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Lecavalier or Thornton

View Poll Results: Who would you rather we go after?
Vinny Lecavalier 190 68.84%
Joe Thornton 86 31.16%
Voters: 276. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:10 PM
  #101
11alias11
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
1. The length of that contract is a killer.

2. Vinny a plus minus of +25 from 02/03 to 06/07??? Stretching matters a tad there. His successive scores from 02 to 07 were: 0, +23, 0, +2. Those 4 seasons were bracketed by a -18 and -17. So one normal good season for a player at +23, neutral in 4, horrible in every other year -19, -25, -26, -18, -17, -9

3. Is his health going to be better?

4. balanced? Anything but

5. If Vinny came to Montreal and didn't walk on water, the media would have plenty to say
1. the length of that contract is a positive. The cap may go down year after next, but after that it will continue to go up as NHL revenues increase. I guarantee you in 4-5 years Vinny at 7.7 mil cap hit will be great value. Also, I like the idea of locking down someone of his calibre long term. Would you prefer he walks off as a UFA in 2 years?

2. All his - years were when Tampa had a terrible team. You can't say a guy is bad because his team was bad. Pre 2002 the team's record since Vinny arrived was 89-188. Between 02-07 it was 169-113. From 07-09 it was 55-82. Bottom line, when Vinny plays on a winning team he is not a detriment to it's success.

3. Chances are, yes. It's not the type of injury that is recurring (groin, knee) it was a wrist and Boyle's wrist looks just fine to me.

4. He is more balanced than Thornton. Thornton is an assist guy and that's about it. Vinny gets goals, assists, is a physical force, is not afraid to drop them, and has a lot more heart than Jumbo Joe.

5. That's about the only correct thing about your post.

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Old
05-07-2009, 04:47 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

You need to read my posts more carefully my friend. Nowhere did I talk about cap hit. I realize the cap hit is close... that's not the issue here. Its the length of the contract.

Vinny's contract will have him getting 7.5 into his early 40s. That's an albatross we don't need. And if you think that those real dollars (ten million over the next seven seasons) won't have ownership thinking twice about splurging on other players, think again. That's a ridiculous amount of money to throw at a player who's best years will be long behind him.
You went on about him making 10M which is not important as I stated what is important is the length. After those first 6-7 years he can retired and be off the book etc. You also need to learn how to read as he will not be making 7.5M into his early 40s. This contract only takes him to 40 and the final 3-4 years he makes well under 7.5M which was the idea to bring the cap hit down.

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05-07-2009, 06:12 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Lecavalier hasn't been much better. Vinny is .73 pts per game in the playoffs and Joe is .7 per game. Basically, its insignificant.

And for all those yelling about Vinny having won a cup, he had 16 pts in 23 games and was 4th in team scoring. Not bad, but not great either.

Thorton's avg drops significantly btw because of 2004 when he had broken ribs and scored 0 points in 7 games. Apart from 2004 and his rookie season, he's close to a point per game in the playoffs actually.

See for yourself.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...thornjo01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lecavvi01.html

Lecavalier isn't as good in the playoffs as people are saying and Joe isn't nearly as bad. Vinny scores more goals but I don't think it warrants his crazy contract.
I agree with your take.

Frankly there is not much to separate the two in terms of playoffs. TB would have probably won with Joe playing in Vinny's place anyway

Realistically despite all of Vinny's scoring, he has had one bonafide plus minus season at +23

Looking back at his regulars seasons he routinely ranks in the 700 to 800 range in the league for +/-.

The main distinction I see between Joe and Vinny is that Thornton has usually managed to maintain some degree of two way play

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05-07-2009, 06:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
1. the length of that contract is a positive. The cap may go down year after next, but after that it will continue to go up as NHL revenues increase. I guarantee you in 4-5 years Vinny at 7.7 mil cap hit will be great value. Also, I like the idea of locking down someone of his calibre long term. Would you prefer he walks off as a UFA in 2 years?

2. All his - years were when Tampa had a terrible team. You can't say a guy is bad because his team was bad. Pre 2002 the team's record since Vinny arrived was 89-188. Between 02-07 it was 169-113. From 07-09 it was 55-82. Bottom line, when Vinny plays on a winning team he is not a detriment to it's success.

3. Chances are, yes. It's not the type of injury that is recurring (groin, knee) it was a wrist and Boyle's wrist looks just fine to me.

4. He is more balanced than Thornton. Thornton is an assist guy and that's about it. Vinny gets goals, assists, is a physical force, is not afraid to drop them, and has a lot more heart than Jumbo Joe.

