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Lecavalier or Thornton

View Poll Results: Who would you rather we go after?
Vinny Lecavalier 190 68.84%
Joe Thornton 86 31.16%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2009, 01:07 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
His development would be accellerated 10 fold.

Thornton is 2.5 mil cheaper per year over the next two seasons and then he's a FA. Lecavalier is 10 mil over the next SEVEN seasons. And in his 8th season he'll be making a million more than Thornton will next year.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can vote for Lecavalier except that San Jose would want a ton of players for Joe. Otherwise its a no-brainer here.
You need to learn about the salary cap my friend....the cap hit for both players is not all the different in the end. Lecavalier is only 500K more on the cap, what hurts potentially is the length of the contract.

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Old
05-06-2009, 02:00 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm shocked that its 10-2 Vinny actually.

I know that Joe hasn't been great in the playoffs but Vinny isn't that much better actually. And the difference in contracts is just nuts.

I think I'd actually go with Joe but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Umm
you are aware that Thornton sucks in the playoffs and that Vinny won the cup ?

Thornton has played on teams that were competing every year for the Presdient's Trophy. Then chocked in the playoffs.

Vinny has mostly played on a bad team that doesn't always make the playoffs.
Then they won the cup.


The only way to properly anazlyze the best choice is to evaluate various categories :

- Regular Season = Thornton
- Playoffs = Vinnie
- Contract = Thornton
- Best trading partner = San Jose
- Least likely to constantly cause media controversy = Thornton


Damn, looks like Thornton is the best choice.
Funny cause I voted for Vinny....

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05-06-2009, 02:04 PM
  #78
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I didn't read the poll's question correctly, I thought it said who's better, to which I answered Thornton.

Thornton is the better skilled player hands down, but I have doubts on whether or not he could handle the pressure in Mtl. His leadership skills are questionable as well considering he's never been able to lead some very talented team to the cup. In all fairness though, putting the entire blame on him is stupid.
I just think Thornton is a great player to have on your team, but in terms of leading and taking on pressure, he's more of a support role. He needs someone bigger in front of him to lead imo.

The problem with Vinny is his injuries, still a question mark as to how big of an impact they'll have on him. His contract is always a ridiculous one.
Finally, and most importantly IMO, is that fans see Vinny as a huge french superstar yet his average yearly production is 70pts. How are fans going to react if he only gets around that many points?..especially at his salary.
But, if we look at his post lockout production average, it's around 88pts. If paired all year with players like Tanguay and A.Kost, I wouldn't be surprised to see him reach 100pts again.

So, I'd take Vinny even though he has a disgusting contract.

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Old
05-06-2009, 02:12 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
- Least likely to constantly cause media controversy = Thornton
Just wanted to point out that 2 very young Belorussians, one of which extremely quiet, caused a media controversy just for knowing a guy linked to criminal activities.

So, if that can happen with them, anybody can cause a media controversy.

As was proven this year, the Mtl media has become a tabloid more than respectable professional journalism. Nobody is safe from the Tabloids.

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05-06-2009, 02:15 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Just wanted to point out that 2 very young Belorussians, one of which extremely quiet, caused a media controversy just for knowing a guy linked to criminal activities.

So, if that can happen with them, anybody can cause a media controversy.

As was proven this year, the Mtl media has become a tabloid more than respectable professional journalism. Nobody is safe from the Tabloids.
What I meant was a hometown superstar like Vinnie will be hounded by the media EVERY DAY. Look at how much controversy is created about him in MOntreal and he doesn't even play here.

There is no way that the media would create as much garbage about Thornton as they would about Vinnie.

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Old
05-06-2009, 04:12 PM
  #81
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Aside from his horrid contract, Vinny is a no brainer to me. Better goal scorer, more charisma, french superstar who could quiet down the unending whining about the lack of quebecois, and he actually did something significant in the play-offs when he had the chance to play.

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05-06-2009, 04:14 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
Aside from his horrid contract, Vinny is a no brainer to me. Better goal scorer, more charisma, french superstar who could quiet down the unending whining about the lack of quebecois, and he actually did something significant in the play-offs when he had the chance to play.
We don't have to quiet down the whining.

Do you want the cup or less whining?

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05-06-2009, 04:16 PM
  #83
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I'd rather have the cup. But the whining is still annoying.

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05-06-2009, 04:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
looking back over Vinny's career he really has only had a good plus minus rating the year TB won the Cup. It wasn't one of his higher points years with 66. Career wise he is a minus 89. Thornton is a plus 114

That contract Vinny has is outrageous whereas the Thornton contract leaves some financial room for the GM

I'm thinking Joe would be a better choice
Thornton played with FAR better teams yet never got past second round. This also explains the +/-, Vinny had a good +/- when they won the cup because they had a good team. His awful +/- two years ago can be explained by him playing almost 25-30 mins per game.

