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Shades of 1998-9?

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Old
03-21-2004, 08:28 PM
  #1
Laches
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Shades of 1998-9?

Anyone else notice a few similarities between this season and the '98-9 season?

We saw one of our most important players' career ended by a head injury

Alexei Kovalev played so poorly that we really had no choice but to trade him

A relic from the Oiler dyansty on his last legs was eating up gobs of icetime at center

We hovered around .500 for the first half of the season before tanking in the second half

A soft winger who couldn't score, and couldn't do much of anything else either, inexplicably kept getting a regular shift

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03-21-2004, 08:46 PM
  #2
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With Lindros out, Nedved gone and Lundmark being about as useful as a lightbulb in the amish country, who else would you like to throw out there on Center.

The fact that a 43 year old center has more goals than Kovalev, Lindros, Nedved and anyone else not named Jagr or Holik says more about this team than the icetime he is getting.

I dont have a dang thing against him getting his icetime. For all the *****ing and moaning people have done about this guy he's playing better than hundreds of guys in their 20's who can't hit the 20 goal, 40 point mark.

When Lundmark stops sleepwalking out there and Garth Murray is capable of consistently scoring than we can complain about Messier. Sad fact is he's been the second most durable and productive center this season for a team of players who are supposed to be in their primes and couldn't hit the broad side of JD's Fat Rear End.

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Old
03-21-2004, 09:07 PM
  #3
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I was actually not happy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
With Lindros out, Nedved gone and Lundmark being about as useful as a lightbulb in the amish country, who else would you like to throw out there on Center.

The fact that a 43 year old center has more goals than Kovalev, Lindros, Nedved and anyone else not named Jagr or Holik says more about this team than the icetime he is getting.

I dont have a dang thing against him getting his icetime. For all the *****ing and moaning people have done about this guy he's playing better than hundreds of guys in their 20's who can't hit the 20 goal, 40 point mark.

When Lundmark stops sleepwalking out there and Garth Murray is capable of consistently scoring than we can complain about Messier. Sad fact is he's been the second most durable and productive center this season for a team of players who are supposed to be in their primes and couldn't hit the broad side of JD's Fat Rear End.
Messier was tossed out of the game. It seemed like Renney finally put together sensible lines - Green/Lundmark/Balej, Hlavac/Messier/Jagr and Murray/Holik/Lacouture, only to have Messier screw it up. I could just see Renney going back to Holik next to Jagr. Fortunately, he just moved Mike Green up.

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03-21-2004, 09:47 PM
  #4
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i dont care how good messiers been... we arent playing for anything now so theres no reason to play the better current player more now when we are more concerned about our future

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03-22-2004, 02:31 AM
  #5
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to an extent yes.

having said that you could shoot a kids confidence out the window by rushing him.

We're not really overflowing with center prospects at the moment.

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03-22-2004, 08:44 AM
  #6
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Thanks Edge...

with this comment 'useful as a lightbulb in the amish country' I have officially came out of my crappy mood.

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03-22-2004, 09:28 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
With Lindros out, Nedved gone and Lundmark being about as useful as a lightbulb in the amish country, who else would you like to throw out there on Center.

The fact that a 43 year old center has more goals than Kovalev, Lindros, Nedved and anyone else not named Jagr or Holik says more about this team than the icetime he is getting.

I dont have a dang thing against him getting his icetime. For all the *****ing and moaning people have done about this guy he's playing better than hundreds of guys in their 20's who can't hit the 20 goal, 40 point mark.

When Lundmark stops sleepwalking out there and Garth Murray is capable of consistently scoring than we can complain about Messier. Sad fact is he's been the second most durable and productive center this season for a team of players who are supposed to be in their primes and couldn't hit the broad side of JD's Fat Rear End.
---It wasn't a complaint, merely an observation.

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Old
03-22-2004, 09:45 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
With Lindros out, Nedved gone and Lundmark being about as useful as a lightbulb in the amish country, who else would you like to throw out there on Center.

The fact that a 43 year old center has more goals than Kovalev, Lindros, Nedved and anyone else not named Jagr or Holik says more about this team than the icetime he is getting.

I dont have a dang thing against him getting his icetime. For all the *****ing and moaning people have done about this guy he's playing better than hundreds of guys in their 20's who can't hit the 20 goal, 40 point mark.

When Lundmark stops sleepwalking out there and Garth Murray is capable of consistently scoring than we can complain about Messier. Sad fact is he's been the second most durable and productive center this season for a team of players who are supposed to be in their primes and couldn't hit the broad side of JD's Fat Rear End.
Couldn't agree more ... its a disgrace that it is true, but he has been the most, if not second most, consistently hard working and productive forward on the team this year ... what does that say about all of the other forwards on the team...

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Old
03-22-2004, 10:58 AM
  #9
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Why is it such a shock that Messier has prospered most in this Sather system and almost everyone else looked out of place?

10 years without a decent head coach.

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03-22-2004, 11:05 AM
  #10
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Wow, it has been ten years...

since this team was coached with a player that had a set of cojones. This organization really did blow itself up; and unfortunately, Sather's there to build it up again. He's got the picks to do it. He had the vets to begin it. Now it's time to get nervous.

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Old
03-22-2004, 01:01 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13
Why is it such a shock that Messier has prospered most in this Sather system and almost everyone else looked out of place?

10 years without a decent head coach.
To an extent but wouldn't the same apply to Messier then?

I doubt Messier at 43 could put up 20 goals, 40 points and a plus rating if the problem were totally the system. Taking it a step further couldn't we say that maybe those numbers become 25 goals and 50 points in a proper system?