5. That's about the only correct thing about your post.
1. It is pretty much a given to most folks that the lengh of the deal is poison. Towards the end you are stuck with that Cap hit even if he quits, gets injured, waived etc

2. You touted his 4 years +25, which was pretty much all from one season. Unfortunately you still ignore most of that was concentrated in one year at +23. The other three seasons he was 0, 0, and +2 on a team that finished in the playoffs all three years. So the best that Vinny can do on a good team is to be around zero plus minus in 3 seasons! In 02/03 TB was 3rd in the east, Vinny was a "zero" with 78 pts in 80 games (33G and 45A). Joe had 101 pts (36 G and 65 A) in 77 games +12 on a 7th place Bruins team!

3. There are many types of wrist injuries. You can't tell anything yet

4. Vinny is an offensive player. His other stats for hits and blocked shots aren't better than Joe's. Vinny has absolutely no inclination to play two way hockey. There is no balance there at all. I saw Thornton play against Montreal for Boston when he had to wear a flack jacket for a rib injury. He took a beating from the Habs and the press but he made no excuses. I see no edge for Vinny in the heart dept

5. If you had simply agreed it would have been cool, but instead you are 0 for 5


Last edited by JrHockeyFan: 05-07-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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05-07-2009, 06:41 PM
  #105
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i hate the obsession people seem to have with landing lecalvier. i guarantee there are some people on here who would be willing to to take a cap hit of 15 mil a year to have him. tampa bay signed him with that AMAZING contract let them keep him.

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05-07-2009, 07:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
You went on about him making 10M which is not important as I stated what is important is the length.
I said his contract was too long and 10 million (cap hit or not) is too much cash to be forking out for a guy who will be in his mid to late 30s. The cap hit after those years at 7.5 is still brutal. And to those who suggest we just waive him after he's outlived his usefulness, we'll still have to pay half of that cap hit. Its a terrible deal.

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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
After those first 6-7 years he can retired and be off the book etc. You also need to learn how to read as he will not be making 7.5M into his early 40s. This contract only takes him to 40 and the final 3-4 years he makes well under 7.5M which was the idea to bring the cap hit down.
Dude, I said he's making 10 mil over the next seven seasons. The reference of 7.5 at 40 years old is the cap hit. Are you okay with this now?

Either way its a horrible deal.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-07-2009 at 07:28 PM.
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05-07-2009, 07:32 PM
  #107
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One thing that the Thornton side is not taking into consideration is that the asking price for both players would be around the same in my opinion. Because of that, what if Thornton walks at the end of his current contract? Or if we re-sign him, what will be his cap hit then?

With Lecavalier, we KNOW what the cap hit will be and for a long time. We KNOW that he'll be with us which makes our "investment", the players given in return, will be a better return.

Although I understand that the difference in points per game is similar between the two players, no one here will convince me that their style and/or impact has been the same. Lecavalier is much more of a physical presence and he is noticeable for the right reasons out there, which isn't the case for Thornton. Heck, Lecavalier has won more playoffs' series in one year than Thornton has his entire career!

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05-07-2009, 07:40 PM
  #108
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One thing that the Thornton side is not taking into consideration is that the asking price for both players would be around the same in my opinion. Because of that, what if Thornton walks at the end of his current contract? Or if we re-sign him, what will be his cap hit then?
He'd be 32 years old. He's not going to command 10 million a season. Even if we signed him for the same amount of money over say... five seasons, its STILL a much better deal because we aren't stuck with a cap hit of 7.5 for a player who's 40 years old.

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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
With Lecavalier, we KNOW what the cap hit will be and for a long time. We KNOW that he'll be with us which makes our "investment", the players given in return, will be a better return.
So your argument is "Hey, at least we KNOW we'll be getting screwed for at least five years"?

That makes zero sense.

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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Although I understand that the difference in points per game is similar between the two players, no one here will convince me that their style and/or impact has been the same. Lecavalier is much more of a physical presence and he is noticeable for the right reasons out there, which isn't the case for Thornton.
If somebody argues that Vinny is better than Joe... fair enough. They're pretty close and Vinny does score more goals. Lecavalier is a great player.

I just don't think there's nearly enough difference between these guys to justify the insane contract that Vinny brings with him.
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Heck, Lecavalier has won more playoffs' series in one year than Thornton has his entire career!
Dude, you can't argue on one hand that Vinny's +/- can't be compared to Joe because of their respective teams and then turn around and do the opposite when comparing Vinny's cup win.