I vote Lecavalier.

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05-06-2009, 04:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Naoned View Post
I'd rather have the cup. But the whining is still annoying.
What I mean is that we shouldn't let the media influence team decisions.

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05-06-2009, 04:40 PM
  #86
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Vinnie no doubt, he speaks french.

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Old
05-06-2009, 04:57 PM
  #87
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Both players have equal talent and one (Thornton) is better in the regular season... based on that I could understand why some posters would want him instead of Vinny.

But this is where stats fail...

Vinny brings A LOT more to the habs than just stats. He's more passionate about the game, faster, actually drops the glove, he's a physical force everywhere on the ice while Big Joe doesn't do much physically, he's better in the playoffs because Thornton is so ****ing horrible...

Plus, of course, he's a local player. EVERYWHERE in the league, not only here, they'll chose the local player over the other one if they're equal... plus, for that matter, Vinny brings more...

So final choice : Vinny and by a long shot.

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05-06-2009, 05:00 PM
  #88
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Vinny hands down. Until Thornton removes the playoff choker label, his 100 point seasons in the regular season is not enough.

However, I would have picked neither if that was an option. We witnessed this past season how bad our d actually is. We need a true number three and a number five. Once this is settled, I think our team will play much better. Price will not be facing endless odd man rushes and the transition game will improve thereby allowing our forwards to attack with tenacity.

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05-06-2009, 05:08 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
Vinny hands down. Until Thornton removes the playoff choker label, his 100 point seasons in the regular season is not enough.

However, I would have picked neither if that was an option. We witnessed this past season how bad our d actually is. We need a true number three and a number five. Once this is settled, I think our team will play much better. Price will not be facing endless odd man rushes and the transition game will improve thereby allowing our forwards to attack with tenacity.
If we sucked defensively, it's because we have no system whatsoever. Individually, Markov, Hamrlik, Komisarek, Gorges and Scheider is very very solid.

Bring in a good coach and a defensive coach and we are in business.

We already have one the best defencemen in the league, a true superstar in Markov, what we lack is an offensive superstar.

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05-06-2009, 05:21 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caekslap View Post
What I mean is that we shouldn't let the media influence team decisions.
I agree, of course. Eventhough the whining also comes from a lot of fans. Who should not be more of an influence...

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05-06-2009, 05:23 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
If we sucked defensively, it's because we have no system whatsoever. Individually, Markov, Hamrlik, Komisarek, Gorges and Scheider is very very solid.

Bring in a good coach and a defensive coach and we are in business.

We already have one the best defencemen in the league, a true superstar in Markov, what we lack is an offensive superstar.
I respectfully disagree. Although we do need an offensive superstar, that d corp is unassuming and average at best. Without Markov, it is absolute garbage. Schnieder is 40 and very slow and Hamr is on the other side of his career. Moreover, Georges is a warrior but will be no better than a number 4. Keep him on the bottom pairing and he will do fine. That is why I see the need to help our d corps.

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05-06-2009, 05:31 PM
  #92
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I pick the 40 goals-45 assists player over the 20 goals-80 assists player without thinking twice.

Then i factor into the "choke" argument, the french guy on the other side, etc, and it's even clearer...

Lecavalier is a perfect match while half the fan base of Montreal believe Thornton is a proven choker (and even if it's not true, would you bet your house on Thornton coming in a hockey hot bed like Montreal and proves those fans are wrong?...)

As for the contract. 7.7M is fine by me. Who cares if he's getting paid 10M for the first x years... change nothing on the cap. And who cares if he's getting paid until 39 or so, at that point if it comes to that, buying him out would be a small pills to swallow if he has not retired yet.

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05-06-2009, 05:36 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Umm
you are aware that Thornton sucks in the playoffs and that Vinny won the cup ?

Thornton has played on teams that were competing every year for the Presdient's Trophy. Then chocked in the playoffs.

Vinny has mostly played on a bad team that doesn't always make the playoffs.
Then they won the cup.


The only way to properly anazlyze the best choice is to evaluate various categories :

- Regular Season = Thornton
- Playoffs = Vinnie
- Contract = Thornton
- Best trading partner = San Jose
- Least likely to constantly cause media controversy = Thornton


Damn, looks like Thornton is the best choice.
Funny cause I voted for Vinny....
you do realize Vinnie hasn't been that great in the playoffs either right. People need to end this myth that Lecavalier is some great playoff performer when it couldn't be further from the truth.

playoffs are a wash in my opinion.

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05-06-2009, 05:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Thornton played with FAR better teams yet never got past second round. This also explains the +/-, Vinny had a good +/- when they won the cup because they had a good team. His awful +/- two years ago can be explained by him playing almost 25-30 mins per game.

