that if you get rid of one person, Messier, then you can really get a look to the future. Ask any winger under the age of 25 on the Rangers who they'd like to have as their centerman...I'm sure the experience for a Garth Murray, or Balej, or who-have-you, of playing with Messier is priceless.
I'm shocked that this team was able to win a game with Messier in the lineup, given how great they looked after he left (he was gone when the Rangers lost, correct?). Sorry for the thick sarcasm.
Anyone remember the last time Messier played on a Renney-led team? Or should I say, anyone remember the last time Messier ran a team that Renney happened to coach? Didn't end well for Renney and I cannot imagine it being any better with Sather as GM....
There is no doubt in my mind that Messier played well this year. In fact, he was instrumental in the first goal of the Pitt game, assisting to Josh Green. The point is though, his presence on the bench = regular shifts and PP and PK time. I applauded him coming back to play on the 3rd line and love his veteran leadership.
I do not, however, love his selfish-seeming way of needing to take over the team. At the age of 43, he is playing a one-dimensional offensive game, albeit doing it well. His defensive-zone play is indefensible for much of the season and he has been getting away with countless hooks and holds that have covered up even more of his gaffes.
Edge: Lundmark doesn't need more minutes, he needs a chance to play without wondering whether he will be taken off the line after one period! Holik publicly comments on the subject and STILL Lundmark doesn't play w/Jagr. Renney in the pregame 2 games ago talks about the struggle between coaching to win and giving the young guys playing time (it was in an other thread...). THIS STRUGGLE SHOULDN'T BE A CONCERN!
Fletch: The experience is priceless, yes, when you are learning how to play the game. However, how is it priceless when you are being outworked in the defensive zone and getting little support in the offensive zone? Messier is floating most of the time, opportunistically taking some offensive plays. And as for you're sarcasm, the did take a 2-1 win in the 3rd pd without him and a 1-2 loss in the 1st with him.
at least better than many of the wingers he's had that haven't picked up their man. If Mess was so horrible in his zone, and goaltending was so bad, and the defense was so bad, I would find it hard that this guy could actually end up with a plus.
[QUOTE=vbox81]Anyone remember the last time Messier played on a Renney-led team? Or should I say, anyone remember the last time Messier ran a team that Renney happened to coach? Didn't end well for Renney and I cannot imagine it being any better with Sather as GM....
There is no doubt in my mind that Messier played well this year. In fact, he was instrumental in the first goal of the Pitt game, assisting to Josh Green. The point is though, his presence on the bench = regular shifts and PP and PK time. I applauded him coming back to play on the 3rd line and love his veteran leadership.
I do not, however, love his selfish-seeming way of needing to take over the team. At the age of 43, he is playing a one-dimensional offensive game, albeit doing it well. His defensive-zone play is indefensible for much of the season and he has been getting away with countless hooks and holds that have covered up even more of his gaffes.
Edge: Lundmark doesn't need more minutes, he needs a chance to play without wondering whether he will be taken off the line after one period! Holik publicly comments on the subject and STILL Lundmark doesn't play w/Jagr. Renney in the pregame 2 games ago talks about the struggle between coaching to win and giving the young guys playing time (it was in an other thread...). THIS STRUGGLE SHOULDN'T BE A CONCERN!
[QUOTE]
The problem is that Messier's benefits to the team weren't supposed to come on the ice. They were supposed to come off of it and the fact that he has played even as well as he has is a bonus. We're talking like he is the centerpiece of the team which he isn't. He did better than expected and better than a lot of younger, "better" players did both on his own and other teams.
Lundmark is getting every chance in the world to show he belongs. If anything we've gone the opposite way. I used to say "no team gives their youngsters treatment like this" in a negative light, but how many players in Lundmark's shoes get a chance to play with Jagr?
The opportunity is his. Even after mistakes he's been put back with Jagr. The exception was the Philly game and even then he got some minutes.
Again Lundmark doesnt have to score to necessarily show something.....he needs to have a pulse.
No, I have my pride. I'm also Canadian and wouldn't want to dishonour my country by flopping on the ice like a fish.
Have some dignity.
Mr. Cherry? Is that you?
I would suggest that you take a look at that last remark and apply it accordingly.
Sure...and you werent the one who recieved the spear. You have no idea if he was hurt or acting. At this point it is just speculation on your part.
Whether you are Canadian or not, it has nothing to do with the issue. There are plenty of players from all nationalities who dive, fake injuries etc.