That line of argument has been rebutted, just give it up. He didn't lead them to the cup, Richards did. He was outpointed by Freddy Modin.

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05-07-2009, 07:42 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
1. It is pretty much a given to most folks that the lengh of the deal is poison. Towards the end you are stuck with that Cap hit even if he quits, gets injured, waived etc

2. You touted his 4 years +25, which was pretty much all from one season. Unfortunately you still ignore most of that was concentrated in one year at +23. The other three seasons he was 0, 0, and +2 on a team that finished in the playoffs all three years. So the best that Vinny can do on a good team is to be around zero plus minus in 3 seasons! In 02/03 TB was 3rd in the east, Vinny was a "zero" with 78 pts in 80 games (33G and 45A). Joe had 101 pts (36 G and 65 A) in 77 games +12 on a 7th place Bruins team!

3. There are many types of wrist injuries. You can't tell anything yet

4. Vinny is an offensive player. His other stats for hits and blocked shots aren't better than Joe's. Vinny has absolutely no inclination to play two way hockey. There is no balance there at all. I saw Thornton play against Montreal for Boston when he had to wear a flack jacket for a rib injury. He took a beating from the Habs and the press but he made no excuses. I see no edge for Vinny in the heart dept

5. If you had simply agreed it would have been cool, but instead you are 0 for 5

1. Agree to disagree. I don't know why you wouldn't want a guy locked up long term. Are we all aware that the total cap for a team will likely go up? So this year his cap hit is about 13% of the total cap but in 4-5 years it could be under 10% of the total cap. Look at Crosby. His cap hit is 8.7 which isn't bad now, but in a few years that will be a bargain compared to what other lesser players will make.

2. Whoosh! Right over your head man. You completely missed my point that +/- is a team stat and if you think a +/- of 0, 0, +2 is a negative thing give me some of what you're smoking.

3. Yeah you're right that there are many types of wrist injuries, but I'm willing to bet that the kind of injury you are able to play through for an entire year isn't major.

4. Yeah, playing through an entire year with a team going nowhere, while having a wrist injury which needs surgery, shows no heart whatsoever.

5. Uh I did agree with your last point. Again, with the smoking thing. Looks like you're 0-5

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05-07-2009, 07:47 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
1. Agree to disagree. I don't know why you wouldn't want a guy locked up long term.
The answer is obvious, he's making too much cash over too long a period of time.

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Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
Are we all aware that the total cap for a team will likely go up?
In this economy? I wouldn't count those chickens before they're hatched. A lot of teams are losing boatloads of cash, look at what's happening in Phoenix. If the cap goes down its just that much worse.

And even if it did go up, 7.5 for a player who's 40 years old is ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
So this year his cap hit is about 13% of the total cap but in 4-5 years it could be under 10% of the total cap. Look at Crosby. His cap hit is 8.7 which isn't bad now, but in a few years that will be a bargain compared to what other lesser players will make.
Sure... but he'll be 25 or 26 years old. Vinny will be 40 by the time his contract's up. And Sid's contract is a bargain as it is today. The two aren't comparable.

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05-07-2009, 07:48 PM
  #111
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i'd rather have the guy that we can keep for ten years, you would too when after july 1st we lose pretty much all UFA we have (that are of some values) and can sign any other, meaning that this team is going down the drain fast, and i'd rather do that with a guy who has, yes, a high cap and a huge contract, but someone who's use to play on a crappy team and can perform and that the fan will still like for the dark years to come...

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05-07-2009, 09:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
I agree with your take.

Frankly there is not much to separate the two in terms of playoffs. TB would have probably won with Joe playing in Vinny's place anyway
Vinny and Khabibulin were the reasons why they got past the Habs. Would Thornton have gotten a single point?

You people are really dismissing what Lecavalier did that year, his playoffs are what brought him his first lucrative contract and why people were saying he was break out soon. And he did. He might not have gotten the most points, but he did all the little things that go unoticed to people who don't pay attention.

Anyone who thinks Lecavalier wasn't a big, big part of that cup win needs to recheck those tapes. The guy is one of the most complete players in the league, not a cream puff in a big body like Thornton(who's also an amazing player btw, I'd take any of the two).

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05-07-2009, 09:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Kareem View Post
Vinny and Khabibulin were the reasons why they got past the Habs. Would Thornton have gotten a single point?

You people are really dismissing what Lecavalier did that year, his playoffs are what brought him his first lucrative contract and why people were saying he was break out soon. And he did. He might not have gotten the most points, but he did all the little things that go unoticed to people who don't pay attention.

