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Old
05-10-2009, 01:37 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Gagner is Oilers fans golden boy, and in turn, they tend to overate his value. Both Staal and Gagner played in the NHL directly after they were drafted - Staal is one year older then Gagner. Staal scored 29 goals in his first season - Gagner scored 29 goals in first first two seasons.
Both Gagner and Staal's season high point totals are 49 points. Not to mention that Staal is grittier, bigger, and better defensively then Gagner.

I am not saying the Oilers would trade Hemsky for Staal, but the Penguins would only consider trading Staal for one of Hemsky or Gagner.

Ya, Gagner is a playmaker. Gagner scored 90pts in his first two seasons Staal scored 70. See, anyone can twist stats. Your right, Oilers fans overrate Gagner, but IMO Staal and Gagner have similar value.

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05-10-2009, 01:37 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Gagner is Oilers fans golden boy, and in turn, they tend to overate his value. Both Staal and Gagner played in the NHL directly after they were drafted - Staal is one year older then Gagner. Staal scored 29 goals in his first season - Gagner scored 29 goals in first first two seasons.

Both Gagner and Staal's season high point totals are 49 points. Not to mention that Staal is grittier, bigger, and better defensively then Gagner.

I am not saying the Oilers would trade Hemsky for Staal, but the Penguins would only consider trading Staal for one of Hemsky or Gagner.
Offensively, Gagner has produced ahead of where Staal was at the same age. Obviously Staal's size and defensive ability are a big factor in comparing the two.

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:18 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Gagner is Oilers fans golden boy, and in turn, they tend to overate his value. Both Staal and Gagner played in the NHL directly after they were drafted - Staal is one year older then Gagner. Staal scored 29 goals in his first season - Gagner scored 29 goals in first first two seasons.

Both Gagner and Staal's season high point totals are 49 points. Not to mention that Staal is grittier, bigger, and better defensively then Gagner.

I am not saying the Oilers would trade Hemsky for Staal, but the Penguins would only consider trading Staal for one of Hemsky or Gagner.
Hilarious....and you know this how?

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 40oz View Post
Ya, Gagner is a playmaker. Gagner scored 90pts in his first two seasons Staal scored 70. See, anyone can twist stats. Your right, Oilers fans overrate Gagner, but IMO Staal and Gagner have similar value.
Goals are worth more then assists. Anyway, I never said that Gagner wasn't worth around Staal. My point from the beginning, was that it would take Gagner, or Hemsky for the Penguins to trade Staal. Obviously Hemsky is worth more.

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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie View Post
Offensively, Gagner has produced ahead of where Staal was at the same age. Obviously Staal's size and defensive ability are a big factor in comparing the two.
Depends on if you want to look at goals vs. assists.

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Hilarious....and you know this how?
What a stupid post. Obviously it is speculation, this is a message board.

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:59 PM
  #30
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Old
05-10-2009, 03:17 PM
  #31
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what about
Staal and Pit #1 for
O'Sullivan and Edm #1

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Old
05-10-2009, 03:34 PM
  #32
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Oiler fans should be happy Tornoto fans are out there to keep them from being the worst trade proposers on this board.

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Old
05-10-2009, 04:05 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Depends on if you want to look at goals vs. assists.
At Gagner's age, Staal was coming off a 12g, 28pt season.

For all the ROFLing and LOLing about Gagner's season, 16 goals and 41 points is very respectable for a 19 year old, particularly one who's been considered primarily a playmaker.

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Old
05-10-2009, 04:22 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie View Post
At Gagner's age, Staal was coming off a 12g, 28pt season.

For all the ROFLing and LOLing about Gagner's season, 16 goals and 41 points is very respectable for a 19 year old, particularly one who's been considered primarily a playmaker.
At Gagner's age, Staal had already scored 29 goals in one season, which is as much as Gagner has scored all time. I like Gagner a lot, and think he will develop into a very good center - a poor man's Sakic - capable of notching 60-80 points. Him and Staal have similar value, but I do like the fact that Staal is bigger, stronger, grittier, and better defensively then Gagner. I also like the fact that Staal's a better goal scorer then Gagner.

