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Leafs Trying to Trade Up for Tavares

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:25 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You haven't put much thought into this. Every team has the assets needed to move up, assuming that future draft picks are on the table.
I've put a hell of a lot more thought into it than some Leafs' fans by the looks of it. Why would a team like New York or Tampa Bay want future picks if they can get their hands on a franchise player? Aren't they already rebuilding?

What Toronto has if far, far from enough to get a guy like Tavares. But hey, dreaming is free after all.

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05-09-2009, 11:33 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
What Toronto has if far, far from enough to get a guy like Tavares. But hey, dreaming is free after all.
Just like Lecavalier to Montreal

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05-09-2009, 11:35 AM
  #78
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I don't think the Leafs will be able to move from 7th to 1st or 2nd in one trade, but I don't see why they couldn't make a few trades to move up the draft. Burke worked some magic in the '99 draft to secure the Sedins and if he really wants Tavares and is willing to overpay, he could possibly get him, assuming one of the top 2 teams is willing to trade down.

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05-09-2009, 11:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Seems like only in Toronto do they think that those are enough assets. Again, quantity does NOT equal quality.
Ok whatever makes you sleep better at night ......

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05-09-2009, 11:55 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I've put a hell of a lot more thought into it than some Leafs' fans by the looks of it. Why would a team like New York or Tampa Bay want future picks if they can get their hands on a franchise player? Aren't they already rebuilding?

What Toronto has if far, far from enough to get a guy like Tavares. But hey, dreaming is free after all.
Asterix I agree.

Because Kaberle doesn't fit into Toronto's longterm plans,some leaf fans seem to think they can make him a key part of an offer to TB.Despite the fact that TB's gm has said he doesn't want any 30 yr old defensemen for the 2nd overall.Whether leaf fans and Burke like it or not,19 yr old Schenn makes a lot more sense both longterm and shortterm for TB.Price too high for the leafs?Well, they don't have to pay it.Keep Schenn+the 7th overall and TB keeps the 2nd overall.


The rebuilding Isles are even less likely to trade with the Leafs.Isles sales office has seen a big boost in calls about tixs since winning the draft lottery.The team's at a stage they think is critical for Wang's big land deal,with Wang asking for fans/voters to come to public meetings.Isles have already started milking fan interest with their draft contest.I think the isles could move down to #2,but I really doubt they go further down then that.

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05-09-2009, 12:03 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
I don't think the Leafs will be able to move from 7th to 1st or 2nd in one trade, but I don't see why they couldn't make a few trades to move up the draft. Burke worked some magic in the '99 draft to secure the Sedins and if he really wants Tavares and is willing to overpay, he could possibly get him, assuming one of the top 2 teams is willing to trade down.
How many times since the '99 draft, do you think Burke has had talks with other gms at a draft,trying unsuccessfully to move up or make trades?

This idea that 'hey Burke did it at the '99 draft, so he'll do it again' is a reach.I expect that Burke won't be able to move into the top 3,despite trying to.Then after the draft,he'll tell the Toronto press how unreasonable the other gms were.

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05-09-2009, 12:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
How many times since the '99 draft, do you think Burke has had talks with other gms at a draft,trying unsuccessfully to move up or make trades?

This idea that 'hey Burke did it at the '99 draft, so he'll do it again' is a reach.I expect that Burke won't be able to move into the top 3,despite trying to.Then after the draft,he'll tell the Toronto press how unreasonable the other gms were.

I don't see it as all that unlikely that Burke moves up to 5 or 6. I don't think there is any chance that the top 4 picks get moved, but I could easliy see LA or PHX moving down (Phx more than LA). That would, of course, depend on either team wanting the player they see at 7th enough to take a package similar to what Toronto gave last year.

I think the odds are pretty heavy that Toronto stays where they are - but a slight move is probably not out of the question (IMO).

I also continue to believe that Toronto is a good candidate to move to a later slot in the draft, because Burke needs to refill the cupboard and there will be some studs available in the 10 - 15 range.

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05-09-2009, 12:19 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
I don't think the Leafs will be able to move from 7th to 1st or 2nd in one trade, but I don't see why they couldn't make a few trades to move up the draft. Burke worked some magic in the '99 draft to secure the Sedins and if he really wants Tavares and is willing to overpay, he could possibly get him, assuming one of the top 2 teams is willing to trade down.
Your avatar always throws me off.