Reading this thread is eye opening.
People...you have to realize that you are stereotyping here, and stereotyping is a form of racism when you lump groups from a certain geographical area into one large pot.
Some of you should realize how ignorant stereotyping is, and should check yourselves. Some of you are assuming that he embelished his injury. Then you are suggesting that he did so because of where he grew up.
It is just as ignorant as one who would say that Canadian hockey players are thugs and cheap shot artists.
Take each player and each situation and base them on thier own merits. Not upon where the hail from.
There are PLENTY, and I mean PLENTY of Euro's who are tough, hard hockey players.
This menatlity is really quite sad to see actually.
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Originally Posted by BigE
These guys now-a-days wouldn't last 5 minutes in the league 10 years ago, never mind 20 or 30.
That is just more pure speculation plain and simple.
Sad to say but many stereotypes are based on some degree of truth. Though in the sake of political correctness that is "taboo" to say.
now if were to say that european hockey players ate babies for breakfast than yeah that's a case for the "what the heck" file.
However there is a big difference in the styles of play, just like there is a big style difference between us college and juniors.
now its not all bad. they tend to have better "skills" and more practice focused on those skills but they also do tend to do a lot of things with their "sticks" and they do tend to dive more.
they're not "evil" but there are certain elements of their game that are different.
Sad to say but many stereotypes are based on some degree of truth. Though in the sake of political correctness that is "taboo" to say.
now if were to say that european hockey players ate babies for breakfast than yeah that's a case for the "what the heck" file.
However there is a big difference in the styles of play, just like there is a big style difference between us college and juniors.
now its not all bad. they tend to have better "skills" and more practice focused on those skills but they also do tend to do a lot of things with their "sticks" and they do tend to dive more.
they're not "evil" but there are certain elements of their game that are different.
I disagree totally. The whole "eat babies" thing is not a very good analogy at all, because it is out of the realm os possibility. People would look at that statement and laugh it off as if you were a quack to say that. The problem lies within the "some degree of truth". If you are stereotyping things with some degree of truth, thus making it believable, then it is all the more dangerous.
Whether you attribute it to political corrctness or not is irrelevant. If you knew me, you would know that I am one of the most UN political correct guys that you will meet.
I do, however, have respect for people. And under no circumstances should anyone stereotype another race, religon, creed, whatever simply based on those things alone.
I am not defending Stbak because he is a Penguin. I am not even defending Strbak really (except to say that the insinuation that he was flopping around because he is Euro is pure speculation-because it is-as if it didnt hurt). I am pointing out, that political correctness or not, it is important that we do not carry these thoughts or pass them along to others. Nothing, and I mean nothing good can come from them. It breeds distrust, hatred and ignorance.
We have swearing filters on these boards to protect kids from coming on here and reading them. I have been guilty of breaking those, so I am not taking a holier than thou approach here. I am just as guilty as anyone when it comes to certain things.
Yet these filters are here because we want this site to be deemed "family friendly" and intelligent.
In my opinion, these stereotyped comments are just as bad, if not worse, and certainly they have the potential to cause more damage to a young mind than an F bomb dropped here or there.
I understand what you are saying about the good stereotypes as well, but I tend to stay away from those as well as they are just as ignorant IMO. I try to base, judge or look at a certain player or thier merits based solely on the player in question, regardless of anything else involved.
Just because there MAY be SOME iota of truth involved in a given stereotype, doesn't make it correct, intelligent or any less damaging than what it is to begin with IMO.
My point is, saying "they do this" and "they do that" is innacurate. Who are they? Euro's? Canadians? Americans? Because not all of "they" nor even most of them, do those things. Each is his own individual. Bottom line.
I disagree totally. The whole "eat babies" thing is not a very good analogy at all, because it is out of the realm os possibility. People would look at that statement and laugh it off as if you were a quack to say that. The problem lies within the "some degree of truth". If you are stereotyping things with some degree of truth, thus making it believable, then it is all the more dangerous.
Yes that's what the analogy was supposed to be.......
But we aren't talking about people, we are talking about a style of playing hockey.
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Whether you attribute it to political corrctness or not is irrelevant. If you knew me, you would know that I am one of the most UN political correct guys that you will meet.
I do, however, have respect for people. And under no circumstances should anyone stereotype another race, religon, creed, whatever simply based on those things alone.