Anyone who thinks Lecavalier wasn't a big, big part of that cup win needs to recheck those tapes. The guy is one of the most complete players in the league, not a cream puff in a big body like Thornton(who's also an amazing player btw, I'd take any of the two).
give it up. vinny was not a big reason for their success. he showed up in one series, that was it. stop trying to build a legend out of a 70 point player.

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05-07-2009, 09:42 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
You went on about him making 10M which is not important as I stated what is important is the length. After those first 6-7 years he can retired and be off the book etc. You also need to learn how to read as he will not be making 7.5M into his early 40s. This contract only takes him to 40 and the final 3-4 years he makes well under 7.5M which was the idea to bring the cap hit down.
Get your facts straight before postng idiocies.

The team will pay Lecavalier 10M per year starting next season through the 15-16 season. The season after that, at which point he'll be 36, his salary will decrease to 8.5 million. The last three seasons of his contract will bring him 4M, 1.5M and 1M respectively.
We are talking about his salary here. The number that will be on his paycheck.

Cap hit is a totally different thing. It's not something between the hockey club and Lecavalier. It is a way for the NHL to ensure a fair salary cap rule.
7.5 M is the average amount he will be making each year if you look at his contract as a whole. ( 75M / 10 years ) Therefore, for the duration of Lecavalier's contract, the team will be forced to spend 7.5M less on the rest of the roster.

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05-07-2009, 09:55 PM
  #115
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Once and for all:

PLAYOFF PPG *(points per game)

Lecavalier: 0.73 - Includes a cup-winning year -

Thornton: 0.70 - Includes series during which he played with broken ribs -


Funny how many of you dismiss all stats in Lecavalier's case, saying he helped his team by doing 'little things', but when it comes to Thornton, he is declared a 'choker'.

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05-07-2009, 10:03 PM
  #116
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Thronton.

Vinny's contract is ridiculous. He'll never be a 100p player anymore.

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05-07-2009, 10:09 PM
  #117
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If Joe Thornton were Jose Thortoneau, he would win in a landslide.

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05-07-2009, 10:10 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
give it up. vinny was not a big reason for their success. he showed up in one series, that was it. stop trying to build a legend out of a 70 point player.
Ok . Does it really matter? He's a great player, Brind'Amour was "just" a 50-70 point player but he was still an awesome guy to have on your team, moreso than Thornton in the playoffs. Vinny was a big reason for their success, he wasn't legend(never said he was), but he was really good. Then again FOTS, I've seen so many crazy posts from you I don't know what else to say about this. Right or wrong, you've pretty much made up your mind about this.

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05-07-2009, 10:23 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caekslap View Post
Funny how many of you dismiss all stats in Lecavalier's case, saying he helped his team by doing 'little things', but when it comes to Thornton, he is declared a 'choker'.
Well the difference here is Lecavalier did do those little things, while Thornton did not. I think you really need to watch cup finals year after year to really appreciate just how important every players contribution is. To actually think the Lightning could have won with their best/second best/third best(whatever you want to think of him as at the time) forward playing "average" to me is ludicrous. It's really misunderstand what you need to do to win. I guess that's why when you see Thornton with a point on the scoreboard yet didn't stand out in any way while Lecavalier hit, fought, took hits(which is more important than giving hits) and backchecked you think Joe had a better game.

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05-07-2009, 10:36 PM
  #120
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Well the difference here is Lecavalier did do those little things, while Thornton did not. I think you really need to watch cup finals year after year to really appreciate just how important every players contribution is. To actually think the Lightning could have won with their best/second best/third best(whatever you want to think of him as at the time) forward playing "average" to me is ludicrous. It's really misunderstand what you need to do to win. I guess that's why when you see Thornton with a point on the scoreboard yet didn't stand out in any way while Lecavalier hit, fought, took hits(which is more important than giving hits) and backchecked you think Joe had a better game.
Lecavalier was arguably less important than Fedotenko on that cup run.

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05-07-2009, 10:38 PM
  #121
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Ok . Does it really matter? He's a great player, Brind'Amour was "just" a 50-70 point player but he was still an awesome guy to have on your team, moreso than Thornton in the playoffs. Vinny was a big reason for their success, he wasn't legend(never said he was), but he was really good. Then again FOTS, I've seen so many crazy posts from you I don't know what else to say about this. Right or wrong, you've pretty much made up your mind about this.
there's nothing wrong with being "just" a 70 point player, but the truth is Lecavalier has never been the team's best player and been a factor at all. In his only season as an elite player the team finished 7th and he didn't exactly do the little things as you put it. To me little things when you are supposed to be an elite player is simply underachieving. If we were looking for a guy to do little things we'd just bring back Kosto. We aren't looking to dish out 7.5 million dollars because Lecavalier does the little things. Let me put this another way. Would you take Travis Zajac over Marc Savard because Koivu does the little things? The difference between Savard and Zajac is about the same as between Joe and Vince.


