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If the Coyotes move, do we move to the Western Conference?

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05-10-2009, 11:17 AM
  #76
The Sneak
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
Doesn't really seem that way for the MLB... I don't see it pitching teams to Canada in an effort to GROW.

It seems they only pitch to traditional MLB markets... amazing.

You're right. when they invented the World Baseball Classic they never left New York.


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05-10-2009, 11:18 AM
  #77
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You're right. when they invented the World Baseball Classic they never left Santa Fe.
Why don't you explain to me then, why there aren't more Canadian Baseball teams?

I can say for a fact that baseball is big in Canada... not as big as hockey, but there are plenty of people who would play/watch it.

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05-10-2009, 11:19 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
The NHL doesn't need to market itself to people who aren't interested.

Spread the NHL out EAST. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or West. Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon... There are plenty of cities all across Canada (not just in Ontario) that would sustain hockey teams.
You do realize revenue comes from attendance and TV contracts, right?
Those cities could give you the attendance, but they couldn't give you a large enough TV contract to help sustain the franchise.

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05-10-2009, 11:20 AM
  #79
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I don't really understand what the nationality of the original poster has to do with anything... but that's neither here nor there.
Unfortunately, it's always there.

I love Canada. Great country. Been all over eastern Canada. But I deplore their disrespect towards (what y'all call) "Sun Belt teams." Sick and tired of it. We all are. I am so sorry Canada lost Winnipeg and Quebec. There should definitely be teams in both cities: Quebec is one of the most amazing cities in North America, and there is absolutely nothing else to do in Winnipeg. Please bring teams back to those fair cities. And another one to the Toronto area so MLSE doesn't have a monopoly on hockey there.

Just keep your desperate hands off our team. Thank you.

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05-10-2009, 11:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by blankspace6 View Post
You do realize revenue comes from attendance and TV contracts, right?
Those cities could give you the attendance, but they couldn't give you a large enough TV contract to help sustain the franchise.
Why are Americans so focused on TV contracts?

Do you not realize that 4 of the top 5 in total league revenue (ticket and TV) are Canadian teams?

That argument seems falsely based, to me.

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05-10-2009, 11:25 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
The NHL doesn't need to market itself to people who aren't interested.

Spread the NHL out EAST. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or West. Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon... There are plenty of cities all across Canada (not just in Ontario) that would sustain hockey teams.
That's what junior hockey is for. The NHL takes real money, corporate money. And that's a shame, but it's the world we live in. I'd love to see a team in Halifax and one in Saskatchewan. But it's never, ever going to happen.

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05-10-2009, 11:25 AM
  #82
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That's what junior hockey is for. The NHL takes real money, corporate money. And that's a shame, but it's the world we live in. I'd love to see a team in Halifax and one in Saskatchewan. But it's never, ever going to happen.
You know that, I know that... but it's still nice to think about.

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05-10-2009, 11:26 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
Why are Americans so focused on TV contracts?
Ask Bettman. He's American. He makes the rules.

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05-10-2009, 11:28 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
Why are Americans so focused on TV contracts?

Do you not realize that 4 of the top 5 in total league revenue (ticket and TV) are Canadian teams?

That argument seems falsely based, to me.

because you go to population centers. They are hockey mad in Alaska but they'll never get an NHL team because there are no people there. If there were larger population centers in Canada they'd introduce MLB baseball there. You can have the Nationals if you can find one.

The NHL expansion model has always been discovering large population markets to grow the game. Initial expansion took them to 2 California markets and the American midwest. The league needs these frontiers to grow the game. I don't know why you can't understand this concept. Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 05-10-2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: leave out comments about the other poster, please
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05-10-2009, 11:29 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
You know that, I know that... but it's still nice to think about.
Yeah, I hear ya. Too bad the AHL left the Maritimes. Why did that happen? There used to be teams in Halifax, St. John, St. John's and Frederickon.