Yeah I HOPE Burkie pulls some magic and stocks up our system. There was some rumour of us ending with 2nd and 3rd with a bunch of intricate trades and it kind of made sense but was hardddd to pull off.

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05-09-2009, 12:23 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
How many times since the '99 draft, do you think Burke has had talks with other gms at a draft,trying unsuccessfully to move up or make trades?
How many top 10 draft picks has his team had since that draft? One, when the Ducks selected Bobby Ryan 2nd overall. He has tried a couple of times to move into the top 10, I remember hearing how he tried to move up to get Rick Nash in the '02 draft, but it's harder to move up when you're 1st pick is 49th overall compared to 7th.

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This idea that 'hey Burke did it at the '99 draft, so he'll do it again' is a reach.
That's not my thinking. My thinking is that Burke made the effort before to piece together smaller deals to move up to get the Sedins and it wouldn't surprise me if he attempted similar moves again here. Nowhere did I say it was a forgone conclusion.

I don't necessarily expect Burke to land Taveres as I expect the asking price will be too rich for his blood. But that said, if he really wants Tavares I think he has the assets to land him which was my original point.

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I expect that Burke won't be able to move into the top 3,despite trying to.Then after the draft,he'll tell the Toronto press how unreasonable the other gms were.
That's entirely possible.

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05-09-2009, 12:27 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
How many times since the '99 draft, do you think Burke has had talks with other gms at a draft,trying unsuccessfully to move up or make trades?

This idea that 'hey Burke did it at the '99 draft, so he'll do it again' is a reach.I expect that Burke won't be able to move into the top 3,despite trying to.Then after the draft,he'll tell the Toronto press how unreasonable the other gms were.
How many times since the '99 draft has Burke had a top 10 pick? Generally his teams are in the playoffs.

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05-09-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Seems like only in Toronto do they think that those are enough assets. Again, quantity does NOT equal quality.
Are you actually suggesting that a top seven pick in a deep draft, a 19 year old shutdown defenseman in the mold of a Robyn Regehr type (who will be on Team Canada for the upcoming Olympics), a top-pairing puck moving defenseman good for 55+ points per season on a very reasonable salary and another potential top ten draft pick in next year’s draft does not constitute quality?

Seriously?

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05-09-2009, 12:48 PM
  #87
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Are you actually suggesting that a top seven pick in a deep draft, a 19 year old shutdown defenseman in the mold of a Robyn Regehr type (who will be on Team Canada for the upcoming Olympics), a top-pairing puck moving defenseman good for 55+ points per season on a very reasonable salary and another potential top ten draft pick in next year’s draft does not constitute quality?

Seriously?
Everybody agrees that Schenn and the 7th would be very attractive to many teams. The point is that Burke is not going to want to part with Schenn - and who can blame him?

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05-09-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Everybody agrees that Schenn and the 7th would be very attractive to many teams. The point is that Burke is not going to want to part with Schenn - and who can blame him?
I agree with what you're saying. I know that the only way Tavares is coming to Toronto is if Schenn is part of the package. I was merely trying to point out in my previous post that it is asinine to suggest that Toronto does not possess the assets required to land the #1 overall pick. Obviously the pieces are there to make the trade happen, but that all depends on how much Burke is willing to part with.

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05-09-2009, 12:57 PM
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I agree with what you're saying. I know that the only way Tavares is coming to Toronto is if Schenn is part of the package. I was merely trying to point out in my previous post that it is asinine to suggest that Toronto does not possess the assets required to land the #1 overall pick. Obviously the pieces are there to make the trade happen, but that all depends on how much Burke is willing to part with.

First of all, I'm not sure that the "pieces are there." If you are sitting with a shot at a Hedman/Tavares you don't move those guys for "quantity for quality" deals. Schenn and your 7th is not getting you the 1st overall and I'm not sure that throwing in a bunch of mid-round picks, lessor young players (Tlusty etc) et al. is going to do anything. Bottom line is that the Leafs have no shot at that pick, regardless of what they put on the table.

Second, I think the idea here is that the Leafs don't have the TRADEABLE assets. Yeah, we could put together a deal that MIGHT get it done if we gut Toronto's depth and prospect pool but that isn't a realistic scenario. The idea that the Leafs don't have what it takes rests on the assumption that Burke is acting with some degree of realism.

