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Balsillie/Phoenix part II

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05-07-2009, 09:09 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Now you want owners with a true passion and dedication? Maybe you need to look over the list of NHL owners and tell me which ones meet your criteria? I assure you, the list is short, and perhaps even shorter is the list of guys who are willing to back that "passion" with $300 million in losses.
The hilarious thing is that I think Balsillie, if given the chance, would probably be such an owner.

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05-07-2009, 09:12 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Naych_PHX View Post
Interesting read.
Very. Bryden is making my point much more eloquently (and in far fewer words) than me. Who is next?

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05-07-2009, 09:16 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
The hilarious thing is that I think Balsillie, if given the chance, would probably be such an owner.
I don't disagree. I would love to live in a city where he owned a team, as long as I knew someone with deeper pockets couldn't come along at will and plant the stakes of a competing team.

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05-07-2009, 09:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
My point is these threads ooze passion from hockey fans all over the world, who love this game and will go to great lengths to defend this game that they love. Moyes exhibits none of that. Doesn't even take responsibility for getting into it in the first place. He's putting himself and his interests above all those who love this game.

If he and Balsillie are successful, be prepared for the NHL to be relegated to minor sports status. Without territory protection there is no safe market. The one true "international" pro sports league will become a regional shell of itself, with owners ripping teams from cities on a whim that a few more bucks can be made in another city. Are you prepared for that? I'm not. If we lose the Coyotes, so be it. But if it goes down as Balsillie is hoping it does, the NHL is doomed.
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
The hilarious thing is that I think Balsillie, if given the chance, would probably be such an owner.
I agree with Brodie, but it's tough to say that to fans who potentially could lose their team.

I understand that Moyes wasn't a hockey to begin with, but you have to give him some credit for trying to make a go of it. I personally think sinking $300 million into this venture is a heck of a go.

On the issue that territorial rights, even if not enforceable by law, should be respected, well there is something to be said in this instance. I don't know Balsillie's reasons for doing it this way, but he may feel he has something to settle with the commissioner. The history is a long one, with plenty of name calling through the media.

How realistic is it to expect this become the norm in sports? I tend to think not all that realistic. You have to have really, really deep pockets AND the willingness to battle.

 
Old
05-07-2009, 09:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
My point is these threads ooze passion from hockey fans all over the world, who love this game and will go to great lengths to defend this game that they love. Moyes exhibits none of that. Doesn't even take responsibility for getting into it in the first place. He's putting himself and his interests above all those who love this game.

If he and Balsillie are successful, be prepared for the NHL to be relegated to minor sports status. Without territory protection there is no safe market. The one true "international" pro sports league will become a regional shell of itself, with owners ripping teams from cities on a whim that a few more bucks can be made in another city. Are you prepared for that? I'm not. If we lose the Coyotes, so be it. But if it goes down as Balsillie is hoping it does, the NHL is doomed.
A couple of points:

How many owners do you think are hockey fans? I'm willing to bet maybe half could care less about the sport.

The no territory infringement deal works fine for the NFL. They lose cities and replace them with expansion teams or more relocations. How many fans in Cleveland are still whining about losing their team? Baltimore? LA is going to have a team in a few years and it's probably coming from Jacksonville or San Diego. Guess what? If the Yotes move, how long do you think it will be until another struggling team goes to Phoenix due to the arena? It will be less than 10 years. If not that, then an expansion team. The NHL wanted to become a 32 team league on an NFL model and it will.

Relocation is not frowned upon in any other league. Did you see Bud Seling running around begging people to buy the Marlins when they were on the block a few years ago? He let them negotiate with Portland and San Antonio and in the end they came to a deal without him. The NBA let the equivalent of Jim Balsillie move a team with 40 years of history to Oklahoma City without so much as a whimper... and when the Memphis Grizzlies become the new Sonics in a few years nobody will whine. We can't forget Paul Tagliabue who turned the NFL into a sports machine while doing nothing to prevent a team from leaving the 4th largest city in the country. It's just the NHL who obsesses over keeping current markets in tact.

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05-07-2009, 09:23 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
My point is these threads ooze passion from hockey fans all over the world, who love this game and will go to great lengths to defend this game that they love. Moyes exhibits none of that. Doesn't even take responsibility for getting into it in the first place. He's putting himself and his interests above all those who love this game.