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05-10-2009, 11:30 AM
  #86
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Yeah, I hear ya. Too bad the AHL left the Maritimes. Why did that happen? There used to be teams in Halifax, St. John, St. John's and Frederickon.
They needed something to fill the Ricoh Coliseum... I know, it's stupid they moved them. I guess it made calling players up easier, or something. Cut down on travel costs,

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05-10-2009, 11:31 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by The Sneak View Post
because you go to population centers. They are hockey mad in Alaska but they'll never get an NHL team because there are no people there. If there were larger population centers in Canada they'd introduce MLB baseball there. You can have the Nationals if you can find one.
There used to be a team in Montreal not too long ago. Quite the population center, bigger than most MLB cities. They didn't make it. Why? Not sure, but I sure do remember them sucking. Bad. Not unlike our Thrashers. Hm....

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05-10-2009, 11:32 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by fatschoonerrat View Post
There used to be a team in Montreal not too long ago. Quite the population center, bigger than most MLB cities. They didn't make it. Why? Not sure, but I sure do remember them sucking. Bad. Not unlike our Thrashers. Hm....
The Nats sucked (oh sorry, the Expos), and sucked bad for many, many years... (as long as I can remember)

I don't even think they were repairing the stadium any more, near the end.

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05-10-2009, 11:40 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
Doesn't really seem that way for the MLB... I don't see it pitching teams to Canada in an effort to GROW.

It seems they only pitch to traditional MLB markets... amazing.
I think the MLB is making a mistake, then. Not surprising since Bud Selig makes Gary Bettman look like a prince.

Personally, I think moving the Expos to Washington was stupid. They should have built a real stadium in Montreal and kept the team there. But then, I'm not a fan of team relocation because of what it does to the fans left behind. And yes, that includes the Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques - but I came to be a hockey fan long after those teams had left Canada.

But continuing your analogy, let's say that we took an ass-awful MLB franchise and plopped it in, say, Saskatchewan. Through a combination of terrible drafting and even worse trade philosophies, the team rides the bottom rails and finishes 51-111. Along the way, it loses a ton of money because of a bad lease on its building and mismanagement from ownership. Do we then call the experiment in Saskatchewan a failure and say that Saskatchewan cannot support professional baseball?

And yet, that is what you are expecting us to do in Atlanta and Phoenix.

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05-10-2009, 11:44 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I think the MLB is making a mistake, then. Not surprising since Bud Selig makes Gary Bettman look like a prince.

Personally, I think moving the Expos to Washington was stupid. They should have built a real stadium in Montreal and kept the team there. But then, I'm not a fan of team relocation because of what it does to the fans left behind. And yes, that includes the Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques - but I came to be a hockey fan long after those teams had left Canada.

But continuing your analogy, let's say that we took an ass-awful MLB franchise and plopped it in, say, Saskatchewan. Through a combination of terrible drafting and even worse trade philosophies, the team rides the bottom rails and finishes 51-111. Along the way, it loses a ton of money because of a bad lease on its building and mismanagement from ownership. Do we then call the experiment in Saskatchewan a failure and say that Saskatchewan cannot support professional baseball?

And yet, that is what you are expecting us to do in Atlanta and Phoenix.
Riding that same analogy, they could turn into the Tampa Bay Rays too.

That's the beauty of sports, right? Everyone has a chance to win. Some teams are just better at it than others.

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05-10-2009, 10:05 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by LastCupUpNorth View Post
That's just like saying, well... we don't want to open up any more stores in that area, because those stores get sold out already. So let's open it up where it stays fully stocked all the time so we can lose money.
That's a horrible comparison, especially when it comes to TV ratings... which these days is much more relevant to growth than ticket sales.

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Originally Posted by fatschoonerrat View Post
Unfortunately, it's always there.

I love Canada. Great country. Been all over eastern Canada. But I deplore their disrespect towards (what y'all call) "Sun Belt teams." Sick and tired of it. We all are. I am so sorry Canada lost Winnipeg and Quebec. There should definitely be teams in both cities: Quebec is one of the most amazing cities in North America, and there is absolutely nothing else to do in Winnipeg. Please bring teams back to those fair cities. And another one to the Toronto area so MLSE doesn't have a monopoly on hockey there.

