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If the Coyotes move, do we move to the Western Conference?

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Old
05-09-2009, 05:45 PM
  #51
chagopian
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Nothing's going to come about from this, Atlanta's not on the verge of becoming a playoff contender like Phoenix is, but no one's moving anything to Hamilton.

You know, the big problem here people dont realize is that, every sport is expected to have their scrubish team. The NBA has a whole basement of teams that can't pack their houses, some of which, are pretty damn good. Every league management understands, that even in places like Chicago and Boston, if your team underperforms, you won't pack the arenas, you'll lose money. Phoenix and Atlanta, sure they can't pack their arenas, but under what level of result are audiences coming out to these teams play? A paltry few playoff appearances in a handful amount of years? These teams have managed to fail pretty badly out on the ice for most of their time in both their respective markets, performing as bad as you can expect, probably couldn't get worse at times, and they're still managing to pull out a consistent attendance number every game (not a great one mind you). The potential for both markets exists.

But the fact that there is a market is what makes Phoenix or Atlanta far more attractive than Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Quebec City. The NBA manages to make money despite the fact that they have worse in house attendance numbers than the NHL, that's because they make big money off television ad revenue. Anyone care to remember the ratings that the Edmonton Oilers and Carolina Hurricanes managed to bring to television? What about the Ottawa Senators or the Anaheim Mighty Ducks (I'm pretty sure, worst stanley cup ratings in modern NHL history)? Moving either Phoenix or Atlanta while the league is increasing positively, but slowly, amidst a financial avalanche, to a market that has one third the number of Phoenix's, and tremendously less than Atlantas, the potential for both those two markets trumps Hamilton's by roads and roads.

The NHL is a community game in the United States, it sells more based on what markets are invovled. It's not the same as the NFL or the MLB, you aren't going to get a consistent number of fans to every Stanley Cup final as you would with either of those two sports respective championships. And right now, the package you're selling to new fans, the mythology of the league so to speak, is the Phoenix Coyotes, the Atlanta Thrashers, and this five team, 6 division system. As far as scrubish teams go, anyone in their right mind what prefer to have an unsuccessful team in Atlanta and Phoenix than in Hamilton. And right now, when the league is still repairing it self, you can't move pieces left and right.

Alright, this place was dead so I thought I'd get my views off here. Ignore this at all costs if you have to.

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Old
05-09-2009, 06:00 PM
  #52
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just leave Carolina in Raleigh

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05-09-2009, 06:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Sneak View Post
meh. I'd think Florida would go prior to the Thrashers if they were allowed to move. Besides, Bettman is adamantly against relocation.
Panthers aint going anywere. Relocating or standings wise

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05-09-2009, 06:39 PM
  #54
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When asked at the Hawks game tonight by the the AJC newspaper's Thrashers beat writer about the Thrashers moving to Hamilton, owner Bruce Levenson replied that there is no truth to the rumor.

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05-09-2009, 06:56 PM
  #55
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When asked at the Hawks game tonight by the the AJC newspaper's Thrashers beat writer about the Thrashers moving to Hamilton, owner Bruce Levenson replied that there is no truth to the rumor.
You might want to check your glasses.
Levenson refused to comment.

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05-09-2009, 07:05 PM
  #56
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You might want to check your glasses.
Levenson refused to comment.
So I just saw:

http://www.ajc.com/thrashers/content...e_ontario.html

The source for each is the same, Vivlamore, but this one is in the paper.

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05-09-2009, 08:36 PM
  #57
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Let me make this real easy for you, since reading comprehension seems to evade your understanding:

You cannot move something you do not own.

It's that simple.

This is nothing more than speculative journalism from the Toronto Sports Network. Friends of mine in Winnipeg, as bitter as they are about the Jets moving, feel this story is a lot of conjecture and no real fact. Yeah, sure, some guys in Vancouver are talking to the Hamilton mayor. Big deal. Until they buy something, this is just bunk.


Instead of being so defensive, read the article. This is more about an investment group approaching a prospective city about the possibilities of a lease agreement in the event they can secure a franchise (the Thrashers, or any other team), than it is about the Atlanta Thrashers and their current or speculative future ownership situation.

