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Old
05-14-2009, 10:11 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by CaptainCannon View Post
Thread officially derailed.
For some, alas, all threads lead to how the coach sucks.

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05-14-2009, 10:12 AM
  #52
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I don't want to "rush" JVR either but it is frustrating to see:

a) Kane scoring three goals in a series-clinching win, and

b) our guy "sucking" at the AHL

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05-14-2009, 12:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I don't want to "rush" JVR either but it is frustrating to see:

a) Kane scoring three goals in a series-clinching win, and

b) our guy "sucking" at the AHL
Yeah, it is, but unfortunately that's the way the lottery ball bounces. It stinks that we had a top pick in a weak draft year.

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05-14-2009, 01:09 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yeah, it is, but unfortunately that's the way the lottery ball bounces. It stinks that we had a top pick in a weak draft year.
I find it sad that the lottery was installed to make sure that teams can't merely tank and expect the top pick... The Flyers, after decades, EARN the top pick by being the worst team by leaps and bounds... and the lottery takes the top player from them.

Meanwhile, in a very strong year with a can't miss top pick, the lottery hands over the top potential superstar to a team that already has multiple top overall picks and various other top tier selections... A team that some claim tanked in past sucking years to gain even better picks.

Ironic, isn't it?

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05-14-2009, 01:12 PM
  #55
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So JVR is "sucking" in the AHL after 12 games. Wasn't Giroux like a -8 after 7 AHL games? But nobody said anything there.

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05-14-2009, 01:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
So JVR is "sucking" in the AHL after 12 games. Wasn't Giroux like a -8 after 7 AHL games? But nobody said anything there.
If you don't think his struggles early on were noted, then you weren't paying attention.

Need to tone down the sensitivity with regard to JVR a bit. If the bar is Patrick Kane, then JVR "sucking" is a pretty fair statement in comparison.

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05-14-2009, 01:22 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you don't think his struggles early on were noted, then you weren't paying attention.

Need to tone down the sensitivity with regard to JVR a bit. If the bar is Patrick Kane, then JVR "sucking" is a pretty fair statement in comparison.
Huh? I don't really get your 2nd comment? I think we all figured out from Day 1 that JVR's development curve was going to be slower than Kane's.

Obviously I'd rather have Kane (who wouldn't?), but saying that JVR is "sucking" in comparison to him is dumb. Bobby Ryan has "sucked" in comparison to Sidney Crosby, does that make him some kind of huge disappointment?

EDIT: I should add that for someone who enjoys jumping on the "bash Briere for his defense" bandwagon, it's worth noting that Kane is a deficient defensive player (well below-average) and a bit of a PP specialist (half of his total points this past year were on the PP).

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05-14-2009, 01:25 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Huh? I don't really get your 2nd comment? I think we all figured out from Day 1 that JVR's development curve was going to be slower than Kane's.
...largely irrelevant to the point being made.

Quote:
Obviously I'd rather have Kane (who wouldn't?), but saying that JVR is "sucking" in comparison to him is dumb. Bobby Ryan has "sucked" in comparison to Sidney Crosby, does that make him some kind of huge disappointment?
No, but it doesn't make the comparative statement false, does it?

Quote:
EDIT: I should add that for someone who enjoys jumping on the "bash Briere for his defense" bandwagon, it's worth noting that Kane is a deficient defensive player (well below-average) and a bit of a PP specialist (half of his total points this past year were on the PP).
He's also not getting paid 6.5M to kill the Flyers salary cap. And, ya know, plays wing. But, sure lets conflate completely and utterly different scenarios into one to make a meaningless point that looks good until you blow on it. If Briere was making Kane's salary, I'd love him.

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05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
  #59
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I dunno, I really like Kane, he's a very exciting player. I'd choose him over JVR right now because JVR is still just a prospect.

However, there are some points worth considering.

- Kane is well-below average defensively whereas JVR developed into a good 2-way player in college.
- Kane does play on a pretty stacked offensive team.
- JVR is a big guy, an increasingly rare commodity in today's NHL.