Just keep your desperate hands off our team. Thank you.
People in Winnipeg might disagree with your rather arrogant comment regarding their city. In the future you may be served better not categorizing an entire nation simply because a few people demonstrate a particular behavior.

The poster of the article from The Toronto Star, just posted it. He offered no commentary on it. And I have shown no disrespect to any of the southern NHL teams... unless you count disagreeing over the point of the article, but counting as disrespect would be foolish, since it wasn't.

I want all NHL teams in their current markets to survive. However, when a team continues to fail in their current market, I do think relocation is a possible solution. People seem content comparing the Coyotes situation with unrelated problems that occurred in Winnipeg & Quebec City. Could we move past that, and stop making it a Canada vs. America battle? My opinions on the Coyotes situation has little to do with the possible destination of the team (I'd be perfectly happy if they moved to Hartford)... but more with the viability of Phoenix as a hockey market.

Stop making this into something it's not. Stop trying to assume all Canadians think the same way, just because you've read a few articles on TSN's website.

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05-10-2009, 10:34 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Joe Canadian View Post
People in Winnipeg might disagree with your rather arrogant comment regarding their city. In the future you may be served better not categorizing an entire nation simply because a few people demonstrate a particular behavior.

...

Stop trying to assume all Canadians think the same way, just because you've read a few articles on TSN's website.
Touché on the arrogance.

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Old
05-10-2009, 11:15 PM
  #93
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That's a horrible comparison, especially when it comes to TV ratings... which these days is much more relevant to growth than ticket sales.
When enough people come to your games and buy your merchandise, you don't even need a television contract... Then again, having your own channel dedicated to your specific team doesn't need a contract either...

So this argument about TV ratings seems pretty bogus, just a jutted nail to constantly point out when people don't have anything else to complain about.

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05-11-2009, 11:35 AM
  #94
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I'm sorry... I have to stop you right here,

You're saying that a market that is starved for a Canadian team that isn't as far as Ottawa, but not the Toronto Maple Leafs, is not bigger than Atlanta's market?

I can bet cash that people from all over Ontario, Winnipeg, Quebec, and NY State would travel to a Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo, London team over a TML game. Hell... Canadian fans who hate the Leafs flock to Buffalo and Detroit to watch them play... so why wouldn't they rush to a young, developing team?

I'd say that market would be much more profitable, maybe not in TV ratings, but merchandise, concession and ticket sales. The latter of which would outweigh the former and more than compensate for it...



To paraphrase a quote from a famous movie: "How many Yotes/Thrashers fans do you have, do they fill your stadiums even if you lose? No, We have more hockey fans." While you guys may have a bigger population (I'm too lazy to work the numbers), we have more people paying, and watching these games.
Wait a sec here. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, but you're arguing here that the NHL should take a team away from one group of 4-5,000,000 fans who don't like a loser and put it close to 3-4,000,000 other fickle fans that don't like a loser?

You want to move a team based on appealing just to people who don't like the Leafs? Sounds dumb.

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05-11-2009, 11:49 AM
  #95
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Wait a sec here. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, but you're arguing here that the NHL should take a team away from one group of 4-5,000,000 fans who don't like a loser and put it close to 3-4,000,000 other fickle fans that don't like a loser?

You want to move a team based on appealing just to people who don't like the Leafs? Sounds dumb.
Personally, I don't see this mystery 4-5 million people that you claim to be actual fans...

Call me crazy, but if a team had THAT many fans, then the stadium would be full, regardless of how a team is performing... but that's just me.

Unless about 4.5 million of those fans are only fans when the wind blows the right way, which sounds about right.

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05-11-2009, 12:36 PM
  #96
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Personally, I don't see this mystery 4-5 million people that you claim to be actual fans...

Call me crazy, but if a team had THAT many fans, then the stadium would be full, regardless of how a team is performing... but that's just me.