I vote Lecavalier.
A good plus minus when they won the Cup? At -2 in the playoffs, ranking 19th out of 22 on his team I would beg to differ. But then again with a worse team I guess it could have been even worse

While it would be attractive to have Vinny, folks have to stop trying to build him up into something he is not.

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05-06-2009, 05:46 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
I pick the 40 goals-45 assists player over the 20 goals-80 assists player without thinking twice.

Then i factor into the "choke" argument, the french guy on the other side, etc, and it's even clearer...

Lecavalier is a perfect match while half the fan base of Montreal believe Thornton is a proven choker (and even if it's not true, would you bet your house on Thornton coming in a hockey hot bed like Montreal and proves those fans are wrong?...)

As for the contract. 7.7M is fine by me. Who cares if he's getting paid 10M for the first x years... change nothing on the cap. And who cares if he's getting paid until 39 or so, at that point if it comes to that, buying him out would be a small pills to swallow if he has not retired yet.
except your Lecavalier is a PPG player when reality most of his seasons he has been well under a PPG while Big Joe is consistently over a PPG.

Your playoff "choker" has a .03 PPG pace lower in the playoffs than the playoff legend Lecavalier and if you take out the playoffs when Joe was 19, his would be even better.

Lecavalier has two things on Thornton. Natural goal scoring and in the case of the Canadiens, birth place. Thats it.

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05-06-2009, 05:53 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
Vinny for many reasons....

1. Get over the contract BS people. It's a difference of $500,000 on the cap and Vinny would be locked in longterm whereas Joe would be gone after 2 years. I like Vinny's contract better.

2. You can't compare stats like +/- when Joe played on good Boston & San Jose teams while Vinny played on quite a few terrible Tampa teams. From 02-07 Vinny's +/- was +25.

3. Vinny's production all year was hampered by injury and he had surgery to correct it just before the season ended. He will be an 80-90 point guy for quite some time. Since 2002 he has had 486 pts in 481 games, taking into account his latest injury this past season that's pretty good.

4. Vinny is a more balanced player, has more heart, and is more of a competitor than Joe.

5. Maybe the Montreal media will s t f u about non-frenchies on the habs.

Did I convert any Joe voters?
1. The length of that contract is a killer.

2. Vinny a plus minus of +25 from 02/03 to 06/07??? Stretching matters a tad there. His successive scores from 02 to 07 were: 0, +23, 0, +2. Those 4 seasons were bracketed by a -18 and -17. So one normal good season for a player at +23, neutral in 4, horrible in every other year -19, -25, -26, -18, -17, -9

3. Is his health going to be better?

4. balanced? Anything but

5. If Vinny came to Montreal and didn't walk on water, the media would have plenty to say

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Old
05-06-2009, 07:28 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Mother Pucker View Post
His ppg production in the last 4 years is close to a ppg...sometimes it is best not to believe what you here about certain players..
Why only consider the last 4 years? Why only take the good and not the bad, only to showcase our favourite? It's a two way sword...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
I pick the 40 goals-45 assists player over the 20 goals-80 assists player without thinking twice.

Then i factor into the "choke" argument, the french guy on the other side, etc, and it's even clearer...

Lecavalier is a perfect match while half the fan base of Montreal believe Thornton is a proven choker (and even if it's not true, would you bet your house on Thornton coming in a hockey hot bed like Montreal and proves those fans are wrong?...)

As for the contract. 7.7M is fine by me. Who cares if he's getting paid 10M for the first x years... change nothing on the cap. And who cares if he's getting paid until 39 or so, at that point if it comes to that, buying him out would be a small pills to swallow if he has not retired yet.
Great post. Add to that the fact that the cap hit is very similar and that we would be guaranteed to have Lecavalier for many years, while Thornton would become a UFA in two years... and what would his cap hit be at that time?

It's a no-brainer and the poll clearly shows it... Lecavalier hands down.

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05-06-2009, 09:46 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by lhf1 View Post
They're both great players, I choose Lecavalier because of his better playoff performances.
Lecavalier hasn't been much better. Vinny is .73 pts per game in the playoffs and Joe is .7 per game. Basically, its insignificant.

And for all those yelling about Vinny having won a cup, he had 16 pts in 23 games and was 4th in team scoring. Not bad, but not great either.

Thorton's avg drops significantly btw because of 2004 when he had broken ribs and scored 0 points in 7 games. Apart from 2004 and his rookie season, he's close to a point per game in the playoffs actually.

See for yourself.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thornjo01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lecavvi01.html

Lecavalier isn't as good in the playoffs as people are saying and Joe isn't nearly as bad. Vinny scores more goals but I don't think it warrants his crazy contract.