I can understand you being upset over the suggestion that someone has aspirations of moving your team, but that's not the *news* this article is highlighting. It's highlighting the fact the multiple investor groups are interested in securing NHL teams and moving them to Hamilton. This is a HAMILTON story, not a Thrashers story.

Calm down, and leave the insults elsewhere.

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05-09-2009, 09:00 PM
  #58
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Nothing's going to come about from this, Atlanta's not on the verge of becoming a playoff contender like Phoenix is, but no one's moving anything to Hamilton.

You know, the big problem here people dont realize is that, every sport is expected to have their scrubish team. The NBA has a whole basement of teams that can't pack their houses, some of which, are pretty damn good. Every league management understands, that even in places like Chicago and Boston, if your team underperforms, you won't pack the arenas, you'll lose money. Phoenix and Atlanta, sure they can't pack their arenas, but under what level of result are audiences coming out to these teams play? A paltry few playoff appearances in a handful amount of years? These teams have managed to fail pretty badly out on the ice for most of their time in both their respective markets, performing as bad as you can expect, probably couldn't get worse at times, and they're still managing to pull out a consistent attendance number every game (not a great one mind you). The potential for both markets exists.

But the fact that there is a market is what makes Phoenix or Atlanta far more attractive than Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Quebec City. The NBA manages to make money despite the fact that they have worse in house attendance numbers than the NHL, that's because they make big money off television ad revenue. Anyone care to remember the ratings that the Edmonton Oilers and Carolina Hurricanes managed to bring to television? What about the Ottawa Senators or the Anaheim Mighty Ducks (I'm pretty sure, worst stanley cup ratings in modern NHL history)? Moving either Phoenix or Atlanta while the league is increasing positively, but slowly, amidst a financial avalanche, to a market that has one third the number of Phoenix's, and tremendously less than Atlantas, the potential for both those two markets trumps Hamilton's by roads and roads.

The NHL is a community game in the United States, it sells more based on what markets are invovled. It's not the same as the NFL or the MLB, you aren't going to get a consistent number of fans to every Stanley Cup final as you would with either of those two sports respective championships. And right now, the package you're selling to new fans, the mythology of the league so to speak, is the Phoenix Coyotes, the Atlanta Thrashers, and this five team, 6 division system. As far as scrubish teams go, anyone in their right mind what prefer to have an unsuccessful team in Atlanta and Phoenix than in Hamilton. And right now, when the league is still repairing it self, you can't move pieces left and right.

Alright, this place was dead so I thought I'd get my views off here. Ignore this at all costs if you have to.
Excellent post.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:13 PM
  #59
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Instead of being so defensive, read the article. This is more about an investment group approaching a prospective city about the possibilities of a lease agreement in the event they can secure a franchise (the Thrashers, or any other team), than it is about the Atlanta Thrashers and their current or speculative future ownership situation.

I can understand you being upset over the suggestion that someone has aspirations of moving your team, but that's not the *news* this article is highlighting. It's highlighting the fact the multiple investor groups are interested in securing NHL teams and moving them to Hamilton. This is a HAMILTON story, not a Thrashers story.

Calm down, and leave the insults elsewhere.



All interesting comments considering it was a canadian that posted the story on a Thrashers forum and the headline of the article states they want to move the Thrashers to hamilton.

I find your feigned shock to our reaction disingenuous at best.

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05-09-2009, 09:25 PM
  #60
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All interesting comments considering it was a canadian that posted the story on a Thrashers forum and the headline of the article states they want to move the Thrashers to hamilton.

I find your feigned shock to our reaction disingenuous at best.
I don't really understand what the nationality of the original poster has to do with anything... but that's neither here nor there.

Headlines, as we all know, are usually used to shock the reader into taking notice of the article. More often than not, the substance of a headline should be ignored, and the article should be read. Once you read the article, you begin to understand the the interesting "newsworthy" segment of it is regarding the multiple groups interested in Hamilton as a potential location for an NHL team these groups want to acquire.