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05-07-2009, 10:46 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
In this economy? I wouldn't count those chickens before they're hatched. A lot of teams are losing boatloads of cash, look at what's happening in Phoenix. If the cap goes down its just that much worse.

And even if it did go up, 7.5 for a player who's 40 years old is ridiculous.
Yes, in this economy. The next 2 years the cap is expected to be pretty close to what it is now, and will go up after that. It's tied directly to total NHL revenue, and you can bet if the Coyotes move to Southern Ontario instead of losing $30 million they'll probably profit $30 million. That's a positive change of $60 mil. Each Canadian team accounts for about 5% of the toal NHL revenue adding another Canadian team will only boost total revenue. And the total revenues next year will probably be similar to this past year which means the cap will not change much. Anyways, I was talking about 4-5 years down the road his contract being a bargain, not next season. Just how long do you think this recession will last?

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05-07-2009, 10:51 PM
  #123
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Ok . Does it really matter? He's a great player, Brind'Amour was "just" a 50-70 point player but he was still an awesome guy to have on your team, moreso than Thornton in the playoffs. Vinny was a big reason for their success, he wasn't legend(never said he was), but he was really good. Then again FOTS, I've seen so many crazy posts from you I don't know what else to say about this. Right or wrong, you've pretty much made up your mind about this.
For the record, I think Vinny is an elite player and yes he'd be fantastic in Montreal. But he's not going to be any better than he is right now and he's reached the half life of his career. He'd be worth the contract for a few years and then we'd probably regret it.

Is he worth what he's being paid now? 10 mil is a lot of cash, 7.5 on the cap hit is also pretty heavy. He's probably overpaid even now but it wouldn't be bad enough to turn him down except that the contract is for way too long. There's no way that the people voting for him now would be saying the same thing six or seven years from now when we're stuck with an over the hill player making way too much money with four years still left on his deal.

Thornton is a much better option here. Even if we agree that Vinny is a little bit better, he's not worth that much more than Thornton is.

And I'm sorry but Thornton would improve our younger guys (esp Kostitysn) game tremendously. We've got wingers with good potential and I think a playmaker of his capability might actually be better for their development.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-07-2009 at 11:00 PM.
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05-07-2009, 10:55 PM
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Yes, in this economy. The next 2 years the cap is expected to be pretty close to what it is now, and will go up after that. It's tied directly to total NHL revenue, and you can bet if the Coyotes move to Southern Ontario instead of losing $30 million they'll probably profit $30 million. That's a positive change of $60 mil. Each Canadian team accounts for about 5% of the toal NHL revenue adding another Canadian team will only boost total revenue. And the total revenues next year will probably be similar to this past year which means the cap will not change much. Anyways, I was talking about 4-5 years down the road his contract being a bargain, not next season. Just how long do you think this recession will last?
The Coyotes aren't coming to Hamilton anytime soon.

As for the cap, it will probably go down before it goes up at least in the short term. And "the great recession" could last much longer than you think.

You're making assumptions that nobody can predict. Nobody knows what's going to happen with that cap.

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05-07-2009, 10:57 PM
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For the record, I think Vinny is an elite player and yes he'd be fantastic in Montreal. But he's not going to be any better than he is right now and he's reached the half life of his career.

Is he worth what he's being paid now? 10 mil is a lot of cash, 7.5 on the cap hit is also pretty heavy. He's probably overpaid even now but it wouldn't be bad enough to turn him down except that the contract is for way too long. There's no way that the people voting for him now would be saying the same thing six or seven years from now when we're stuck with an over the hill player making way too much money with four years still left on his deal.

Thornton is a much better option here. Even if we agree that Vinny is a little bit better, he's not worth that much more than Thornton is.

And I'm sorry but Thornton would improve our younger guys (esp Kostitysn) game tremendously. We've got wingers with good potential and I think a playmaker of his capability might actually be better for their development.

do you really think Thornton would stay in Montreal when he becomes a UFA in 2 years? And if Vinny starts playing like crap when he's 37 we can buy out his last few years so it's half the cap hit over twice the time left on the contract. But I doubt that happens.

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