2 playoff years. If Renney and company beat them, it would have been viewed as an upset by just about everyone.

Heres what Tortorella had to say about the offense after game 7:

Quote:
We still didnít finish. We still didnít make that last play,and thatís the big problem with our club. We all know that, that weíre an offensively challenged team.Ē

He said he thought biggest move of the series was the Capitalsí change to Varlamov.

On whether thereís not enough top-end talent, or whether the top-end guys not good enough?

ďBoth. I donít want to step out of bounds because iím not the manager of the club and weíre going to have, in two weeks, meetings regarding this. But I think I can step out and say I donít think we have it totally as far as within our team, and I donít think we got it totally from the people within our team.

ďThis is definitely going to be addressed.Ē
Wheres the part about them being held back? I mean, thats as close as you can come to saying "THIS IS A PERSONNEL ISSUE" as a head coach...and this is with Antropov and Avery. He might have gone nuclear if he had to deal with Prucha and Dawes all season.

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04-30-2009, 12:20 PM
  #63
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Naslund would have to give his blessing.

It also seems that Cheechoo's best day's are behind him. We dont need any more of that.
Is it me or does Cheechoo's career remind you of Tony Amonte?

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04-30-2009, 12:27 PM
  #64
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Is it me or does Cheechoo's career remind you of Tony Amonte?
I dont know. Amonte had some great years in Chicago, You could basically pencil him in for 30-40+ goals for 6 or 7 seasons.

Cheechoo went bonkers with 56 goals in 05-06 and his numbers have absolutely nosedived since then.

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04-30-2009, 12:43 PM
  #65
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C'mon, Buffalo and Pitt were straight up better teams than the Rangers the previous 2 playoff years. If Renney and company beat them, it would have been viewed as an upset by just about everyone.
Buffalo was better, but not by much at all. We still outplayed them that series and lost. Renneys blunder of sending out Nylander, and Jagr for a defensive zone draw cost us that game which demoralized our team. Simply put, you put out your best defensive players at that point in the game for that faceoff.

Pittsburgh was not better. In fact everybody was saying that the game should go to 7, and most experts were split on who would win. We lost in 5. We were completely outcoached. Renney didn't adjust his gameplan at all. he kept using Hollweg for some reason nobody can understand.

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Heres what Tortorella had to say about the offense after game 7:

Wheres the part about them being held back? I mean, thats as close as you can come to saying "THIS IS A PERSONNEL ISSUE" as a head coach...and this is with Antropov and Avery. He might have gone nuclear if he had to deal with Prucha and Dawes all season.
again, I agree that we have personel issues. I am just saying that Renney never got the most out of his team. He never put them in good offensive opportunities. He would rather the other team have control of the puck, and us try to play defense the entire game, while getting a lucky goal. Torts wants us to control a game, and take it to another team. he doesn't want to win 2-1. He wants to win 20-1 and pummel opponents into submission. No quit, no sit back and cling on for dear life. Unfortunately we didn't have the personnel to do it.

But when Renney did have the personnel to score alot of goals, he still would rather have his team sit back when having the lead rather than us trying to make the lead bigger.

All I wanted Renney to do was at least try something different. Try a different strategy, as the one he was using wasn't working that well b/c we were clinging on for dear life. He needs to learn how to adjust.

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04-30-2009, 01:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post

Heres what Tortorella had to say about the offense after game 7:



Wheres the part about them being held back? I mean, thats as close as you can come to saying "THIS IS A PERSONNEL ISSUE" as a head coach...and this is with Antropov and Avery. He might have gone nuclear if he had to deal with Prucha and Dawes all season.
He said he wasn't going to or accept if any of the players blame the previous staff a day after getting hired,don't think he was gonna do it now.

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04-30-2009, 01:38 PM
  #67
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Sather has a couple of options this offseason:

1) Try to move some of the older players(Rozi, Gomez, Redden, Naslund) and attempt to go with a young energetic team based around players like Dubi, Cally and Staal.
pros---The team would save a lot of money and could see their younger players gain a lot of ice time and experience.
cons---The team most likely wouldnt make the playoffs and the pressure on the kids could make them crumble.

2) Keep the team intact as it is.
pros---Possibly allows for some chemistry to grow and the offense to gel.
cons---The team is in cap hell and it most likely would mean losing a younger player.