The specifics about Atlanta are probably true. A group from Vancouver is laying the groundwork just in case the team becomes available. Is it available now? No, and the article doesn't say differently. You all have made the legal issues regarding the Thrashers perfectly clear. However, if someone were to want to acquire any sports franchise (with the intent of moving it), they'd probably start that process by looking into potential venues where they could place the team.

I'm not arguing that the Thrashers are going anywhere, I'm just saying that the article is not the "bunk" that people are describing it as. People are reading it as something it is not.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:51 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Canadian View Post


Instead of being so defensive, read the article. This is more about an investment group approaching a prospective city about the possibilities of a lease agreement in the event they can secure a franchise (the Thrashers, or any other team), than it is about the Atlanta Thrashers and their current or speculative future ownership situation.

I can understand you being upset over the suggestion that someone has aspirations of moving your team, but that's not the *news* this article is highlighting. It's highlighting the fact the multiple investor groups are interested in securing NHL teams and moving them to Hamilton. This is a HAMILTON story, not a Thrashers story.

Calm down, and leave the insults elsewhere.
I did read the dripping pile of crap you call "an article." It's speculative. It's conjecture. It specifically names "the Thrashers." It doesn't say "or any otherteam." The "article" says it is targeting the Thrashers. That makes it a Thrashers story as much as it makes it a Hamilton story.

Now, because you have an idiot journalist who can't be arsed to do as little research creaming all over himself after being handed this puzzle missing half of the pieces, you've got an internet rumor mill churning with excitement, and thousands of excited Southern Ontario kids who believe they'll have two teams in Hamilton in the next couple of years.

And you're telling me to calm down?

Look. I grew up a Red Wings fan. I still am a Red Wings fan. Yeah, a Wings fan where there was no NHL team located (I started following them, age 3, in 1983), nary any sort of hockey on TV at all until the Knights came to town, and in a place abandoned by the Flames. The Flames fans here know first hand what it's like to lose a team, and they're hopping mad about this so-called "story."

I instantly became a Thrashers fan once the expansion was announced. It was a dream come true for me -- finally, I could go see games in my own back yard instead of flying to Detroit to see my Wings at The Joe. Yeah, they've sucked far more often than they've done well, but I'll never forget my first Thrashers game.

Listen, how would you feel if this was a second Winnipeg team rumored to leave town? How would you feel if this was a second Denver team rumored to leave town?

Before telling me, or by proxy, us to "calm down" about some stupid rumor that only a failure at journalism would publish, how about you reflect on what it might be like if your beloved team moved away from your city. Put yourself in those shoes, then get back to me about "calming down."

The facts are, some group in Vancouver wants to move the Thrashers. It didn't name any other team, nor did it say "or some other team," it named the Thrashers. This group wants to secure an arena deal before having even sat down to talk to the current ownership. This is called speculative journalism at best, and it is only used in tabloids, those who suck at writing, and those looking to stir up crap where it isn't otherwise stirred.

Whichever one of these choices you want to select, it's still a failure of a piece, and the Thrashers moving is about as likely to happen as Bigfoot is to protect Princess Leia from a stampede of rabid Wookies while a group of Matrix Agents cheer from the sidelines.

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05-09-2009, 10:37 PM
  #62
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I didthe Thrashers moving is about as likely to happen as Bigfoot is to protect Princess Leia from a stampede of rabid Wookies while a group of Matrix Agents cheer from the sidelines.
Best.Line.Ever.

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05-09-2009, 11:15 PM
  #63
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I did read the dripping pile of crap you call "an article." It's speculative. It's conjecture. It specifically names "the Thrashers." It doesn't say "or any otherteam." The "article" says it is targeting the Thrashers. That makes it a Thrashers story as much as it makes it a Hamilton story.

Now, because you have an idiot journalist who can't be arsed to do as little research creaming all over himself after being handed this puzzle missing half of the pieces, you've got an internet rumor mill churning with excitement, and thousands of excited Southern Ontario kids who believe they'll have two teams in Hamilton in the next couple of years.

And you're telling me to calm down?