But again no one is talking about them personally, they are talking about a style of playing hockey which is accurate. And I especially know it's accurate because if you ever go over sea's and watch them train it's actually something they practice. Which is one reason why coaches here go nuts often times because they have to untrain them.
You're turning a documented style of play into a racial issue and world politics and sterotypes. If you talk to most european hockey players they'd tell you the same thing. It's their style of play, NOT their personalities.
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I am not defending Stbak because he is a Penguin. I am not even defending Strbak really (except to say that the insinuation that he was flopping around because he is Euro is pure speculation-because it is-as if it didnt hurt). I am pointing out, that political correctness or not, it is important that we do not carry these thoughts or pass them along to others. Nothing, and I mean nothing good can come from them. It breeds distrust, hatred and ignorance.
A. He popped right up after the penalty.
B. He's done it before.
C. It's a text book example of it.
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We have swearing filters on these boards to protect kids from coming on here and reading them. I have been guilty of breaking those, so I am not taking a holier than thou approach here. I am just as guilty as anyone when it comes to certain things.
Yet these filters are here because we want this site to be deemed "family friendly" and intelligent.
What the heck are you even talking about, we're talking about a style of the way hockey is played. So if i said the WHL is a tougher league and the Quebec is a softer league, is that racist too? Am I implying that western canadians are stronger and Quebec leaguers are weak? No, I'm commenting on the style of hockey they are TRAINED to play. Now unless they are born, in the delivery room wth those traits, the references to racism and your whole argument is totally misguided.
They don't play that game because they are European, they play that style of game because they come from a European LEAGUE. Big difference. So if that LEAGUE were called "Wacky Wacky HaHa" LEague, we'd be saying he pulls that wacky wacky haha bullcrap.
There is no federal case to make out of this. But again in people's efforts to be understanding they end up getting them selves to anal and up tight about things that they don't even realize the background of it.
It's the STYLE OF PLAY that is being commented on, NOT THE CULTURE OR NATIOALITY OR ETHNICITY.
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In my opinion, these stereotyped comments are just as bad, if not worse, and certainly they have the potential to cause more damage to a young mind than an F bomb dropped here or there.
You're right because our kids need to grow up in a society that recognizes the imaginary toughness of european hockey styles and and well known training methods. No kid should ever know otherwise. In fact we musn't tell them that the QMJHL tends to produce more one dimensional players than the other two CHL leagues because {gasp} they might associate that with a hatred of the French.
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I understand what you are saying about the good stereotypes as well, but I tend to stay away from those as well as they are just as ignorant IMO. I try to base, judge or look at a certain player or thier merits based solely on the player in question, regardless of anything else involved.
He's a player with a background in a european league who did what a european league trains a player to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like Messier has a background in western canadian leagues and did what is fairly common in western canadian leagues.
Right, wrong or indifferent towards EITHER side, those are the styles of play those area programs tend to produce. There is no deeper social value, there is no analysis to conduct, it's simply the way they were trained.
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Just because there MAY be SOME iota of truth involved in a given stereotype, doesn't make it correct, intelligent or any less damaging than what it is to begin with IMO.
Have you ever actually been to a european league may i ask?
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My point is, saying "they do this" and "they do that" is innacurate. Who are they? Euro's? Canadians? Americans? Because not all of "they" nor even most of them, do those things. Each is his own individual. Bottom line.
THEY are hockey players. THEY are playing certain STYLES that come from certain PROGRAMS.
YOU are the one turning it into an international incident involving RACE and ETHNIC backgrounds.
Yes that's what the analogy was supposed to be.......
But we aren't talking about people, we are talking about a style of playing hockey.
Actually, when you make a stereotypical comment about the style of play of Euro's, we are talking about people. Dress it up however you like, but that is a fact. Whether it be "Euros are soft" or Euro's dive", you are talking about people. In the context of a style of play. Doesn't change that facts. And the facts are that Euro's are not a style of hockey. They are a group of people.
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Originally Posted by Edge
But again no one is talking about them personally, they are talking about a style of playing hockey which is accurate. And I especially know it's accurate because if you ever go over sea's and watch them train it's actually something they practice. Which is one reason why coaches here go nuts often times because they have to untrain them.
Noooo...it ISNT accurate in fact. That is assuming that ALL Euro's, or even MOST Euro's play this style. That is a gross misstatement and simply isnt true. You are telling me that because someone goes over there and watches them train, that they are coached to dive, not check and generally be wimps on the ice? I truly find that hard to believe that a coach would teach them to play that way, but whatever.