I think the problem was

partly the system, partly the players and partly the foundation of this team.

The systm obviously sucked, and Messier scoring 20 goals and 40 points is not a byproduct of it. If a system sucks, I doubt anyone becomes more productive for it. Especially in their 40's.

There were too many weak minded players whose hockey sense looked like the cover of the spaghetti incident. too many guys out of position and too many guys in their "prime" who wanted a pay check.

Add to that foundation problems {no rookies pushing, no rookies being given a chance and no discipline} and you've got a disaster.

I think the biggest problem with this team is the glasses it views the world with. Change will only come when this team alters the organizational mindset. Until that time, nothing is safe.

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Old
03-22-2004, 01:51 PM
  #12
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I think Mess is maxing out...

in terms of what he can do, or what you'd want from him. I'm fine with the way Mess has played. And heck, I haven't been as anti-Mess as many people, remembering the wonderful linemates he has had that included the Jeffs, Toms and Ulmer.

Out of all the players this team has had, Mess was one that was put into the correct role. He played away from top defensive pairings - and top scoring lines. He played with guys who weren't too bad...guys that would give him room. And he played on the specialty teams, scoring opportunistically.

But Mess was smart. He got a good amount of his goals cherry-picking in front of the net while others did the work. His 17% shooting percentage is not too shabby, espcically for a guy with 17 goals.

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Old
03-22-2004, 01:58 PM
  #13
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And one thing that can't be taken away from Mess is that he is still a very good passer.Certainly the best setup man we had this year.

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Old
03-22-2004, 02:05 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
And one thing that can't be taken away from Mess is that he is still a very good passer.Certainly the best setup man we had this year.
True, Mess can still make some nice set-ups, but for every nice set-up this year, he's made 3 awful passes that resulted in a turnover.

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Old
03-22-2004, 02:16 PM
  #15
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And that's going to happen with a playmaker, especially with linemates who aren't really finishers.

Make no mistake, his linemates by him room but they dont back people up.

You're gonna have turnovers but having guys like poti defending your goal is probably the bigger problem.

When the goalie can't stop a beach ball and the guy in front of him looks like he is trying to politely ask people to clear the crease, that is going to happen.

You also have to ask yourself, how many of those turnovers were the result of Messier trying desperatly to get something going because they guys who were SUPPOSED to be doing that on the top two lines, weren't.

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03-22-2004, 02:24 PM
  #16
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From what I've seen, most of these giveaways are caused by Mess trying to get too cute at the blueline. Gretz led the league in giveaways while he was here, but he never looked as bad as Mess has this year because Gretz knew when a forced pass wasn't likely to hurt the team. But Mess continues to try the behind-the-back drop pass at the blueline that hasn't worked since 1985.

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Old
03-22-2004, 03:03 PM
  #17
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well obviously it worked better than whatever the younger, more modern players were trying because he outscored them.

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03-22-2004, 05:07 PM
  #18
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He scored a pile at the beginning of the year and I think that milestone had a lot to do with it. The team was literally feeding everything through Mess to try and get that "2nd all-time" for him. It gave him a big boost and it also gave the team a big boost.

He went on a heavy slide after that and recently has just sort of come back. For a while there he was pretty invisible.

By the way, I really liked what that Green-Lundmark-Balej line showed the other night. I wouldn't mind seeing it again, tomorrow night, either.

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03-22-2004, 05:11 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
well obviously it worked better than whatever the younger, more modern players were trying because he outscored them.
If the younger, more modern players tried half of the things Mess has tried, they'd find their ***** stapled to the bench. Mess just gets a pat on the back and is told to have another go at it.

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Old
03-22-2004, 05:32 PM
  #20
Edge
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oh you mean like kovalev's turn overs?

Or lindros losing his man in the zone?

or poti losing someone in front of the net?

or lundmark taking a bad penalty and getting thrown right back out there the next night?

or maybe you were referring to Petr Nedved's offensive wizardy?


Messier aint perfect and he isn't the player he was, but the fact that at 43 he's put 20 goals and 40 points and has managed to be a plus player says that he can still play.

He's been used in the right situations this year and he's done just fine.

On a better team his numbers are proably even better, but what does it say when more than few times Messier was the only dang center on this team who could generate anything and still remain healthy.

this team has a lot of problems, but Messier's performance has not been the biggest.

if those younger players like lundmark actually showed a pulse out there we could argue that point.

if lindros, nedved and company actually put up even half of what they could then we arent even talking about messier.

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Old
03-22-2004, 06:15 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
oh you mean like kovalev's turn overs?

Or lindros losing his man in the zone?

or poti losing someone in front of the net?

or lundmark taking a bad penalty and getting thrown right back out there the next night?

or maybe you were referring to Petr Nedved's offensive wizardy?


Messier aint perfect and he isn't the player he was, but the fact that at 43 he's put 20 goals and 40 points and has managed to be a plus player says that he can still play.

He's been used in the right situations this year and he's done just fine.

On a better team his numbers are proably even better, but what does it say when more than few times Messier was the only dang center on this team who could generate anything and still remain healthy.

this team has a lot of problems, but Messier's performance has not been the biggest.

if those younger players like lundmark actually showed a pulse out there we could argue that point.

if lindros, nedved and company actually put up even half of what they could then we arent even talking about messier.
If everyone else played at Messier's level, we'd be in the playoffs ... unfortunately, no one besides Messier played up to expectations, and in fact they all played well below expectations.

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