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Coyotes Financial/Ownership Situation #3

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05-07-2009, 11:36 AM
  #76
roosterman
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
The BoG would be insane to vote for Balsillie. Salary cap, nationalism, revenue sharing, hockey in the desert, NHLPA, etc. aside, what it does is set a precedent for some ultra-rich shark accomplishing a hostile takeover of an NHL franchise with the BoG powerless to stop it. The Coyotes are only the ripest target in the bunch - if legal precedent is established, no franchise (at least American ones) is safe. My opinion, anyway.

Balsillie is effectively optioning control over the process that he isn't entitled to - at least that's how an NHL governor should look at it.
Ya agreed... it does set a precendance and if JB is successful I would not be surprised in the least if another potential owner who wnated to move a team attempt the sam thing with another franchise (NYI, Florida, etc.)

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05-07-2009, 11:39 AM
  #77
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Ok so I discussed the matter with my mom last night (who is a paralegal that has worked on numerous bankruptcy cases, including Chapter 11 filings) and here's the cliff notes of our conversation:

-The meeting today is not a hearing but a "creditor meeting" with the judge. Creditors show up in court and verify that they are creditors. The creditors can be found in the Chapter 11 petition filed by Moyes. A hearing won't be set for months.

-Moyes' lawyer (Scalerno I believe) is good, very good. My mom knows of him as the best bankruptcy lawyer in the state, if not the entire country. If he is taking on the case, then the NHL is in for a tough fight.

-The date set by JB and Moyes for a June 30, 2009, settlement date is laughable. This will play out for months and months. If they win, a team wouldn't be in place for a year, if not more. This is just the beginning. They still have to set a 341 hearing before even going to court. This may all end up in a civil court too, depending on how it plays out.

-The reason there are two case numbers and judges (as stated by a previous poster) is because Moyes filed Chapter 11 for two companies: Coyotes Hockey LLC and Coyotes Holdings LLC.

-She was not sure why he filed for Chapter 11 in the first place either. Filing Chapter 11 means that the manager of the asset(s) is going to continue operations, but if he sells the team (his only asset) then Chapter 11 does not make sense. It would have made more sense to file a Chapter 7, meaning that Moyes is liquidating assets (selling the team) and getting out of business. Very confusing.

-We are lucky that we got the two judges we did. One judge (can't remember the name off hand) is extremely tough to deal with.

-All bankruptcy cases are open to the public. However, the judge may, at his or her own discretion, close it off to only members of the parties involved.

That's about allI can remember at this point. If there are any questions, I can speak to her again and get back to you as soon as I can. At this point though, there are a lot of factors that need to play out. First and foremost, the June 30th date will simply not happen. When I told her the date of the filing and the date that Moyes wanted, she laughed out loud. So this play out way beyond summer.

I'm also questioning JB's motives for moving a team to SO. He has done this to 3 teams (Pitts, Nashville, and called Buffalo this year to ask if he could buy and then move the team) in the last 4 years. Why is he pulling the same stunt over and over again? It seems like a con. Why Hamilton exactly? It's located in the heart of where 3 other NHL clubs play (Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo). I'm really starting to question this guy's motives for moving a team and I think the NHL need to look at that too.
I'm thinking Moyes filed bankrupcy to void the lease agreement. Thus voiding the 750mil clause. Thus the JB offer. Thus contingent to move the team.

Overall, the bankrupcy filing is 'scumbaggish'.

Specially after finding out that there was indeed a legit buyer in Reinsdorf.

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05-07-2009, 11:42 AM
  #78
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Ya agreed... it does set a precendance and if JB is successful I would not be surprised in the least if another potential owner who wnated to move a team attempt the sam thing with another franchise (NYI, Florida, etc.)
Which would make the turning tides of the economy interesting. Imagine how fun it would be to see franchises moving every few years. It'll be a blast!

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05-07-2009, 11:51 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mon2mon2 View Post
I'm thinking Moyes filed bankrupcy to void the lease agreement. Thus voiding the 750mil clause. Thus the JB offer. Thus contingent to move the team.