Again, you are stereotyping.
Again, that is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Edge
You're turning a documented style of play into a racial issue and world politics and sterotypes. If you talk to most european hockey players they'd tell you the same thing. It's their style of play, NOT their personalities.
I am not turning a documented style of play into a racial argument. I am turning a stereotypical racial comment into a racial issue, and last time I checked, that is what a racial issue is.
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Originally Posted by Edge
A. He popped right up after the penalty.
B. He's done it before.
C. It's a text book example of it.
Oh really? He "popped right back up"? He lay on the ice for about two minutes, with the trainer coming out to take a look at it. I just watched it again on the TIVO, so I really don't think you are accurate. If you were to say that he didnt miss a shift then you would have a leg to stand on. He didnt leave the ice for a good two minutes after it happened.
And please inform me as to when he "did this before". I would really like to see this. Granted, I dont know Strbaks whole career, but seeing as how you butchered the incident in question I am now calling your credibility on Strbak into question.
Give me some proof there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
What the heck are you even talking about, we're talking about a style of the way hockey is played. So if i said the WHL is a tougher league and the Quebec is a softer league, is that racist too? Am I implying that western canadians are stronger and Quebec leaguers are weak? No, I'm commenting on the style of hockey they are TRAINED to play. Now unless they are born, in the delivery room wth those traits, the references to racism and your whole argument is totally misguided.
There is a vast difference between making a comment about multinational leagues and making a comment singling out a certain group of people in said leagues for criticism. That is another bad analogy.
There is nothing misguided about my points. Once again, use semantics all you would like, but when you stereotype a certain group and single them out for ridicule that is wrong.
Commenting on how they are trained is fine, but ridiculing the supposed style and singling out a group for playing that style (when many dont and when many from other nations NON Euro do) is completely false, eronious, and blatantly racial. I feel like a broken record here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
They don't play that game because they are European, they play that style of game because they come from a European LEAGUE. Big difference. So if that LEAGUE were called "Wacky Wacky HaHa" LEague, we'd be saying he pulls that wacky wacky haha bullcrap.
But wacky wacky haha isnt the issue. There is no such thing, and as such there is no potential for damage.
If you said right from the get go that they play that style because they are from a europian league, then I wouldnt have taken such issue with it. As it is (and I never singled you out BTW) there were disparaginf comments made against EURO'S...NOT the league they came from, WHICH IS in fact, a huge difference. Go back and read some of the posts made by others.
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Originally Posted by Edge
There is no federal case to make out of this. But again in people's efforts to be understanding they end up getting them selves to anal and up tight about things that they don't even realize the background of it.
It's the STYLE OF PLAY that is being commented on, NOT THE CULTURE OR NATIOALITY OR ETHNICITY.
Again...read some of the comments. If you feel I am out of line, or egtting "anal" about this then I am sorry. Like I said, I have respect for others and wish no harm brought about by any form of racism, be it large or small.
Singling out Strbak (or any other) simply because he is Euro, and there is a percieved notion that Euro's dive, is simply just not right.
I do feel, however, that you are either changing the argument a little, or that you didnt explain it thouroughly enough, because I dont have a problem with someone commenting on the certain play in a league, provided it is accurate, which I do not feel that is the case entirely here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
You're right because our kids need to grow up in a society that recognizes the imaginary toughness of european hockey styles and and well known training methods. No kid should ever know otherwise. In fact we musn't tell them that the QMJHL tends to produce more one dimensional players than the other two CHL leagues because {gasp} they might associate that with a hatred of the French.
Now you are just being argumentative and sarcastic obviously. I am not stupid and if you want to provide a better, or more accurate case, then dont try to tie those words into what I was saying.
That had nothing to do with my point about kids reading these boards and you know it.
If you said FRENCH players were one dimensional then that would be a stereotype. You didn't and neither did I so this is another poor analogy or a bad attempt at levity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
He's a player with a background in a european league who did what a european league trains a player to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like Messier has a background in western canadian leagues and did what is fairly common in western canadian leagues.
Right, wrong or indifferent towards EITHER side, those are the styles of play those area programs tend to produce. There is no deeper social value, there is no analysis to conduct, it's simply the way they were trained.
Again, this is not the point, though now you are trying to make it the point. It is innacurate, but I wont argue that.
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Originally Posted by Edge
Have you ever actually been to a european league may i ask?