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05-06-2009, 09:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Lecavalier and it's not even close,we are going to add a guy that doesn't show up when needed the most?Joe would get ripped in Montreal and it was already said he escaped the media from Boston which is like 3 reporters,imagine in Montreal when they follow him home...
I keep hearing this but I don't see anything to back it up. Take out 2004 and Joe outpoints Vinny in the playoffs. His contract is for far less and he has a Hart trophy. How in the world is it "not even close?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
I can't believe how stats are thrown around in this topic. Sometimes I wonder if people still watch the games.

I mean, saying Lecavalier was only the 4th best player because of the stats the year they won the Cup. We certainly didn't watch the same finals. Lecavalier was just unbelievable.
He was great against us but apart from that he wasn't really all that good. You're going overboard here.
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Originally Posted by tchendoh View Post
Thornton is not the same player when it comes to playoffs hockey. He can't adjust to the playoffs style. I think he will get it in the next year or two though. But still this year, it was so brutal and drastically different than in regular season.
He's been close to a point per game. Yes, that's below what he's done in the reg season but he's not that bad.

I have no problem with somebody saying that they'd say Vinny is the better player. But its awfully close. The biggest difference is in the contracts and I can't see how people can take Vinny once that's factored in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs12max View Post
look at thornton's stat vs lecavalier's stats:

thornton: 842 points in 836 games.

Lecavaliers: 669 in 787.

I don't know how you can think that lecavalier is better.

Lecavalier is a career minus 89 !!! -89 !!!

Thornton is a career plus 114 !!! +114


Lecavalier - 89 vs thornton + 114 ..what do you want??????

here's from espn sports

While concerns over Jason Spezzaís plus/minus may be speculative, there is tangible evidence to be presented when it comes to Lecavalier. Among the most offensively gifted players in the game, Lecavalierís minus-17 was a big blight on an otherwise terrific campaign. The Lightning added a whole bunch of offense during the offseason but didnít make many improvements defensively and may have even taken a hit by shipping out Brad Lukowich and Dan Boyle for Matt Carle and Ty Wishart. With more options to score in Tampa Bay as well, Lecavalier may have to share some of the bounty. "Vinny" is still a fantasy stud, but that dead weight of a plus/minus keeps him a step behind some of the other top centers.

in fantasy drafts, most people take thornton at the 11th position, while they take lecavalier at the 20th position...it tells a lot.
Fantasy is a lot different from reality.

+/- is a team stat. Look at some guys who are +20 one season and then get traded to a bad team and wind up -20 the very next year. Look at Zedeno Chara after he left the Sens for a bad Boston team. He had been a +20 guy for years, then he went to Boston and he's -20. Its not like he forgot how to play defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
You need to learn about the salary cap my friend....the cap hit for both players is not all the different in the end. Lecavalier is only 500K more on the cap, what hurts potentially is the length of the contract.
You need to read my posts more carefully my friend. Nowhere did I talk about cap hit. I realize the cap hit is close... that's not the issue here. Its the length of the contract.

Vinny's contract will have him getting 7.5 into his early 40s. That's an albatross we don't need. And if you think that those real dollars (ten million over the next seven seasons) won't have ownership thinking twice about splurging on other players, think again. That's a ridiculous amount of money to throw at a player who's best years will be long behind him.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-06-2009 at 10:13 PM.
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Old
05-06-2009, 10:21 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Umm
you are aware that Thornton sucks in the playoffs and that Vinny won the cup ?
Ummmm

Yeah, everyone knows about the cup win. Just because Vinny was part of the cup winning team it doesn't mean that he's the better player. Lanny McDonald won the cup in '89, do you think the Flames wouldn't have rather had Steve Yzerman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Thornton has played on teams that were competing every year for the Presdient's Trophy. Then chocked in the playoffs.
They said the same thing about Yzerman. Both of these guys put up decent numbers while their teams lost. The only year that Thornton really "choked" was 2004 and he had broken ribs and shouldn't have even been playing.

I'm not saying that he's "Mr. Clutch", far from it. But I don't think Vinny's been much better. Its pretty close and for the money I don't see how we could go with Vinny.

The only way it could be justified would be if Tampa asks for nothing in return (possible) and San Jose asks for the vault (likely.) That's the real wildcard here. What would we have to give up?

That being equal though, its gotta be Joe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
Vinny has mostly played on a bad team that doesn't always make the playoffs.
Then they won the cup.
So what?

He didn't lead them to it. He was the 4th leading scorer on that team. Freddy Modin won the cup that year too and he scored more than Vinny did. Does that mean that he's better than Thornton too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
The only way to properly anazlyze the best choice is to evaluate various categories :

- Regular Season = Thornton
- Playoffs = Vinnie
- Contract = Thornton
- Best trading partner = San Jose
- Least likely to constantly cause media controversy = Thornton


Damn, looks like Thornton is the best choice.
Funny cause I voted for Vinny....
Guess you'll have to change your vote.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-06-2009 at 10:32 PM.
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