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Old
05-10-2009, 04:24 PM
  #35
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Just a thought to those Pens fans saying Gagner would have to be going the other way, wouldn't that leave you worse off? Gagner is also a centre, and is by no means a third line one that you can throw out against the other teams top lines. I would think you guys would ask for Cogliano before Gagner, along with O'Sullivan. Or maybe Penner? (He has shown he can score with high level players)

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Old
05-10-2009, 05:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by faiz View Post
Just a thought to those Pens fans saying Gagner would have to be going the other way, wouldn't that leave you worse off? Gagner is also a centre, and is by no means a third line one that you can throw out against the other teams top lines. I would think you guys would ask for Cogliano before Gagner, along with O'Sullivan. Or maybe Penner? (He has shown he can score with high level players)
we don't have any bad contracts that the Oilers can take back for Penner making that impossible. Oilers and Pens don't make good partners.Isn't Cogs a centre to?Gagner is a player with similar value to Staal so a trade can only work for Staal if it is for Gagner or as part of a package for Hemsky.

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Old
05-10-2009, 06:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
we don't have any bad contracts that the Oilers can take back for Penner making that impossible. Oilers and Pens don't make good partners.Isn't Cogs a centre to?Gagner is a player with similar value to Staal so a trade can only work for Staal if it is for Gagner or as part of a package for Hemsky.
Yes Cogs is a centre, but is more of a two way than gagner. Penner is making the same as Staal next year, yes you guys do gain salary, but I think Penner with one of Crosby or Malkin will live up to his contract (as a rookie with Getzlaf and Perry he scored 29 goals, could definitely score 30 with Pitts). I think you are being a bit narrow minded when you say it can only work with one of gagner or hemsky.

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Old
05-10-2009, 07:11 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Goals are worth more then assists. Anyway, I never said that Gagner wasn't worth around Staal. My point from the beginning, was that it would take Gagner, or Hemsky for the Penguins to trade Staal. Obviously Hemsky is worth more.



Depends on if you want to look at goals vs. assists.



What a stupid post. Obviously it is speculation, this is a message board.
That Gretzky guy really sucked. All those assists, they're worth nothing!

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Old
05-10-2009, 08:13 PM
  #39
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Staal may well be a cap casualty down the line, but I'd like to hang onto him until then unless there's an offer that's too good to pass up.

It's important to have someone to bridge that gap between your bottom six and top six.

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Old
05-10-2009, 08:18 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Hodgson View Post
Gagner is Oilers fans golden boy, and in turn, they tend to overate his value. Both Staal and Gagner played in the NHL directly after they were drafted - Staal is one year older then Gagner. Staal scored 29 goals in his first season - Gagner scored 29 goals in first first two seasons.

Both Gagner and Staal's season high point totals are 49 points. Not to mention that Staal is grittier, bigger, and better defensively then Gagner.

I am not saying the Oilers would trade Hemsky for Staal, but the Penguins would only consider trading Staal for one of Hemsky or Gagner.
Sam Gagner scored 90 points in his first two seasons. Jordan Staal scored 70 points in his first two seasons.

It's easy to manipulate stats. In the end, you can't compare these players as they fill completely different rolls.

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Old
05-10-2009, 09:37 PM
  #41
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By tweaking I hope you mean the oilers adding a good prospect or a First.
Was thinking something along the lines of a Riley Nash, or Taylor Chorney, but not really sure what Pittsburgh would be looking for in a prospect.

Of course, if the Pens really are comfortable with having that much depth at center, that's fine. Doesn't seem like it's hindered them too much so far.

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Old
05-10-2009, 09:59 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by faiz View Post
Yes Cogs is a centre, but is more of a two way than gagner. Penner is making the same as Staal next year, yes you guys do gain salary, but I think Penner with one of Crosby or Malkin will live up to his contract (as a rookie with Getzlaf and Perry he scored 29 goals, could definitely score 30 with Pitts). I think you are being a bit narrow minded when you say it can only work with one of gagner or hemsky.
Far too much risk to trade for Penner,great if he pots 30 goals but an absolute waste if he wants to be Fat and Lazy, I'd rather have Staal's good defense and 25 goals.

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Old
05-10-2009, 10:38 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faiz View Post
Yes Cogs is a centre, but is more of a two way than gagner. Penner is making the same as Staal next year, yes you guys do gain salary, but I think Penner with one of Crosby or Malkin will live up to his contract (as a rookie with Getzlaf and Perry he scored 29 goals, could definitely score 30 with Pitts). I think you are being a bit narrow minded when you say it can only work with one of gagner or hemsky.
He really isn't, nobody else is of interest to the Pens at least not of enough interest to do a deal involving Staal.