Do I need to go to a Euro league in order to recognize stereotypes? Do I need to have lived in Africa, or Mexico to recognize racial stereotypes against them?
I have read and heard all the comments about how they train, how they are coached, and the stereotypes involved in those. And it doesn't make them anymore right than it does you.
Simply put, they are NOT taught to dive, they are not taught to be "pansies" and they are not taught to use htier sticks to hack the crap out of people.
SOME of thier methods have to do more with finese, and some dont. Just like any other nation.
Do not assume that just because you may or may not have seen them train, that you have seen them all train. Each school is going to be different depending on the coach, program or school attended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
THEY are hockey players. THEY are playing certain STYLES that come from certain PROGRAMS.
YOU are the one turning it into an international incident involving RACE and ETHNIC backgrounds.
The original statements being made were stereotypical statements. If you can not, or unable to see hte harm in that, then I am sorry, but you are wrong. The statement had little to do with thier leagues and more to do with them being "pansies" as you called them. Or that they will "figure skate" around the ice and take advantage of some sort of crackdown as if players from other nationalities WONT do it.
It is wreckless and careless to suggest such things.
If you fail to see that, or are to proud to admit that, tehn I truly am sorry for you.
Insinuations, vague accusations, along with the stereotyping of A group of people are both false and ignorant.
Whether or not it is a big issue, ISNT the issue. Again, I didnt turn anything into an international incident. Last time i checked, I didnt have that power. I simply pointed out the truth. And that truth is that when you lump a whole group of people together, whether it be by race or not, and insult them in the same breath, it is both wrong, wreckless, careless and poor judgement.
You may have the last word as I feel this is falling on deaf ears. I simply resent that fact that you made dispareging remarks about a player or players and tied them into origin. I resent even further that you can't see the possible damage in those remarks.
Actually, when you make a stereotypical comment about the style of play of Euro's, we are talking about people. Dress it up however you like, but that is a fact. Whether it be "Euros are soft" or Euro's dive", you are talking about people. In the context of a style of play. Doesn't change that facts. And the facts are that Euro's are not a style of hockey. They are a group of people.
But we're not talking about the people!
We are talking about the style of hockey the play, which we don't like. We don't hate them because they are European, in fact we don't even hate them. We are talking about a style of play. For the reason if they style of play originated on mars we'd be saying we hate the martian style of hockey.
Again you're the one who keeps draggint this into race with these definitions you've set for yourself within your own mind.
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Noooo...it ISNT accurate in fact. That is assuming that ALL Euro's, or even MOST Euro's play this style. That is a gross misstatement and simply isnt true. You are telling me that because someone goes over there and watches them train, that they are coached to dive, not check and generally be wimps on the ice? I truly find that hard to believe that a coach would teach them to play that way, but whatever.
Again, you are stereotyping.
Again, that is wrong.
They do and i know this because I've worked around hockey for close to 8 years now. If you go over to Europe you'd see that is the style they play. For the same reason why when a player comes here they are taught certain styles and practices. Again whether or not you believe this, that is the way it is. When North American players go out there and they are taught to do and to not do certain things. It's a part of their game. For them it's natural. Just like you'd be likely to find coaches who say "I hate that north american style bullcrap with not drawing penalties".
There is a method behind the action. Penalties equal power play time and power plays are even more dangerous in Europe because the ice rinks are bigger. If you get an opposing player off the ice you just opened up more room. Again it's a STRATEGY. Whether or not you like it is really what the comments are about when you cut right through it.
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I am not turning a documented style of play into a racial argument. I am turning a stereotypical racial comment into a racial issue, and last time I checked, that is what a racial issue is.
So in other words if I am a scout and there is an african american player who plays in the XHL, and I say in the XHL it is a common strategy to fake glove drop. As an observer i notice this guy use that style that is prolific in that league. I say "I really hate it when he uses that XHL fake glove drop, that is such a wussy move".
Notice i didn't focus on the race or the background of the player, i simply focused on where he plays.
The conversation is about the european leagues but you're reading and interpretting it all wrong and going off on a tagent our of left field. No one is against the players for their backgrounds, they just aren't crazy about the game they play. Just as many Europeans aren't crazy about the game we play. They don't hate us as people, they hate the particular style.
It dates all the way back in the history of international competition.
If you wanna turn into racism then fine, but you're going off in a totally different direction. I don't care if they're European, African, Asian, American or Martian. I don't like that particular style of play. If you wanna call it the "Funky" style instead of the European style that's fine. The concept is the same.