Overall, the bankrupcy filing is 'scumbaggish'.

Specially after finding out that there was indeed a legit buyer in Reinsdorf.
Maybe, but he still should have filed a Chapter 7 since he's going to be liquidating his assets to JB. Chapter 11 states that he will continue to operate as a business, no matter if he has a lease agreement or not. It's all very confusing and there are going to lawsuits of the ying yang because of the filing. If he had just sold the team to Reinsdorf, none of this would have happened, and he would have still received money. The guy is an idiot on one hand and almost brilliant on another. Scalerno wouldn't have taken the case if he didn't think he could win, keep that in mind.

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05-07-2009, 11:59 AM
  #80
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But doesn't Moyes have to keep the team operating (chapter 11), got to pay scouts, draft day , Theoretical RFA & UFA signings July 1st, if he shuts down shop and sells off the assets how will the team operate during the summer? would the team forgo the draft?

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05-07-2009, 12:00 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
But doesn't Moyes have to keep the team operating (chapter 11), got to pay scouts, draft day , Theoretical RFA & UFA signings July 1st, if he shuts down shop and sells off the assets how will the team operate during the summer? would the team forgo the draft?
JB has already agreed to pay the operating costs of the team during bankruptcy ($17 million I believe) as part of the deal. It's called a specific name that I can't remember right now, but the team will still be operational with that money.

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05-07-2009, 12:01 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by pck21 View Post
I'm really starting to question this guy's motives for moving a team and I think the NHL need to look at that too.
Seems simple to me.

* He wants to own an NHL team.

* He's Canadian.

* He knows that he'll get the greatest popular support and best immediate revenue prospects from Southern Ontario.

* He knows full well that the NHL isn't considering expansion right now and he's not patient enough to wait.

* He is intent on eroding Gary Bettman's control over the league.

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05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
  #83
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Coyotes Purchase Contract is located

in links on this website.....you can download and review

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/561686

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Stronso View Post
in links on this website.....you can download and review

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/561686

There are 2 problems with the article...

1.) It is written by someone from the "Hamilton Spectator." Not a credible source in my opinion.

2.) They have a set date of June 29th, 2009, that they want the "process to be finished." It won't be finished because of the length of time it's going to take in bankruptcy court. So what happens after the June 29th deadline? They never explore that avenue.

Thanks for posting but I would like to see a more credible source come up with this information. No offense to the "Hamilton Spectator" but they have a bias outlook on the situation and therefore I am going their credibility into question. Sorry.

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
Seems simple to me.

* He wants to own an NHL team.

* He's Canadian.

* He knows that he'll get the greatest popular support and best immediate revenue prospects from Southern Ontario.

* He knows full well that the NHL isn't considering expansion right now and he's not patient enough to wait.

* He is intent on eroding Gary Bettman's control over the league.

All good motives to me. Especially the last one.

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:25 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
Seems simple to me.

* He wants to own an NHL team.

* He's Canadian.

* He knows that he'll get the greatest popular support and best immediate revenue prospects from Southern Ontario.

* He knows full well that the NHL isn't considering expansion right now and he's not patient enough to wait.

* He is intent on eroding Gary Bettman's control over the league.
The thing that gets me, too, is that the guy has zero desire to put a winning product out, just a product into a saturated market that preys upon the blindly patriotic to get some more dollar bills in his pocket.

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05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
Seems simple to me.

* He wants to own an NHL team.

* He's Canadian.

* He knows that he'll get the greatest popular support and best immediate revenue prospects from Southern Ontario.

* He knows full well that the NHL isn't considering expansion right now and he's not patient enough to wait.