3) Attempt to make a trade for a legit goal-scorer.
pros---Would most likely help with some of the problems related to the offense.
cons---Loss of good young players an most likely good draft picks. Most likely would lead to worse cap problems in the near future unless one of the big-3 are moved as well.
I agree with your assessment and my vote is for option 1. I really believe we need to take a step back before we can move forward. Here is the team I would like to see next year:

Players traded: Gomez to Vancouver for Steve Bernier and a 2nd. Trading Gomez gives us the most bang for our buck. Bernier is a big young player who will be an RFA next year, though he was a bit overpaid this year at 2.5 mil.

Vancouver may go for this as Sundin likely won't be back and if they lose both Sedins, they will be be hurting for top 6 fowards. Also, without those 3 players they will have plenty of cap room to take on Gomez's contract. It's also a good fit for the fact that Gomez will be as close to home as possible.

Drury 7,050,000
Naslund 4,000,000
Antropov 4,000,000 2 years
Zherdev 3,000,000 2 years
Bernier 2,500,000 2 years
Avery 1,937,500
Dubinsky 1,500,000 3 years
Callahan 1,500,000 3 years
Betts 1,000,000 3 years
Korpikoski 1,000,000 3 years
Sjostrom 1,000,000 2 years
Anisimov 821,667
Byers 700,000 2 years
Orr 600,000 1 year

Total 30,609,167

If Grachev is ready this year, trade or buyout Naslund. Buyout would save us 1,125,000 (Naslund would cost 2 mil next year and 1 mil the year after). Trade would save us 3,125,000. Otherwise send Grachev to Hartford and he takes Naslund's place in 2010-11.

Redden 6,500,000
Rozsival 5,000,000
Gilroy 1,750,000
Girardi 1,550,000
Sauer 846,667
Staal 826,667
Potter 650,000

Total 17,123,334

Lundqvist 6,875,000
Valiquette 800,000 (or Zaba or Wiikman at 600,000)

Total 7,675,000

Grand total 55,407,501

Assuming the cap stays the same, that will leave us with about 1.3 mil.

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04-30-2009, 03:00 PM
  #68
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If you score 33 and 20 in your first two NHL seasons, in my book you're a 20 goal scorer. He finished with 10 pts in 19 games in Phoenix, I think it's a safe bet he'll hit 20 again next season given decent minutes.

Antropov immediately became our highest scorer because he came from an aggressive TO system that scored in bunches. After the trade he scored 13 pts in 18 games in an aggressive Tortorella system. Had he played a full season in a defensive Renney system, with his speed I really doubt he'd top 50-55 points.

So, again, there was an upgrade, that I'm not denying, but it's nowhere near as big as some think. And it definitely would not have been enough to right the season on a fast track to oblivion.
I watched pretty much every game that Phoenix played after the trade. Prucha was getting first line minutes , and sig PP time. Thats also in a good stystem of puck pressure that Gretzky uses. I don't believe for a second that those minutes translated to the Ranger squad would have helped the team at all..

Dawes was a healthy scratch at the end of the season.

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04-30-2009, 03:13 PM
  #69
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I watched pretty much every game that Phoenix played after the trade. Prucha was getting first line minutes , and sig PP time. Thats also in a good stystem of puck pressure that Gretzky uses. I don't believe for a second that those minutes translated to the Ranger squad would have helped the team at all..

Dawes was a healthy scratch at the end of the season.
That's not surprising, his confidence is shot after 2 seasons of mismanagement. Let's give him a full season and see what he does with it. As far as Dawes, there's definitely talent there. The kid has got a great shot, good strength, speed. I don't know if it's lack of hockey sense or what, but he can't seem to put it together.

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04-30-2009, 03:35 PM
  #70
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That's not surprising, his confidence is shot after 2 seasons of mismanagement. Let's give him a full season and see what he does with it. As far as Dawes, there's definitely talent there. The kid has got a great shot, good strength, speed. I don't know if it's lack of hockey sense or what, but he can't seem to put it together.
Prucha will be in Europe before 2012. It wasn't mismanagement that shattered his confidence, it was the beatings he was taking every night he was in the lineup.

As for Dawes, well, Im hardpressed to find a former Ranger that was more invisible than him on the ice.

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