I also happen not to like Sushi, but that doesn't mean i hate Japanese people.
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Oh really? He "popped right back up"? He lay on the ice for about two minutes, with the trainer coming out to take a look at it. I just watched it again on the TIVO, so I really don't think you are accurate. If you were to say that he didnt miss a shift then you would have a leg to stand on. He didnt leave the ice for a good two minutes after it happened.
And was he or was he not right back out on the powerplay? Yeah he was really hurt.
Dude i've worked in the industry for 8 years i've seen the play a thousand times. He drew a penalty and he's done moves like that before. Kovalev used to do it to. He'd get hooked and he'd flop to ice like a fish. It's a style ofplay. For the reasons i explained before.
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And please inform me as to when he "did this before". I would really like to see this. Granted, I dont know Strbaks whole career, but seeing as how you butchered the incident in question I am now calling your credibility on Strbak into question.
Give me some proof there.
Oh please you show up here out of left field and challange my credibility? where the heck ahve you been?
You want me to call specific incidents or give you links to video clips? I can't do that, what exactly do you want me to do? You talk any scout who watches european hockey or anyone who watches and you see certain elements of the game. if you watch Strbaks in the future you'll see similar moves. That's about all i can tell you. I don't have a history of every single game in my head. That's like saying "Show me Murray last took a tripping call because you have no proof he's ever tripped anyone".
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There is a vast difference between making a comment about multinational leagues and making a comment singling out a certain group of people in said leagues for criticism. That is another bad analogy.
The leagues are called european leagues, what the heck do you want someone to call them?
We refer to the all the black leagues as "Negro Leagues" because that is what they are called. I didn't name em. LOL you gotta be kidding me.
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There is nothing misguided about my points. Once again, use semantics all you would like, but when you stereotype a certain group and single them out for ridicule that is wrong.
Commenting on how they are trained is fine, but ridiculing the supposed style and singling out a group for playing that style (when many dont and when many from other nations NON Euro do) is completely false, eronious, and blatantly racial. I feel like a broken record here...
you're making about as much sense as one too i might add.
That is thr STYLE they play. If you wanna interview a european coach to ease your mind go for it. They'll tell you the same thing.
You're the ONLY person making an issue out of this and it's a nonpoint.
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But wacky wacky haha isnt the issue. There is no such thing, and as such there is no potential for damage.
If you said right from the get go that they play that style because they are from a europian league, then I wouldnt have taken such issue with it. As it is (and I never singled you out BTW) there were disparaginf comments made against EURO'S...NOT the league they came from, WHICH IS in fact, a huge difference. Go back and read some of the posts made by others.
I said there was some degree of truth in them and gave my point of view. So if others said something why are you arguing with me?
Again you're looking for anything you can grasp on to.
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Again...read some of the comments. If you feel I am out of line, or egtting "anal" about this then I am sorry. Like I said, I have respect for others and wish no harm brought about by any form of racism, be it large or small.
Singling out Strbak (or any other) simply because he is Euro, and there is a percieved notion that Euro's dive, is simply just not right.
I do feel, however, that you are either changing the argument a little, or that you didnt explain it thouroughly enough, because I dont have a problem with someone commenting on the certain play in a league, provided it is accurate, which I do not feel that is the case entirely here.
I think you need to learn bit more about international hockey before you assume other people are being racist and i also think you've got a bit of definition searching before you start throwing words like racism out there.
Go to Europe and watch a hockey game and watch how they train, THEN we'll have a common ground to talk on. Because until you see that the coaches actually encourage and understand why, there's nothing i can tell you becuase you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Racism is the discimination and hatred of the PEOPLE.
No one hates the people or has even suggest they be banned. People don't like the STYLE of play which is being taught to those players. There is a reason it's being taught, because it's benefical to the LEAGUES they play in to get a powerplay.
There's nothing else i can say to describe it. Where's Riz {Finnish Ranger fan} when you need him?
That's all there is too it. It's not the people, it's the style of play. It has nothing to do with them personally. I dont know how much more clear i can be about that.
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Now you are just being argumentative and sarcastic obviously. I am not stupid and if you want to provide a better, or more accurate case, then dont try to tie those words into what I was saying.
That had nothing to do with my point about kids reading these boards and you know it.
If you said FRENCH players were one dimensional then that would be a stereotype. You didn't and neither did I so this is another poor analogy or a bad attempt at levity.