* He is intent on eroding Gary Bettman's control over the league.
I understand that, but that doesn't seem to be his true motive. He just wants a team in Hamilton because he's such a big hockey fan? BS. I don't buy that for a second. He's the CEO of a multibillion dollar corporation and believes that he'll make a ton of money in sports franchise ownership? The WSJ just put out an article stating that owning a sports franchise does not usually equal a successful business investment. Being a businessman, why would this guy want to put a team only in SO. It can't be to make money because he already has enough money. Again, something doesn't seem right here. He's played the same con 3 times and has been shut down every time, but he still continues to pursue franchise ownership. I'm asking, why? It makes no sense to me. He has to have an ulterior motive for all of this. If I were the people of Hamilton, I would be highly skeptical of this character.

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05-07-2009, 12:31 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pck21 View Post
There are 2 problems with the article...

1.) It is written by someone from the "Hamilton Spectator." Not a credible source in my opinion.

2.) They have a set date of June 29th, 2009, that they want the "process to be finished." It won't be finished because of the length of time it's going to take in bankruptcy court. So what happens after the June 29th deadline? They never explore that avenue.

Thanks for posting but I would like to see a more credible source come up with this information. No offense to the "Hamilton Spectator" but they have a bias outlook on the situation and therefore I am going their credibility into question. Sorry.

I didnt post the link for any other reason than giving the place where the purchase contract can be downloaded.


PS: JM's email address is in the document. if any one wants to drop him a line .........

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by pck21 View Post
If I were the people of Hamilton, I would be highly skeptical of this character.
They don't see it. All they see is Don Cherry and a canadian flag.

JB is a dirty *****. I'm all for creating another team - have them in Hamilton or anywhere in Canada, I don't care, just as long as he is not the owner.

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05-07-2009, 12:37 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
Would other "non traditional Cities vote no?" FLA, TB, CAR, ATL etc
I say they'd vote yes because that means one more team in the league making money as opposed to not, which means they'd receive more revenue sharing money since they're at the bottom end of the league on revenue.

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05-07-2009, 12:40 PM
  #91
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They don't see it. All they see is Don Cherry and a canadian flag.

JB is a dirty *****. I'm all for creating another team - have them in Hamilton or anywhere in Canada, I don't care, just as long as he is not the owner.
Exactly! That's the problem with this whole thing.

Look no offense to our team, but we're not good. We just aren't. Moving us to the Canadian air in Hamilton won't make us any better. So in essence, JB wants to place a bad team in Canada because...? And that's where I get stuck. He wanted to the Pens there, who were bad at the time, and the Preds there, who are also bad at the time, and now us? Why is only targeting bad teams to move to Hamilton? The people of Hamilton don't want to see bad hockey. Why would they when they have the choice of seeing great teams like Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo? Does this make any sense at all to anyone? Please tell me that someone is at least seeing what I'm seeing. If the Hamilton team is bad (and with our team and coach, it's a given) why would the people of Hamilton pay money to see them when they can pay to see better teams? Just because they are there? That makes no logical sense in the least.

I would LOVE for Canada to have another team, I'm all for it. Just not MY team or any other NHL franchise.

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05-07-2009, 12:40 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BrokeBearMountain View Post
The thing that gets me, too, is that the guy has zero desire to put a winning product out, just a product into a saturated market that preys upon the blindly patriotic to get some more dollar bills in his pocket.
Yes, he should be more like the great owners in the league like the late Bill Wirtz or Phil Anschutz that care less about hockey and only own a team so their arena has a tenant.

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05-07-2009, 12:43 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Stronso View Post
I didnt post the link for any other reason than giving the place where the purchase contract can be downloaded.


PS: JM's email address is in the document. if any one wants to drop him a line .........
Oh I know and that's why I said thank you for posting.

I might just e-mail that guy and ask what is sources were for the article. I see a ton of holes in it and I just want to know.

Again, thanks for posting the document(s) OP!

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05-07-2009, 12:44 PM
  #94
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The thing that gets me, too, is that the guy has zero desire to put a winning product out, just a product into a saturated market that preys upon the blindly patriotic to get some more dollar bills in his pocket.
and you know this how? I recon he is interested in winning and besides, winning goes hand in hand with your other point about putting more dollars in his pocket. Since when is it a bad thing to want to make money? Isn't that the entire basis for Capitalism and the underpinning to the good ole U S of A?