If he and Balsillie are successful, be prepared for the NHL to be relegated to minor sports status. Without territory protection there is no safe market. The one true "international" pro sports league will become a regional shell of itself, with owners ripping teams from cities on a whim that a few more bucks can be made in another city. Are you prepared for that? I'm not. If we lose the Coyotes, so be it. But if it goes down as Balsillie is hoping it does, the NHL is doomed.
LOL. The world is gunna end if the Coyotes move! Mod: deleted.

Balsillie has the support of most Canadians. In fact he is using this as a sort of public image battle with Bettman and the NHL. He is overpaying by about $50 million for a franchise just so he can move it to his home. He has become a very polarizing figure indeed, most posts in this threads have either been strongly in favour or strongly opposed to him.

The NHL is already a minor sport in the US and A. It will never be able to compete with the big 3 as a whole. May as well strengthen its solid markets (which obviously does NOT include Phoenix) and look to expand to Europe within the next decade.


Last edited by Fugu: 05-07-2009 at 09:24 PM. Reason: play nice
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05-07-2009, 09:27 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I agree with Brodie, but it's tough to say that to fans who potentially could lose their team.

I understand that Moyes wasn't a hockey to begin with, but you have to give him some credit for trying to make a go of it. I personally think sinking $300 million into this venture is a heck of a go.

On the issue that territorial rights, even if not enforceable by law, should be respected, well there is something to be said in this instance. I don't know Balsillie's reasons for doing it this way, but he may feel he has something to settle with the commissioner. The history is a long one, with plenty of name calling through the media.

How realistic is it to expect this become the norm in sports? I tend to think not all that realistic. You have to have really, really deep pockets AND the willingness to battle.
I'm not sure how realistic it is either, but do you want to run the risk of testing it out? I don't. But I do know that if you could simply move your team or sell to the highest bidder, the NHL would be in no position to try and help save Ottawa, Calgary, Vancouver or Edmonton the next time finances become an issue. Why would anyone listen to an impotent, powerless voice? It's just too risky. The NHL can't guarantee passionate, committed owners, but it sure can protect and grow the league against those interested only in the $$$$ who threaten to rip it apart.

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05-07-2009, 09:29 PM
  #83
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I think Balsillie's PR campaign is going to be the death of him, but the springboard to his goal. There can be absolutely no doubt that a second team in Southern Ontario is going to happen, not with the tickets sold and the 50,000+ names on the MakeItSeven website. There is so much interest that it's just become inevitable.

But there's a nice group building an arena in Vaughan who the NHL will gladly give that team to.

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05-07-2009, 09:30 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
He's lost $300 million. Dedication to the fan? Seriously? You think he should just keep putting $30 million into it indefinitely, you know, until he's completely broke?

The last time I checked, $300 million was a heck of a lot of money, but you want even more.
Yes, that is alot of money. But since he lost the money due to being a completely inept owner, not alot of people in Phoenix feel sorry for him. The team is in dire straits because of him, not in spite of him.

If I buy a chain of day care centers and hire Pee Wee Herman to run them, then I deserve to lose my money.

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05-07-2009, 09:47 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
A couple of points:

How many owners do you think are hockey fans? I'm willing to bet maybe half could care less about the sport.
I have no clue. But how many are committed to the franchise and the community? That's my larger point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
The no territory infringement deal works fine for the NFL. They lose cities and replace them with expansion teams or more relocations. How many fans in Cleveland are still whining about losing their team? Baltimore? LA is going to have a team in a few years and it's probably coming from Jacksonville or San Diego. Guess what? If the Yotes move, how long do you think it will be until another struggling team goes to Phoenix due to the arena? It will be less than 10 years. If not that, then an expansion team. The NHL wanted to become a 32 team league on an NFL model and it will.