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05-09-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
Are you actually suggesting that a top seven pick in a deep draft, a 19 year old shutdown defenseman in the mold of a Robyn Regehr type (who will be on Team Canada for the upcoming Olympics), a top-pairing puck moving defenseman good for 55+ points per season on a very reasonable salary and another potential top ten draft pick in next year’s draft does not constitute quality?

Seriously?
Yes, I'm saying that quantity does NOT equal quality. The team getting the best player in the deal is the team winning the trade and Tavares is a potential franchise player. Can't say the same about any of the other parts you're trying to throw at New York. That's what I'm saying. I'm not downplaying the value of Toronto's assets, I'm saying that they're not good enough to justify a franchise player. Why Leafs' fans get up and arm about it is hard to understand unless they highly overrate their players, which could very well be the case.

In other words, ask yourself if you would trade that package for Crosby or Ovechkin? You want Tavares because he broke Gretzky's records, because he has the potential to be in the same category. Toronto doesn't have the assets to pull that deal, period.

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05-09-2009, 01:17 PM
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How many top 10 draft picks has his team had since that draft? One, when the Ducks selected Bobby Ryan 2nd overall. He has tried a couple of times to move into the top 10, I remember hearing how he tried to move up to get Rick Nash in the '02 draft, but it's harder to move up when you're 1st pick is 49th overall compared to 7th.
The point isn't whether he's in the top 10 and trying to move up.At whatever spot he's been at and tried to move up from in the past,I have to think he's been more unsuccessful at moving up,then he's been successful.Been told no thanks by other gms more times at the draft,then told ok you've got a deal.

This idea that hey Burke wants to move up ,so watch him do it is a head scratcher.He using the old Jedi mind trick?


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I don't necessarily expect Burke to land Taveres as I expect the asking price will be too rich for his blood. But that said, if he really wants Tavares I think he has the assets to land him which was my original point.
Only if the nyi pass over Tavares and TB isn't opposed to trading down.
Cause unless Burke's been elected to Town of Hempstead city board,I don't think the leafs have anything to get the isles to trade down to 7th.

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05-09-2009, 01:56 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
The point isn't whether he's in the top 10 and trying to move up.At whatever spot he's been at and tried to move up from in the past,I have to think he's been more unsuccessful at moving up,then he's been successful.Been told no thanks by other gms more times at the draft,then told ok you've got a deal.
The same can be said for virtually every other GM. Teams target certain players they want to draft and if there is a chance for them to move up to ensure they draft said player and it makes sense to them to give up said assets to do so, they'll do it. Burke has done it before in the past in a very big way in the '99 draft. All I'm saying is that if Burke is that serious about landing Taveres and is willing to move prime assets(7th overall, Schenn and Kaberle), he could do it again. Nowhere am I saying it's a sure thing and in fact I stated that he likely won't because of the likely cost.

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This idea that hey Burke wants to move up ,so watch him do it is a head scratcher.He using the old Jedi mind trick?
Don't see where you're pulling this from at all. Must be other poster's because never once have I said or implied that Burke can "snap his fingers" and land Tavares. I have said that if he's creative enough and willing to deal his prized assets he could make a serious push to land a top two pick. Citing the '99 draft and the moves he made show that he has been creative in the past when targetting assets he wishes to have.

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Only if the nyi pass over Tavares and TB isn't opposed to trading down.
This is the key. If the Isles are dead set on picking Tavares, then yes, they don't have a shot. But they're are rumours that the Isles could covet Hedman and if that's the case, I can see them trading down to 2nd in order to pick up an extra asset or so and still get the guy they want.

It certainly won't be easy for Burke to maneuver into a top 2 pick, but as I've said before, it's not impossible as many have suggested.

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Cause unless Burke's been elected to Town of Hempstead city board,I don't think the leafs have anything to get the isles to trade down to 7th.
I've said as much. I'm not talking about a straight across trade from 7th to 1st/2nd. If you could read you would've saw that in the first post of mine you responded to.