This argument is already over dude. There's nothing i say that can change the terms and the definitions you've given yourself.
European hockey players play a certain style of game. Why such a broad category you ask? Because the countries are smaller than the US. We play across 3000 miles and stay in the same country. They travel 3000 miles and they are on a different continent. As a result there are certain universal elements that they've adapted while playing each other.
The drawing of penalties is one of them. Because ALL european leagues have larger ice surfaces it is beneficial to ALL teams that play EACH OTHER to have the same strategies. One of those strategies is opening up EVEN MORE ice so that you can score points. It is not wrong or immoral {And i never said it was} it's different. Personally i dont like it. That is all, the long and the shot of it. Simple as that. Take that for what it's worth. If you consider that offensive, oh well, there's not much i can do to please one person who out thousands on this board personally finds it offensive.
Again, this is not the point, though now you are trying to make it the point. It is innacurate, but I wont argue that.
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Do I need to go to a Euro league in order to recognize stereotypes? Do I need to have lived in Africa, or Mexico to recognize racial stereotypes against them?
I have read and heard all the comments about how they train, how they are coached, and the stereotypes involved in those. And it doesn't make them anymore right than it does you.
Simply put, they are NOT taught to dive, they are not taught to be "pansies" and they are not taught to use htier sticks to hack the crap out of people.
SOME of thier methods have to do more with finese, and some dont. Just like any other nation.
Do not assume that just because you may or may not have seen them train, that you have seen them all train. Each school is going to be different depending on the coach, program or school attended.
{sigh} you seriously have no understanding of international hockey so this isnt even going to make sense, but i'll try anyway.
Because ALL {not sum or a few} but ALL of the ice surfaces in europe are bigger, the game HAS TO be played differently. Drawing penalties can hurt your opposition even more because it leaves them with LESS players and even MORE ice to cover.
Whether or not you want to believe they are taught to dive and draw penalties is up to you, BUT it is a part of the game.
I was not the one who called them pansies, so again you are arguing it the wrong person.
The school of thought is different, but that part if a huge part of their training. You're looking at the penalties as if it is offensive to say they draw penalties which again i never said. It is simply a part of their game. Similar to how in Japanese baseball you DON'T spit on the field. You DON'T try to take players out while sliding and games CAN end in a tie.
It's all part of a stategy. All i said was i personally don't like it. As for the other comments you're again aruging with the wrong person.
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The original statements being made were stereotypical statements. If you can not, or unable to see hte harm in that, then I am sorry, but you are wrong. The statement had little to do with thier leagues and more to do with them being "pansies" as you called them. Or that they will "figure skate" around the ice and take advantage of some sort of crackdown as if players from other nationalities WONT do it.
And that is your opinion. And if you think you're right, God bless you have fun.
Again I'll ask, when did I call them pansies. You are again getting someone's elses post mixed with mine.
Read my original posts. i said some stereotypes are true. i meantioned the drawing penalties and other things.
NOT ONCE did i call them pansies. You are mixing what someone else with what i said.
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It is wreckless and careless to suggest such things.
what did i suggest? you even know what the heck points are your arguing anymore.
i was wreckless to say that the european style encourages penalties?
go back and re-read my first post. you are arguing against things i never even said to try and justify it to yourself.
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If you fail to see that, or are to proud to admit that, tehn I truly am sorry for you.
Insinuations, vague accusations, along with the stereotyping of A group of people are both false and ignorant.
it's a fact that they draw penalties. My god how difficult is that to understand. i never said it was wrong, i said it was there style.
go talk to someone familiar with european hockey. it's part of their game. there's nothing wrong with. i just personally dont like it.
what the heck is so hard to grasp about that. Dude you're not even listening to a dang thing i've said because your simply waiting for your turn to spout off about your views on life.
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Whether or not it is a big issue, ISNT the issue. Again, I didnt turn anything into an international incident. Last time i checked, I didnt have that power. I simply pointed out the truth. And that truth is that when you lump a whole group of people together, whether it be by race or not, and insult them in the same breath, it is both wrong, wreckless, careless and poor judgement.
pointing out the differences in their game to our is wrong? then what is the point of multi-culutral classes in a university or college.
I've never seen someone take a comment and totally run off in a tagent with it.
the truth is that is the style they play. the truth is that is the way they are trained. and the truth is your arguing with yourself because someone of your interpretations of my comments are completely out of nowhere.