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05-14-2009, 01:32 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's also not getting paid 6.5M to kill the Flyers salary cap. And, ya know, plays wing. But, sure lets conflate completely and utterly different scenarios into one to make a meaningless point that looks good until you blow on it. If Briere was making Kane's salary, I'd love him.
Kane is going to get paid 5-6 mill after next year to kill the Hawks salary cap, same thing.

And Briere should be playing wing, it's also worth noticing that he finished -1 in 30 games this year, not really a disaster.

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05-14-2009, 01:35 PM
  #61
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Can we all finally think of Briere as a wing?

Anyone who thinks he is still a decent center doesnt watch hockey.

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05-14-2009, 02:21 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
I find it sad that the lottery was installed to make sure that teams can't merely tank and expect the top pick... The Flyers, after decades, EARN the top pick by being the worst team by leaps and bounds... and the lottery takes the top player from them.

Meanwhile, in a very strong year with a can't miss top pick, the lottery hands over the top potential superstar to a team that already has multiple top overall picks and various other top tier selections... A team that some claim tanked in past sucking years to gain even better picks.

Ironic, isn't it?
Yeah, that's the thing I hate about the lottery. It is supposed to prevent tanking, but it punishes the teams that are legitimately awful. Technically teams may still tank because when the top two talents are pretty even like this year or in 04 then a team can tank to finish last because they'll be guaranteed to end up with a franchise player no matter what happens.

I am not too bitter about it, though, because we didn't need Kane to turn our franchise around. Ironically Chicago was screwed out of Malkin because of the lottery so in some way it is fitting that they ended up with Kane. Too bad it had to be at our expense.

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05-14-2009, 02:34 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Can we all finally think of Briere as a wing?

Anyone who thinks he is still a decent center doesnt watch hockey.
I believe that it is purely a circumstantial situation with Briere and the Flyers... a case of development and need. Players are not locked into positions -- remember that Mark Howe was a winger initially -- Need and squad/organization makeup sometimes determines player use... When Briere was signed here as a number one center the team was not sure of how far and how fast the centers in the system were going to develop, if in fact they were to become NHL quality centers... Since Briere's signing Richards and Carter have become exceptional NHL centers on the rise... This year Briere was hurt and Giroux proved to the Flyers that he was better suited to play center and his skills were enhanced at that position; his perception was keener and his play was more effective.

Briere in the front portion of a long contract at huge money was not to be a fourth line center and had to be given top six minutes -- including PP time -- Add to that his apparent ability to play well with Giroux, and be able to mentor him, Danny fit well into Briere's wing and 1st PP unit time.

Briere is a proven scorer who can and has potted key goals at important times over his career... and has proven to be a very good postseason player and one that is good down the stretch. Danny will be a major player on this team over the next few seasons, IMO, and may very well split time over the years at both center and wing.

"Can we finally think of Briere as a wing?";... Who knows what the makeup of the team will be over the course of his contract? Who knows if injury will dictate his playing center, or that moves and/or ineffectiveness by other players may make his playing center a logical situation?... Personally, I'd list him as a Center/Wing and use him as circumstances dictate, and I'd make sure to use him when more offense is required... and use him sparingly in defensive situations.

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05-14-2009, 02:40 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
I believe that it is purely a circumstantial situation with Briere and the Flyers... a case of development and need. Players are not locked into positions -- remember that Mark Howe was a winger initially -- Need and squad/organization makeup sometimes determines player use... When Briere was signed here as a number one center the team was not sure of how far and how fast the centers in the system were going to develop, if in fact they were to become NHL quality centers... Since Briere's signing Richards and Carter have become exceptional NHL centers on the rise... This year Briere was hurt and Giroux proved to the Flyers that he was better suited to play center and his skills were enhanced at that position; his perception was keener and his play was more effective.

Briere in the front portion of a long contract at huge money was not to be a fourth line center and had to be given top six minutes -- including PP time -- Add to that his apparent ability to play well with Giroux, and be able to mentor him, Danny fit well into Briere's wing and 1st PP unit time.