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05-07-2009, 12:45 PM
  #95
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I say they'd vote yes because that means one more team in the league making money as opposed to not, which means they'd receive more revenue sharing money since they're at the bottom end of the league on revenue.
But then doesn't that lead to resentment of any bottom team every year? I refuse to believe that the owners would be so vindictive against one another.

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05-07-2009, 12:48 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by BrokeBearMountain View Post
The thing that gets me, too, is that the guy has zero desire to put a winning product out, just a product into a saturated market that preys upon the blindly patriotic to get some more dollar bills in his pocket.
So in essence, he's trying to create what the Coyotes were for Bettman? A cash grab in a market that is untapped (fans wanting their own team)?


I think Bettman is just irked that someone else is playing his game.


*edit to clarify*

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05-07-2009, 12:49 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by enviro61 View Post
and you know this how? I recon he is interested in winning and besides, winning goes hand in hand with your other point about putting more dollars in his pocket. Since when is it a bad thing to want to make money? Isn't that the entire basis for Capitalism and the underpinning to the good ole U S of A?
Yes, but to make a profit, you need to have a successful product. The Coyotes are not a proven asset that generates money, which is why we are in this mess. So I'll ask again: Why does JB want to buy a product that has proven to lose money? He's never been a sports franchise owner and doesn't understand how the game works. He's a fan who has a ton of money and a burr in his butt to own a team. That's a horrible excuse to own a franchise. That would be like if one of the posters on here suddenly came into bunch of money and then wanted to buy the team because "they could." That's a recipe for disaster.

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:51 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by rj View Post
I say they'd vote yes because that means one more team in the league making money as opposed to not, which means they'd receive more revenue sharing money since they're at the bottom end of the league on revenue.
BUT...these teams know they would receive more if they wait for a pay day from expansion fees.

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05-07-2009, 12:52 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by aparch View Post
So in essence, he's trying to create what the Coyotes were for Bettman? A cash grab in a market that is untapped (fans wanting their own team)?


I think Bettman is just irked that someone else is playing his game.


*edit to clarify*
Not necessarily. Bettman wanted to the expand the league through a different channel in a different market. For a business to grow, you have to expand. JB doesn't care about the NHL or growing the league. He just wants a team in SO for some unknown reason. I don't buy the fact that he wants to make more money. He has enough in a successful business already.

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Old
05-07-2009, 12:56 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by pck21 View Post
Ok so I discussed the matter with my mom last night (who is a paralegal that has worked on numerous bankruptcy cases, including Chapter 11 filings) and here's the cliff notes of our conversation:

-The meeting today is not a hearing but a "creditor meeting" with the judge. Creditors show up in court and verify that they are creditors. The creditors can be found in the Chapter 11 petition filed by Moyes. A hearing won't be set for months.

[snip]

-The reason there are two case numbers and judges (as stated by a previous poster) is because Moyes filed Chapter 11 for two companies: Coyotes Hockey LLC and Coyotes Holdings LLC.

[snip]

-We are lucky that we got the two judges we did. One judge (can't remember the name off hand) is extremely tough to deal with.
A few points:

1) The online docket today indicates that much more than a creditor's meeting is set for today. The docket shows that the court will take up numerous motions, including the motion to sell the team pursuant to the existing purchase agreement, subject to an auction in which higher bids will be solicited. (Certainly these motions can get put off, but according to the docket, it's all on there for this afternoon.)

2) There actually apparently were multiple petitions, not just the two that were identified in this thread yesterday. It appears the team was owned by multiple LLCs, the first of which to file was named "Dewey Ranch Hockey, LLC." This first filed case was assigned to Judge Baum, not to either of the two judges identified yesterday (Case or Haines). Baum accordingly will handle the hearings today.


http://www.azb.uscourts.gov/wCal.aspx

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