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05-09-2009, 02:26 PM
  #93
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The same can be said for virtually every other GM. Teams target certain players they want to draft and if there is a chance for them to move up to ensure they draft said player and it makes sense to them to give up said assets to do so, they'll do it. Burke has done it before in the past in a very big way in the '99 draft. All I'm saying is that if Burke is that serious about landing Taveres and is willing to move prime assets(7th overall, Schenn and Kaberle), he could do it again. Nowhere am I saying it's a sure thing and in fact I stated that he likely won't because of the likely cost.
And I'm saying that because of off ice issues(tix sales,Lighthouse deal),I don't think the nyi would consider Schenn+7th overall enough.It should be clear by now that the Leafs and Isles do not view Schenn's upside in the same light.One team looks and sees Foote II,the other team looks and sees Neids II.


Also because Streit fills kaberle's role as pp quarterback,the rebuilding isles would not be keen to land 31 yr old Kaberle as a key piece for the 1st overall.


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Don't see where you're pulling this from at all. Must be other poster's because never once have I said or implied that Burke can "snap his fingers" and land Tavares. I have said that if he's creative enough and willing to deal his prized assets he could make a serious push to land a top two pick. Citing the '99 draft and the moves he made show that he has been creative in the past when targetting assets he wishes to have.

I apologize for lumping you in with these fantasy homers on message boards and in the press.The ones who seem to think Burke's announcement about trying to land Tavares, means something to the front offices in TB and LI.


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This is the key. If the Isles are dead set on picking Tavares, then yes, they don't have a shot. But they're are rumours that the Isles could covet Hedman and if that's the case, I can see them trading down to 2nd in order to pick up an extra asset or so and still get the guy they want.
Other then the Toronto media,there has not been one source saying the Isles want Hedman.

The only credible reports are the ones from nhl.com and newsday,saying the isles are thrilled with the response from would be tix buyers since winning the lottery.

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It certainly won't be easy for Burke to maneuver into a top 2 pick, but as I've said before, it's not impossible as many have suggested
.

We'll see.If he gets TB's pick,Leaf fans better prepare to give up Schenn+7th overall.Fans expecting to get the 2nd cheaply are kidding themselves.

and Wang's not letting the isles take the huge pr hit of trading away Tavares/Hedman, when his Lighthouse deal could hang on public support in an election yr.Isles are already trying to build off the 1st overall pick,gathering fan/voter contact info in their draft contest.

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05-09-2009, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
And I'm saying that because of off ice issues(tix sales,Lighthouse deal),I don't think the nyi would consider Schenn+7th overall enough.It should be clear by now that the Leafs and Isles do not view Schenn's upside in the same light.One team looks and sees Foote II,the other team looks and sees Neids II.
I don't see why you keep bringing up Schenn + 7th for Tavares with me? I never stated that was a likely deal, in fact I stated the opposite. The only way I see Burke landing the 1st overall, or Tavares for that matter is if he can get the 2nd from the Lightning and the Isles wish to select Hedman.

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Also because Streit fills kaberle's role as pp quarterback,the rebuilding isles would not be keen to land 31 yr old Kaberle as a key piece for the 1st overall.
Again, completely missed the point. I'm sure a team such as Phoenix, LA or maybe Atlanta would have some interest in Kaberle, allowing the Leafs to move up into a better position to strike for the 2nd overall pick.

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Other then the Toronto media,there has not been one source saying the Isles want Hedman.

The only credible reports are the ones from nhl.com and newsday,saying the isles are thrilled with the response from would be tix buyers since winning the lottery.
I haven't been following too closely so my bad if that is the case. Really only Garth Snow and his staff know who they value higher so we'll have to wait and see. I have said that if the Isles are deadset on taking Tavares then the Leafs have no chance.

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We'll see.If he gets TB's pick,Leaf fans better prepare to give up Schenn+7th overall.Fans expecting to get the 2nd cheaply are kidding themselves.
Again, I've never said otherwise. Unless of course Burke can swing some more minor deals to move up from pick to pick.

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and Wang's not letting the isles take the huge pr hit of trading away Tavares/Hedman, when his Lighthouse deal could hang on public support in an election yr.Isles are already trying to build off the 1st overall pick,gathering fan/voter contact info in their draft contest.
I don't expect the Isles to move Tavares/Hedman, I fully expect them to select one of the two. I've never said otherwise.

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05-09-2009, 02:41 PM
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Don't wanna give -- then you're not gonna get.