Briere is a proven scorer who can and has potted key goals at important times over his career... and has proven to be a very good postseason player and one that is good down the stretch. Danny will be a major player on this team over the next few seasons, IMO, and may very well split time over the years at both center and wing.

"Can we finally think of Briere as a wing?";... Who knows what the makeup of the team will be over the course of his contract? Who knows if injury will dictate his playing center, or that moves and/or ineffectiveness by other players may make his playing center a logical situation?... Personally, I'd list him as a Center/Wing and use him as circumstances dictate, and I'd make sure to use him when more offense is required... and use him sparingly in defensive situations.
When he is on the ice, whether he is a C or W, he still plays like a wing.

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05-14-2009, 02:43 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
When he is on the ice, whether he is a C or W, he still plays like a wing.
I don't see why is this such a huge issue. Briere should be a top-6 winger. We have our two top-6 centers for the foreseeable future. Therefore, Briere should be on the RW for either Carter or Richards.

The real, real key for us is find a great defensive 3rd line C somewhere which is tougher than it sounds.

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05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
When he is on the ice, whether he is a C or W, he still plays like a wing.
And it could be said that when he on a line with Giroux and Powe it is a helecopter line (no wings).


Seriously, I agree that he is not the ideal center... especially defensively... But he was centering a real good line with Gagne and Knuble when they all were healthy, and played the role well in Buffalo with the right wingers.

I see him as an advantage rather than an albatross... But his salary in the Cap Era, and glut of top line and potential top line centers, is not the best situation for a Cap strapped team.

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05-14-2009, 03:17 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I don't see why is this such a huge issue. Briere should be a top-6 winger. We have our two top-6 centers for the foreseeable future. Therefore, Briere should be on the RW for either Carter or Richards.

The real, real key for us is find a great defensive 3rd line C somewhere which is tougher than it sounds.
I see Girioux as not being far off from a top center... and he has proven to be able to play both sides of the puck well. I can see him being a top center with Carter down the line, with Richards playing a Primeau role... and logging many minutes on specialty teams. I think they are fixed well at center, but require a veteran 4th line center who can be spotted higher and can win face off at an exceptional clip in the crunch.

... And I like Briere with Giroux and minutes on the PP.

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05-14-2009, 03:17 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I don't see why is this such a huge issue. Briere should be a top-6 winger. We have our two top-6 centers for the foreseeable future. Therefore, Briere should be on the RW for either Carter or Richards.

The real, real key for us is find a great defensive 3rd line C somewhere which is tougher than it sounds.
Especially when you can't pay them since you have Briere playing wing for 6.5M.

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05-14-2009, 03:30 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Especially when you can't pay them since you have Briere playing wing for 6.5M.
It's not like there are no $6.5M (or higher) wingers in the NHL... Briere was the team's leading scorer, both points and goals, in the one season that he was healthy here. Carter and Richards have come on, granted, but I can see him putting up major numbers off the wing if he stays in the lineup.

... That is not to suggest in the least that there is not a major Cap problem on the team... It is however to say that it doesn't fall solely on him, and he can still prove to be worth his contract -- in relation to other inflated salaried players in the NHL.


AND, you can't say that they can't pay Richards and Carters' large salaries while paying Briere... Things just have to be adjusted elsewhere.

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05-14-2009, 03:39 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Especially when you can't pay them since you have Briere playing wing for 6.5M.
Briere's 6.5 isn't going to cost us Carter and Richards, it's going to cost us Giroux or JVR most likely and/or Gagne, time to stop crying.

I mean again, everyone has the hard-on for Patrick Kane, if he has an 80 point season next year (quite possible), he'll be making a very tidy cap figure and he's just as bad defensively as Briere is.

Briere had 25 points in 29 games for the regular season while coming back from groin and abdominal injuries and was probably one of our better playoff players, that line with Giroux was certainly our best line.

I think if you give Briere a full season on Richie's or Carter's wing, he probably hits 85-90 points and for 6.5 mill, that really isn't a disaster. He's also a proven playoff performer and I personally think the guy has a lot of heart.