Look. I grew up a Red Wings fan. I still am a Red Wings fan. Yeah, a Wings fan where there was no NHL team located (I started following them, age 3, in 1983), nary any sort of hockey on TV at all until the Knights came to town, and in a place abandoned by the Flames. The Flames fans here know first hand what it's like to lose a team, and they're hopping mad about this so-called "story."

I instantly became a Thrashers fan once the expansion was announced. It was a dream come true for me -- finally, I could go see games in my own back yard instead of flying to Detroit to see my Wings at The Joe. Yeah, they've sucked far more often than they've done well, but I'll never forget my first Thrashers game.

Listen, how would you feel if this was a second Winnipeg team rumored to leave town? How would you feel if this was a second Denver team rumored to leave town?

Before telling me, or by proxy, us to "calm down" about some stupid rumor that only a failure at journalism would publish, how about you reflect on what it might be like if your beloved team moved away from your city. Put yourself in those shoes, then get back to me about "calming down."

The facts are, some group in Vancouver wants to move the Thrashers. It didn't name any other team, nor did it say "or some other team," it named the Thrashers. This group wants to secure an arena deal before having even sat down to talk to the current ownership. This is called speculative journalism at best, and it is only used in tabloids, those who suck at writing, and those looking to stir up crap where it isn't otherwise stirred.

Whichever one of these choices you want to select, it's still a failure of a piece, and the Thrashers moving is about as likely to happen as Bigfoot is to protect Princess Leia from a stampede of rabid Wookies while a group of Matrix Agents cheer from the sidelines.
No, I'm just telling you to calm down, not every Atlanta Thrashers fan. You're getting this bent out of shape over an article that indicates a group of investors have interest in purchasing a team in the unlikely event that the team goes up for sale.

The article isn't speculating on anything. It is reporting the intentions of a group of investors. You can criticize that investor group for going down a road that leads nowhere, but they are still expressing interest, and given that another investor is also expressing interest in the Hamilton area... it's news.

I understand what it is like to loose a hockey team in a city. St. John's has lost both an AHL franchise & a QMJHL franchise in a very short period of time. I've been through the fear, and constant news reports of teams moving... and this doesn't even rank anywhere near something that should make you this angry.

But anyways... I'm done. As you said, and I'm only going by what you, and other Thrasher fans have said in this thread (so I am listening to what you're saying)... there's not much to worry about regarding the team moving.

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:19 PM
  #64
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This is just a weird story. This group has already gotten their game plan together for moving the Thrashers and now they're talking to the city about it all. And according to DW, no one's even talked to the Thrashers about any of this. It's all one-sided - like this group can just pick whichever team it wants and have it. It's like there's absolutely no consideration for how any of this would affect Atlanta and the fans here. Everyone weeps over the Jets move as if it was some sort of national tragedy, but apparently it's okay to move the Thrashers and other Southern teams without blinking an eye.

I'm not too worried right now, but I'm getting pretty sick of the complete disregard for fans in non-tradiational markets. Gotta say that those players involved in that Vancouver group has lost some points in my book.

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05-09-2009, 11:35 PM
  #65
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It's all one-sided - like this group can just pick whichever team it wants and have it.
That's the Balsillie effect for you. It's the new fad in hostile takeovers, and if Balsillie is successful in Phoenix and establishes legal precedent, NO FRANCHISE IN THE LEAGUE IS SAFE. It may sound like I'm being a Chicken Little about it but it's the truth - anyone with deep enough pockets will be able to play Franchise Chess at their leisure.

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It's like there's absolutely no consideration for how any of this would affect Atlanta and the fans here. Everyone weeps over the Jets move as if it was some sort of national tragedy, but apparently it's okay to move the Thrashers and other Southern teams without blinking an eye.
...because we don't count. We're not "real" fans. We don't have the birthright to appreciate hockey on the same rarified level as "passionate" fans do. Apparently we are expected to see the logic of Canada owning hockey, meekly turn over our franchises to them, and then do our best to cheer for them long-distance (although that last part is wholly optional - like I said, we don't count so they don't care). In their eyes, they are the hockey-starved, underserved victims of our greed - a greed that holds their franchises prisoner in areas where they don't belong.