Relocation is not frowned upon in any other league. Did you see Bud Seling running around begging people to buy the Marlins when they were on the block a few years ago? He let them negotiate with Portland and San Antonio and in the end they came to a deal without him. The NBA let the equivalent of Jim Balsillie move a team with 40 years of history to Oklahoma City without so much as a whimper... and when the Memphis Grizzlies become the new Sonics in a few years nobody will whine. We can't forget Paul Tagliabue who turned the NFL into a sports machine while doing nothing to prevent a team from leaving the 4th largest city in the country. It's just the NHL who obsesses over keeping current markets in tact.
The NHL is not the NFL, NBA, or MLB. The whole point of the NHL expansion was to broaden its reach within the US, driving revenues in untapped markets while protecting those franchises in established markets. The formula has meant more revenue flowing within the NHL than any time in its history. Is 24 US and 6 Canadian teams the right balance? Likely not. I have no doubt that Southern Ontario is a great location for a team and it will do well financially. I just believe that the #4 professional sports league in North America needs to run tighter than its larger counterparts.

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05-07-2009, 10:06 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
I have no clue. But how many are committed to the franchise and the community? That's my larger point.



The NHL is not the NFL, NBA, or MLB. The whole point of the NHL expansion was to broaden its reach within the US, driving revenues in untapped markets while protecting those franchises in established markets. The formula has meant more revenue flowing within the NHL than any time in its history. Is 24 US and 6 Canadian teams the right balance? Likely not. I have no doubt that Southern Ontario is a great location for a team and it will do well financially. I just believe that the #4 professional sports league in North America needs to run tighter than its larger counterparts.
Your take on the situation may explain why the NHL could run into anti-trust legal problems; the NFL, NBA or MLB have been very liberal with respect to relocation of franchises compared to the NHL which, at best, is operating like an "old boys" club and at the worst is operating as a monopoly.

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05-07-2009, 10:07 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
My point is these threads ooze passion from hockey fans all over the world, who love this game and will go to great lengths to defend this game that they love. Moyes exhibits none of that. Doesn't even take responsibility for getting into it in the first place. He's putting himself and his interests above all those who love this game.

If he and Balsillie are successful, be prepared for the NHL to be relegated to minor sports status. Without territory protection there is no safe market. The one true "international" pro sports league will become a regional shell of itself, with owners ripping teams from cities on a whim that a few more bucks can be made in another city. Are you prepared for that? I'm not. If we lose the Coyotes, so be it. But if it goes down as Balsillie is hoping it does, the NHL is doomed.
That's a little dramatic. I understand you're upset that Phoenix might be losing their team (which I doubt they will). But in no way will this set a precedent that endangers any other franchises.

The sad thing is, I think the team will remain in Phoenix. & will either lose about the same amount of money, or even more. How long does this have to go on, before Bettman finally says "ok, I was wrong?" Of course he would never say that. I have no doubt that there are real fans in Phoenix who love the sport. But there's just not enough.

Then again, i'd love to be proven wrong. I guess time will tell.

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Old
05-07-2009, 10:08 PM
  #88
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277920

CP afternoon article, titled: NHL'S DALY TO BALSILLIE: WE DON'T PICK FIGHTS BUT WE END THEM

That so much sounds like the credo of the toughguys of the NHL who somewhat have that philosophy about protecting their teammates and making sure things end in the team's favor.

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05-07-2009, 10:09 PM
  #89
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LOL. The world is gunna end if the Coyotes move! Mod: deleted.
Didn't say that. Said if Balsillie and Moyes succeed in setting precedent that any NHL team can be bought and moved without league approval, the NHL is doomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyScholar View Post
He is overpaying by about $50 million for a franchise just so he can move it to his home.
Actually he's overpaying by about $97.5M in an attempt to circumvent league rules, and avoid paying the NHL rights to the SO market valued at $400M to $500M.

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Originally Posted by HockeyScholar View Post
The NHL is already a minor sport in the US and A. It will never be able to compete with the big 3 as a whole. May as well strengthen its solid markets (which obviously does NOT include Phoenix) and look to expand to Europe within the next decade.
Wow, hadn't considered hockey would never reach the level of the NFL, NBA and MLB is the US

And you're European strategy is brilliant. Let's triple or quadruple travel expenses for every NHL team. That will grow the league and positively drive the bottom line.

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05-07-2009, 10:15 PM
  #90
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277915

Another CP article - NHL claims ownership and wants bankruptcy denied.

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05-07-2009, 10:15 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by avco View Post
Your take on the situation may explain why the NHL could run into anti-trust legal problems; the NFL, NBA or MLB have been very liberal with respect to relocation of franchises compared to the NHL which, at best, is operating like an "old boys" club and at the worst is operating as a monopoly.
Legitimate point. But if the NHL is going to grow and succeed with 30 or more teams likes those other leagues, my hat is off to the NHL doing everything it legally can to protect its franchisees and the territories they paid dearly for.