Anyways, this was a JVR thread in the first place. My original point was that Kane isn't a Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin, maybe not even a Toews or an EJ. If we had to choose a draft to get shafted out of the No.1 pick, this one would be as good as many.

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05-14-2009, 04:16 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
It's not like there are no $6.5M (or higher) wingers in the NHL... Briere was the team's leading scorer, both points and goals, in the one season that he was healthy here. Carter and Richards have come on, granted, but I can see him putting up major numbers off the wing if he stays in the lineup.
Richards was the leading point-getter.

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05-14-2009, 04:32 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Briere's 6.5 isn't going to cost us Carter and Richards, it's going to cost us Giroux or JVR most likely and/or Gagne, time to stop crying.

I mean again, everyone has the hard-on for Patrick Kane, if he has an 80 point season next year (quite possible), he'll be making a very tidy cap figure and he's just as bad defensively as Briere is.

Briere had 25 points in 29 games for the regular season while coming back from groin and abdominal injuries and was probably one of our better playoff players, that line with Giroux was certainly our best line.

I think if you give Briere a full season on Richie's or Carter's wing, he probably hits 85-90 points and for 6.5 mill, that really isn't a disaster. He's also a proven playoff performer and I personally think the guy has a lot of heart.

Anyways, this was a JVR thread in the first place. My original point was that Kane isn't a Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin, maybe not even a Toews or an EJ. If we had to choose a draft to get shafted out of the No.1 pick, this one would be as good as many.
The only offense that Briere will likely cost us in the future is Lupul and Gagne. Giroux and JVR will likely be safe.

That being said if Giroux, Gagne, Richards, Carter, and Briere all manage to stay healthy for a full season there is absolutely no reason we can't have 5 players putting up, upwards of 70 points. Giroux's numbers might be the only stretch there because his sophomore season finish line is a little unpredictable. It tells you something though when the majority of Flyers fans vote him as the player who will put up the most points in 2009-10. They're clearly not all the most educated, but if it looks something like the following:

Gagne (40g-35a) - Richards (30g-55a) - Briere (30g-55a)
Hartnell (30g-25a) - Carter (45g-40a) - Giroux (25g-40a)

I have absolutely no problem with our top 6 even if Lupul and Knuble are no longer Flyers.

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05-14-2009, 05:39 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Richards was the leading point-getter.
You are correct, Kind Sir... 75 to 72... Briere had the goal lead and the postseason points lead, IIRC. My apologies, I should have double checked my memory before posting that.

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05-14-2009, 05:41 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
It's not like there are no $6.5M (or higher) wingers in the NHL... Briere was the team's leading scorer, both points and goals, in the one season that he was healthy here. Carter and Richards have come on, granted, but I can see him putting up major numbers off the wing if he stays in the lineup.

... That is not to suggest in the least that there is not a major Cap problem on the team... It is however to say that it doesn't fall solely on him, and he can still prove to be worth his contract -- in relation to other inflated salaried players in the NHL.


AND, you can't say that they can't pay Richards and Carters' large salaries while paying Briere... Things just have to be adjusted elsewhere.
Yes, like the lack of a legit third-line center that can win us some draws and play good defense...and the complete inability to bid on anything but an average starting goaltender (if that).

That's where things are getting adjusted...

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05-14-2009, 05:43 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
The only offense that Briere will likely cost us in the future is Lupul and Gagne. Giroux and JVR will likely be safe.

That being said if Giroux, Gagne, Richards, Carter, and Briere all manage to stay healthy for a full season there is absolutely no reason we can't have 5 players putting up, upwards of 70 points. Giroux's numbers might be the only stretch there because his sophomore season finish line is a little unpredictable. It tells you something though when the majority of Flyers fans vote him as the player who will put up the most points in 2009-10. They're clearly not all the most educated, but if it looks something like the following:

Gagne (40g-35a) - Richards (30g-55a) - Briere (30g-55a)
Hartnell (30g-25a) - Carter (45g-40a) - Giroux (25g-40a)


I have absolutely no problem with our top 6 even if Lupul and Knuble are no longer Flyers.
Where those educated guesses?

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