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You may have the last word as I feel this is falling on deaf ears. I simply resent that fact that you made dispareging remarks about a player or players and tied them into origin. I resent even further that you can't see the possible damage in those remarks.
You wanna remind me of what damaging remarks those were again?
I think your arguing with the wrong person on this. Because my first post even said within it:
However there is a big difference in the styles of play, just like there is a big style difference between us college and juniors.
now its not all bad. they tend to have better "skills" and more practice focused on those skills but they also do tend to do a lot of things with their "sticks" and they do tend to dive more.
they're not "evil" but there are certain elements of their game that are different.
so lemme get this straight, i am so racist and prejudice that i just said the differences in someone's game aren't evil or bad, they are simply different?
What i miss here. And that was my FIRST post so it;s not like i changed my story.
So right away that throws any "hatred" or "bias" you think i have against them and leaves the single issue of how they are trained which is a fact.
Now you wanna look at the pansy comment and "i'm a candian" you're looking at the wrong person.
I never called em pansies and i'm not canadian. But you must missed that while your zealousness was doing zero to 60.
if anything i took the middle ground of the original argument between you and the other poster. However i obviously dont see it enough your way so you're having a trantrum about it. But then again I'm obviously biased, racist, insensitive, uncredible and generally ignorant so what do I know.
Obviously enough to actually read what someone wrote before turning it into an epic.
Edge ... you going to law school? If not you should. The US needs solid Litagators nowadays ... oh wait, was that racist, I said US and something else in the same sentence ... I'm sorry didn't mean to offend anyone.
The most absurd discussion I've seen on this board.
To say that European players are trained and play the game differently then Canadians (and Americans for that matter) is not a racist statement - it's an accurate fact.
To go on and on about this is rather aburd, and borders on being so politically correct that people cannot have an intelligent conversation. European players are trained differently and tend to dive or flop to the ice. The Kovalev example was a classic one. This is not to say that ALL European players play the game this way.
As someone who had been involved in this sport for quite a long time (both as a player and in other roles), I can tell you that the Messier play (while dirty) is typical and happens in the NHL year in and year out. Sometimes it's caught, sometimes not. The player dropped to the ice like Messier Stabbed him with a sword - and poof - he's back out for the Power Play. That type of injury - a bruise to the stomach - is not tremendously painful. If he would have caught the ribs or other portion of bone with a stick, you might conceed that it was painful and he popped back up. (LIke taking a shot off the ball of your foot). Messier deserved what he got (I would have given a game), but the player clearly milked the injury.
Edge, why are you even taking the time to argue the racial sensitivity about something that has nothing to do with race, rather just a style of playing the game?
Edge ... you going to law school? If not you should. The US needs solid Litagators nowadays ... oh wait, was that racist, I said US and something else in the same sentence ... I'm sorry didn't mean to offend anyone.
No it wasn't racist. Wasn't funny either. I assume that is an attempt at levity...
I actually went to take the middle ground on the subject.
Being racist against Europeans would be foolish considering most of my family is from Europe and has arrived in the past century.
I dunno it's my stupid side. I can't back away from an argument sometime.
It's something I personally need to learn to work on.
I agree. I dont think it is a bad thing that we have this debate, regardless of who is right or wrong. Through debate and discussion, people learn and grow.
Debating with an intelligent person is always a good time, assuming it stays in the form of a good debate and not personal.
If I made it personal to you, or attacked you, then I apologize. It wasnt my intent. Have fun and good luck next season....
when you hear so much about diving these days, but in the 70s and 80s, and even early 90s (sorry, I was born in 1969, so I can't talk to prior periods) you heard very little, if anything, about diving. Then came the Euro invasion. There were Euros here and there, but not to the extent to which we saw them come here in the 90s and 00s. And heck, now they've even developed a penalty called diving, or unsportsmanlike conduct. It's not prejudice to state such. It is ignorant to say that because someone's European, that he's a wuss, a diver, etc., as not every one is. And many Euros have adapted to the North American game. Heck, Kovalev, when he was 21, 22, 23, was throwing his gloves up in the air and grabbing his throat when a guy breathed on him. Now, he takes much abuse (retaliates too often because it takes a lot for AK to get the call), and will tend to embellish, but it's not like it was in the mid-90s.
since when does the term "European" refer to race? I thought that it refered to ethnicity. The argument in question may be discriminatory, but it has nothing to do with race.