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05-09-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
And I'm saying that because of off ice issues(tix sales,Lighthouse deal),I don't think the nyi would consider Schenn+7th overall enough.It should be clear by now that the Leafs and Isles do not view Schenn's upside in the same light.One team looks and sees Foote II,the other team looks and sees Neids II.
If Schenn is Foote II, I can only hope that Burke doesn't consider trading him. What I'm wondering is why you act like a Foote type defenceman is a bad thing. If that's who he is, there's no way I'd deal him with other valuable assets (Kaberle, 7th overall) for Tavares. Others might feel differently, but thats my perspective.

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I apologize for lumping you in with these fantasy homers on message boards and in the press.The ones who seem to think Burke's announcement about trying to land Tavares, means something to the front offices in TB and LI.
Honestly, I've been saying this for a while, but as far as I can tell, these people don't exist. You keep referring to these "fantasy homers" - who are they? I don't think anybody would suggest that the NYI care what Burke says. You, on the other hand, obviously do.

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05-09-2009, 02:52 PM
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I don't see why you keep bringing up Schenn + 7th for Tavares with me? I never stated that was a likely deal, in fact I stated the opposite. The only way I see Burke landing the 1st overall, or Tavares for that matter is if he can get the 2nd from the Lightning and the Isles wish to select Hedman.

I bought up Schenn+ 7th overall because TB's gm speculated about trading the 2nd overall.Lawton said the deal would have to make sense both longterm and short term,that he didn't want a 30 yr old defensemen.Leaf fans continue to offer up 31/32 yr old Kaberle,despite Lawton's comments.If Burke called TB about their #1 pick,I think it's a safe guess to say TB would demand 19 yr old Schenn,not 31/32 yr old Kaberle.
Isles are rebuilding with kids,so they would also demand Schenn instead of kaberle.


And Schenn alone isn't close to landing 1st or 2nd overall.Scouts seems to think this is a 2 man,maybe a 3 man draft before the talent level drops off,which is why I think the other team would ask for Schenn+the leafs 1st as the key pieces if they were looking to deal a top 2 pick.


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Again, completely missed the point. I'm sure a team such as Phoenix, LA or maybe Atlanta would have some interest in Kaberle, allowing the Leafs to move up into a better position to strike for the 2nd overall pick.
Phoenix's owner declared backruptcy,the team's being supported financially by the league.Until their new ownership is decided and makes his views known about payroll,I doubt they look to add a $4m defenseman.

Atlanta's owners are in a ownership fight.It'd be interesting to read if they are looking to add salary.I know I read a Kovalchuk comment saying he wants them to spend on free agents.

LA's ??I don't know if they would be in the kaberle mix or not.

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05-09-2009, 03:08 PM
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If Schenn is Foote II, I can only hope that Burke doesn't consider trading him. What I'm wondering is why you act like a Foote type defenceman is a bad thing. If that's who he is, there's no way I'd deal him with other valuable assets (Kaberle, 7th overall) for Tavares. Others might feel differently, but thats my perspective.

I am pointing out what I think is the Isle opinion of Schenn.Just days before the 2008 draft,there was a small online blurb from one of the papers,saying the isles would not use such a high pick on a stay at home defensemen.

Then after the draft we read that Snow had tried trading up to get one of the offensive d-men,but been unable to.


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I've been saying this for a while, but as far as I can tell, these people don't exist. You keep referring to these "fantasy homers" - who are they? I don't think anybody would suggest that the NYI care what Burke says. You, on the other hand, obviously do.
Are you trying to tell me that Toronto media members like LeBraun,Cox,Dreger,Simmons haven't commented in the last 7-10 days about Burke still wanting Tavares,still trying to trade up?A recent Burke interview was posted on one of the more popular nyi fan message boards.The reaction is more scornful then worried.

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05-09-2009, 03:17 PM
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Are you trying to tell me that Toronto media members like LeBraun,Cox,Dreger,Simmons haven't commented in the last 7-10 days about Burke still wanting Tavares,still trying to trade up?
Not a word that I've seen. The only reason they would is if they could mock him for saying he wanted Tavares but the media is afraid of Burke, and he did something big at the draft before.

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05-09-2009, 04:16 PM
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Not a word that I've seen. The only reason they would is if they could mock him for saying he wanted Tavares but the media is afraid of Burke, and he did something big at the draft before.
As I posted.I read a Burke comment saying basically that other teams may have lost faith in Tavares because of his postseason,Burke hoped they had.The article's on the web.I just don't care enough to search for it.

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