Unless about 4.5 million of those fans are only fans when the wind blows the right way, which sounds about right.
Wrong. ... Not anywhere near that many. On either side. I'd say when the wind blows right we have maybe 500,000 people mildly interested. But who knows, really? What are important and measurable are box office numbers and corporate sponsorships. At the end of the day, Gary Bettman sees this as fertile ground, which it probably is.

The question for Southern Ontario is, how much more money does the league make by putting a team there? They don't care about the fans getting to see a hockey game in person for a half-reasonable price. They just want to know if dilluting the Leafs' profitability with another team will significantly add to the total pot or just spread the same total between two teams and dump the same total into the pot. I tend to believe the former, but you've also got intra-league politics to deal with (like MLSE). So again, who knows?

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05-11-2009, 12:46 PM
  #97
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Wrong. ... Not anywhere near that many. On either side. I'd say when the wind blows right we have maybe 500,000 people mildly interested. But who knows, really? What are important and measurable are box office numbers and corporate sponsorships. At the end of the day, Gary Bettman sees this as fertile ground, which it probably is.

The question for Southern Ontario is, how much more money does the league make by putting a team there? They don't care about the fans getting to see a hockey game in person for a half-reasonable price. They just want to know if dilluting the Leafs' profitability with another team will significantly add to the total pot or just spread the same total between two teams and dump the same total into the pot. I tend to believe the former, but you've also got intra-league politics to deal with (like MLSE). So again, who knows?
Bottom line, you can charge what you want for tickets, but you can only sell 19,800 of them.

Add another team 2 hours away, add another 18,000 seats and you've got that filled. So instead of making 2 million a game in southern ontario, all of a sudden you're making 4 million, or 5. They could even do "premium" pricing for rival games, which brings in even MORE money.

The marketing is seemingly limitless. The GTA has upwards of 5 million + in population, speckled around the GTA are millions more who may or may not be Leafs fans.

Throw in a team 2-3 hours outside of the GTA, and you've got a market who would rather stay home and pay top dollar than travel and pay top dollar, and there you go. Instant success.

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05-11-2009, 01:25 PM
  #98
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Bottom line, you can charge what you want for tickets, but you can only sell 19,800 of them.

Add another team 2 hours away, add another 18,000 seats and you've got that filled. So instead of making 2 million a game in southern ontario, all of a sudden you're making 4 million, or 5. They could even do "premium" pricing for rival games, which brings in even MORE money.

The marketing is seemingly limitless. The GTA has upwards of 5 million + in population, speckled around the GTA are millions more who may or may not be Leafs fans.

Throw in a team 2-3 hours outside of the GTA, and you've got a market who would rather stay home and pay top dollar than travel and pay top dollar, and there you go. Instant success.

You do realize that if Southern Ontario gets another team it's not going to be the Leafs, right?


Personally I think it's a fools mission to bring another team into S.O. The Leafs are so entrenched in the culture that it will be difficult to get the support for the new team. Ask the Devils how their efforts to gain support in the Rangers shadow has been going. They are one of the most successful on ice products in the last couple decades and they're still struggling for an identity. There are 20M people in that metro and the Rock is what? 3 miles from the Garden? Those people are Rangers fans first. Going to root for a rival simply because there is a ticket available isn't an option. Same with SO once the newness wears off.

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06-02-2009, 04:39 PM
  #99
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why not move the yotes to vegas... looking at that map the "true" west needs more teams... there is only 6 truely western teams the rest of the league is in the east....

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06-03-2009, 10:45 AM
  #100
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Quote:
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why not move the yotes to vegas... looking at that map the "true" west needs more teams... there is only 6 truely western teams the rest of the league is in the east....
I think the problem is anything west of Kansas City, MO (with some exceptions, of course) is pretty sparsely populated. Sure, you can plop a team down in Salt Lake City (slight chance it would work) and Seattle/Portland (would probably work), but what's next? Fargo, ND can't support a team. Neither can Billings, MT. Albuquerque, NM? Nope. I can't see Oklahoma City being able to support one, either.

The revenue stream just isn't there.

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