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05-07-2009, 10:46 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
Bill Daly is such a cheeseball.. "We dont pick fights, but we end them." Good lord.


If that was said by Balsillie, I can only imagine the thunderous applause and proclamations of "you go gettem, jimmy!!! That's a hockey guy for ya!!!"


Last edited by GSC2k2*: 05-07-2009 at 10:57 PM.
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05-07-2009, 10:52 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by avco View Post
Your take on the situation may explain why the NHL could run into anti-trust legal problems; the NFL, NBA or MLB have been very liberal with respect to relocation of franchises compared to the NHL which, at best, is operating like an "old boys" club and at the worst is operating as a monopoly.
Also not going to quote it but directed towards Brodies post:

The MLB is certainly not "liberal" with respect to relocation of franchises. If anything, they control it the strictest of any of the 4 "major" leagues.

I think ya'll need to look this stuff up!

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05-07-2009, 11:02 PM
  #94
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From the legal info thread:

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Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002 View Post
3. However, the NHL contends in its written objection that, when he received the financing (before the filing), Moyes signed proxies giving to the league the full authority to control the equity and operations of the league. Moyes then asked to be allowed to retain his titles for show so as to avoid embarrassment, and the NHL agreed under the express understanding that he would not do anything outside the normal course of business.
So the NHL allowed Moyes to remain owner on essentially a handshake agreement?

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05-07-2009, 11:10 PM
  #95
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From the legal info thread:



So the NHL allowed Moyes to remain owner on essentially a handshake agreement?
I cannot say whether the "express understanding" was oral or written.

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05-07-2009, 11:11 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by yotes2009 View Post
...with owners ripping teams from cities on a whim that a few more bucks can be made in another city. Are you prepared for that? I'm not.

The Phoenix Coyotes are not the Seattle Supersonics where the team is getting ripped away on a whim, nowhere close. The Coyotes as they stand currently are far more analogous to the Indianapolis Racers. The Racers no longer exist because they were a hockey team that did not make enough money to cover its costs, and it went away. If you think the Coyotes are a sustainable team, show me how your team can just break even eventually, let alone make a profit, without further welfare checks from the league.

As far as Moyes, from the looks of it the Coyotes would've died some years ago if he didn't keep subsidizing it, so I don't see why you're blaming him for realizing he's pouring money down an unending hole and just wanting to stop. If you have the money, he'd be more than willing to sell it to you and then you can lose money on it.


Last edited by rj: 05-07-2009 at 11:20 PM.
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05-07-2009, 11:17 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=277915

Another CP article - NHL claims ownership and wants bankruptcy denied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gscarpenter2002 View Post
I cannot say whether the "express understanding" was oral or written.
CP article (above) indicates written documents.

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05-07-2009, 11:18 PM
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If that was said by Balsillie, I can only imagine the thunderous applause and proclamations of "you go gettem, jimmy!!! That's a hockey guy for ya!!!"
More than likely, but it's not terribly smart for the league to be trash-talking in the midst of what's becoming a significant PR problem for them. I have to wonder what non-fan parties - say, the CBC, or the Prime Minister - who've made sympathetic noises towards Balsillie think about the NHL suggesting they're on the wrong side of a "fight" the league plans to "end."

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05-07-2009, 11:26 PM
  #99
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Why aren't you prepared for that? It was the only way your city got a team to start with.

And the Phoenix Coyotes are not the Seattle Supersonics where the team is getting ripped away on a whim, nowhere close. They are far more analogous to the Indianapolis Racers. The Racers no longer exist because the team did not make enough money to cover its costs.
I'm not saying anything remotely close to that. The issue is not the Coyotes and whether they're a viable team in a viable market. It's who is to decide the answer to that question in the best interest of the NHL and its 30 franchises. The NHL or individual owners? The league argues it is its decision; Moyes and Balsillie are arguing against that opinion.

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05-07-2009, 11:27 PM
  #100
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CP article (above) indicates written documents.
The proxy documents were written. I think the poster above is referring to the NHL's subsequent accommodation of allowing Moyes to retain his CEO title even though he had signed his control away. THAT one is the one that is currently uncertain. The article quoted only references the original written proxy.

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