It's all very much a northern jihad, let me tell you. Sure, it's Crusades-era logic but hey, I guess when you're coming up with new words for snow for eight months of the year it tends to warp your outlook a bit..

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05-09-2009, 11:41 PM
  #66
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You're getting this bent out of shape over an article that indicates a group of investors have interest in purchasing a team the Thrashers in the unlikely event that the team goes up for sale.
Fixed that for you. You did read the article, right? Stop trying to change what this article said. You're reading lines that simply are not there. This Vancouver group specifically said they want to move The Thrashers. It did not say "or any team that goes up for sale."

Read the article. It's right there. The TSN "NHL Home" page even says "The Hamilton Thrashers?" on it, as if this is something that could conceivably occur. It's right there in plain, easy to read English.

And it's complete ********.

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05-10-2009, 12:02 AM
  #67
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Fixed that for you. You did read the article, right? Stop trying to change what this article said. You're reading lines that simply are not there. This Vancouver group specifically said they want to move The Thrashers. It did not say "or any team that goes up for sale."

Read the article. It's right there. The TSN "NHL Home" page even says "The Hamilton Thrashers?" on it, as if this is something that could conceivably occur. It's right there in plain, easy to read English.

And it's complete ********.
Oh, for the love of God. I was speaking in generalities. We've all come to the conclusion, that the team being talked about in the article is not in danger of moving. The article is talking about a team (I said a team, not any team... we all know the name of the team I'm talking about) being looked at by an investor group, the team in question not being up for sale.

Anyways man... good luck with it. I do hope the Thrashers can thrive in Atlanta. Despite comments by some, not you AFAIK, in this thread, Canadians are not out to take all the American franchises and put them in Canada. However, when a team is failing like the Coyotes and someone wants to move them up here... of course that's going to get people a bit excited.

If teams in Tampa, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. thrive in the NHL, it only makes the league that much stronger. Saying that, I don't think the league should try and support failed attempts, which appears is the case in Phoenix. I'm a pretty rational guy, and said the same thing when the QMJHL team left here (AHL team was another story, damned MLSE ), and I'd say the same thing about a Canadian team.

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05-10-2009, 01:41 AM
  #68
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But the fact that there is a market is what makes Phoenix or Atlanta far more attractive than Hamilton, or Winnipeg, or Quebec City... to a market that has one third the number of Phoenix's, and tremendously less than Atlantas,
I'm sorry... I have to stop you right here,

You're saying that a market that is starved for a Canadian team that isn't as far as Ottawa, but not the Toronto Maple Leafs, is not bigger than Atlanta's market?

I can bet cash that people from all over Ontario, Winnipeg, Quebec, and NY State would travel to a Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo, London team over a TML game. Hell... Canadian fans who hate the Leafs flock to Buffalo and Detroit to watch them play... so why wouldn't they rush to a young, developing team?

I'd say that market would be much more profitable, maybe not in TV ratings, but merchandise, concession and ticket sales. The latter of which would outweigh the former and more than compensate for it...



To paraphrase a quote from a famous movie: "How many Yotes/Thrashers fans do you have, do they fill your stadiums even if you lose? No, We have more hockey fans." While you guys may have a bigger population (I'm too lazy to work the numbers), we have more people paying, and watching these games.


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05-10-2009, 04:52 AM
  #69
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I'd say that market would be much more profitable, maybe not in TV ratings, but merchandise, concession and ticket sales. The latter of which would outweigh the former and more than compensate for it...
The argument is that putting a team in Hamilton doesn't really broaden the NHL's market, in terms of merchandise or TV ratings... and to a certain extent I agree with that. Moving a team into Hamilton is not going to create the same number of new hockey fans that a team in a large American market would... in reality it's just a rearrangement of current Canadian fans.

The issue really is, if the team isn't profitable (which is different from being a huge success), is it worth keeping the franchise there?

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05-10-2009, 07:14 AM
  #70
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One thing you have to realize about cities like Phoenix and Atlanta. A large part of their population came from somewhere else. They still have their loyalties to their teams where they used to live, and are fans of the local teams when it best suits them. Atlanta and Phoenix are bandwagon sports towns.