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Old
05-10-2009, 10:48 PM
  #44
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Gagner and Hemsky...a small playmaking center and an unphysical playmaking winger.

They're just what Pittsburgh needs. Thank you for the astute evaluation of our deficiencies and the attempt to adequately address them.

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05-10-2009, 10:57 PM
  #45
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Honestly, that's pretty solid numbers for a guy put out there every shift to stop the other teams top scoring line. Previously I thought that the Pens needed to deal Staal to get some cap relief and to round out their lineup a bit but now, after watching him for the 2ns half of the season and in the playoffs, the Pens actually rely on him one hell of a lot.

Now I'm not a Pens fan (I'm a flyers fan but 2 of my kids are Pens fans) but I do get to watch them a good bit each season. Staal is a much much better player than most people know. I honestly believe he's one of the top 5 defensive forwards in the league.
What's scary is that he's only 20 years old. Severe overpayment will be the only way to pry this kid from Ray Shero's clutches.

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05-10-2009, 11:11 PM
  #46
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That Gretzky guy really sucked. All those assists, they're worth nothing!
Didn't that Gretzky guy have 92 goals one season?

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Old
05-11-2009, 01:45 AM
  #47
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Your argument is off. The first game of the series, the Pens started Staal against AO's line. That lasted all but 2 shifts before the Caps coach switched things up. The Caps were at home tonight, they had last change, they felt AO's line would be more successful against Malkin.

In the Philly series, when Pens had last change, they had Staal on Carter. When Flyers had last change they had Carter against Crosby or Malkin.
No, that's exactly the problem... at away games they Staal can be avoided via coaching, but that doesn't mean the argument is bogus.

Power vs. Power is a valid coaching strategy. I value those player that can handle top forwards while producing points - Malkin, Datysuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Iginla. Checking centers - Marchant, Pahlsson, Staal, Kesler... are nice but not incredibly valuable trade-wise. And often when the coach plays P vs P.. the checking centers get also-ran/minced-meat 2nd/3rd/4th liners and should be producing points. If not, their upside is limited.

For the record, I like 3rd line gritty centers like Bolland, Staal, and Pahlsson... but often they lack the offensive skill to be more than good two-way 2nd liners (if that).

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05-11-2009, 02:17 AM
  #48
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For the record, I like 3rd line gritty centers like Bolland, Staal, and Pahlsson... but often they lack the offensive skill to be more than good two-way 2nd liners (if that).
One thing to clear here - I think Pahlsson is awesome. Neither Bolland or Staal touches him defensively. But both of them can and have already exceeded any offensive output he has ever had.

Bolland is proving a clutch scorer in the playoffs now and upped his production ever since Pahlsson came in, which has given him a scoring line role. He is not just a grinder.
Staal is 20 years old, has scored more than Bolland, and has never had that scoring role on the team except for times of injury to Crosby. He has never had wingers who elevated him either. Its pretty iffy to not allow for the possibility that he can become more than he currently is offensively when maturing and being put in a different scenario where scoring is expected of him.

There's no reason to think that Jordan won't get much closer to Erik Staal than he is now in a couple of years.

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Old
05-12-2009, 07:59 PM
  #49
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No, that's exactly the problem... at away games they Staal can be avoided via coaching, but that doesn't mean the argument is bogus.

Power vs. Power is a valid coaching strategy. I value those player that can handle top forwards while producing points - Malkin, Datysuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Iginla. Checking centers - Marchant, Pahlsson, Staal, Kesler... are nice but not incredibly valuable trade-wise. And often when the coach plays P vs P.. the checking centers get also-ran/minced-meat 2nd/3rd/4th liners and should be producing points. If not, their upside is limited.

For the record, I like 3rd line gritty centers like Bolland, Staal, and Pahlsson... but often they lack the offensive skill to be more than good two-way 2nd liners (if that).
You said that opponents try to put their best guys against Staal. That is why your argument is flawed, because that is one of the furthest things from the truth.

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Old
05-12-2009, 10:20 PM
  #50
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Just a thought to those Pens fans saying Gagner would have to be going the other way, wouldn't that leave you worse off? Gagner is also a centre, and is by no means a third line one that you can throw out against the other teams top lines. I would think you guys would ask for Cogliano before Gagner, along with O'Sullivan. Or maybe Penner? (He has shown he can score with high level players)
I totally agree man i would say cogliano would definetly be more value to pitt
it would be sweet to see staal in an oilers jersey but the way that he is playing can they afford to give him up?

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