I remember going to Thrashers games the first few seasons and there would be times where you thought the Thrashers were the away team because there were so many fans wearing the visiting team's gear. I remember going to a game against the Pens about four years ago and a third of the fans were wearing Pens jerseys.

You can go to a Falcons/Hawks/Thrashers/Braves game and see folks that will be wearing the Atlanta stuff until their old team comes to town.

Winning breeds support in markets like these because folks already have a loyalty to another team. Or in some cases, the marketing machines of a league gets folks to become fans of an out of market team because of a player on the team (How many fans of the Lakers have even set foot in the State of California?). Or they become fans out of the popularity and success of the team (Red Sox Nation sure grew in size after the "curse" was lifted.).

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...orts_fans.html

Just because a market has these type of fans doesn't mean it's a bad market for a sport. Some of the teams in Atlanta have gotten smart and figured a way to take advantage of the bandwagon fans. They hike ticket prices for games against certain teams. The Hawks have done that with games against the Lakers and Cavs because those teams have the top superstar players in the league and are guaranteed sell-outs. The Braves jack up the ticket prices for games against the Yankees and Red Sox.

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05-10-2009, 10:06 AM
  #71
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The argument is that putting a team in Hamilton doesn't really broaden the NHL's market, in terms of merchandise or TV ratings... and to a certain extent I agree with that. Moving a team into Hamilton is not going to create the same number of new hockey fans that a team in a large American market would... in reality it's just a rearrangement of current Canadian fans.

The issue really is, if the team isn't profitable (which is different from being a huge success), is it worth keeping the franchise there?
What's the problem with rearranging Canadian fans when there are fans who will pack stadiums?

That's just like saying, well... we don't want to open up any more stores in that area, because those stores get sold out already. So let's open it up where it stays fully stocked all the time so we can lose money.

Why wouldn't you put a team where you know it's going to explode right away?


Honestly, if the Coyotes haven't caught on in 13 years in the league, they aren't going to... Look at San Jose and Anaheim, at least those markets are sustaining themselves. One of those teams barely even gets past the 1st round in the playoffs despite winning the season...

It's a case of the needs of the many vs. the wants of the few. Most of the teams are clamoring for a higher salary cap, and putting more teams in Canada would inflate the income, thus raising the cap... yet it doesn't materialize, because we're trying to beat hockey into the skulls of southern states.

You can't catch damp wood on fire, unfortunately... I'm not saying give up on the sunbelt experiment entirely, I'm just saying it hasn't worked in Atlanta or Phoenix. I doubt it would work in Vegas and it won't work in Kansas City. Going to weird hockey markets and expecting people who haven't seen the sport to catch on the bandwagon is just not smart, especially at this point in time.


Serve the market you know is going to be there steadily, then worry about the strange new worlds.

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05-10-2009, 10:50 AM
  #72
zyllyx
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Why wouldn't you put a team where you know it's going to explode right away?
Because that's one step forward for GTA and Hamilton/K-W and two steps back for the NHL and hockey in general.

You don't convert anyone by preaching to the choir.

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05-10-2009, 10:58 AM
  #73
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Because that's one step forward for GTA and Hamilton/K-W and two steps back for the NHL and hockey in general.

You don't convert anyone by preaching to the choir.
The NHL doesn't need to market itself to people who aren't interested.

Spread the NHL out EAST. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or West. Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon... There are plenty of cities all across Canada (not just in Ontario) that would sustain hockey teams.

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05-10-2009, 11:09 AM
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The NHL doesn't need to market itself to people who aren't interested.
...but it SHOULD market itself to people who don't know about it.

That's called GROWTH. And the league needs GROWTH.

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05-10-2009, 11:13 AM
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...but it SHOULD market itself to people who don't know about it.

That's called GROWTH. And the league needs GROWTH.
Doesn't really seem that way for the MLB... I don't see it pitching teams to Canada in an effort to GROW.

It seems they only pitch to traditional MLB markets... amazing.

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