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Why Schenn isn't untouchable - Kane

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Old
05-12-2009, 07:16 AM
  #1
ULF_55
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Why Schenn isn't untouchable - Kane

Not really a news article, more opinion but written by Berger:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Howar...avares/3/21162

Quote:
The Leafs could draft a thousand facsimiles of Luke Schenn and not have to worry, for a moment, about professional demeanor and defensive mastery. But, a player in the Schenn mold will never break open an elimination playoff game the way Kane did at the United Center. And, that’s why the Maple Leafs desperately need a John Tavares… at the expense of any asset in the organization.

A performance such as the one Kane provided in dispatching the Canucks will only make it more difficult for Burke to pull off what many believe is the impossible… moving up in the draft order, and lucking out that Tavares is still available when the Leafs’ number is called. It may be nothing more than a euphoric pipe-dream on behalf of the aggressive Toronto GM, who doesn’t give a damn what anyone thinks of his intentions.

Comes right down to why I wasn't thrilled about drafting a defensive d-man with a lottery pick.

Adam Foote - lottery pick? Ouch!!!

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05-12-2009, 07:26 AM
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sgupca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not really a news article, more opinion but written by Berger:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Howar...avares/3/21162




Comes right down to why I wasn't thrilled about drafting a defensive d-man with a lottery pick.

Adam Foote - lottery pick? Ouch!!!
I would have perfered Filitov last year at 5, that being said i've been saying those comments for sometime, Schenn is going to be a very good and reliable stay-at-home defenseman; but if we have the chance to land a guy with Tavares' talent we do it. He is a game changing talent that can carry a team on his shoulders.

Now i disagree with Berger on one of his statements. We shouldnt try to get Tavares at all cost. He suggest a package of Kaberle + Schenn + 7th for the 2nd overall pick. IMO thats too much. I would either do Kaberle + Schenn or Kaberle + 7th.

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05-12-2009, 07:37 AM
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Berger likes to spin it anyway he can so that it reflects poorly on the Leafs. You could also say that defense wins championships and that a big physical defenceman can take over an entire series sometimes.

See Chris Pronger/Adam Foote/Scott Stevens...

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05-12-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not really a news article, more opinion but written by Berger:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Howar...avares/3/21162




Comes right down to why I wasn't thrilled about drafting a defensive d-man with a lottery pick.

Adam Foote - lottery pick? Ouch!!!
I'm with you. As much as I like Luke Schenn, I am still one of the few around here that thinks we should have chosen Filatov.

I still can't understand why people are opposed to adding a player that could potentially be one of the best players in the game? I am all for having good defensive help but not at the expense of a potential superstar.

This is Toronto though, I guess it's not that surprising.

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05-12-2009, 07:47 AM
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Transplanted Caper
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Joe Neiwendyk had a more productive and longer career than Wendel Clark. All those who think we never should have drafted Clark raise your hands. Yes, he may not be a game breaker offensively, but he's 19, we have no way of knowing the impact Schenn could have on this franchise with his play, and his intangibles. To compare stat totals is pretty asinine IMO.

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05-12-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Crazy View Post
Berger likes to spin it anyway he can so that it reflects poorly on the Leafs. You could also say that defense wins championships and that a big physical defenceman can take over an entire series sometimes.

See Chris Pronger/Adam Foote/Scott Stevens...
Schenn is definantly not a Pronger type, or a Stevens type. Schenn is more in the mould of a Foote or Regehr.

Adam Foote was an integral part of those Avs championship teams but something tells me the Avs would not have gotten as far as they did if it weren't for the likes of Sakic and Forsberg and a guy named Patrick Roy in net.

Schenn could be a vital piece in the future but he isn't the type of player you build your hold team around. Schenn will never be a gamebreaker in this league. Schenn will have a very good career but don't expect a Schenn-type to be the focal point of a team.

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05-12-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
Schenn is definantly not a Pronger type, or a Stevens type. Schenn is more in the mould of a Foote or Regehr.

Adam Foote was an integral part of those Avs championship teams but something tells me the Avs would not have gotten as far as they did if it weren't for the likes of Sakic and Forsberg and a guy named Patrick Roy in net.

Schenn could be a vital piece in the future but he isn't the type of player you build your hold team around. Schenn will never be a gamebreaker in this league. Schenn will have a very good career but don't expect a Schenn-type to be the focal point of a team.
I agree, and like most of my post i explain that I very much like Schenn and what he brings; but he isn't a game-breaking talent thats going to win us games. Sure he'll provide great leadership and protection for our goalie(s) but he won't bring to the table what Tavares can.

Like i've said a thousand times. Trade Schenn + Kaberle for Tavares

Trade Stajan + 7th for 5th = Draft B. Schenn

Then in the second round draft Ryan O'Reilly (replaces Stajan with more upside) + Braydon McNabb (Big stay at home D'man - and its where you should draft one of these guys...in the 2nd round)

Draft day In:

J. Tavares
B. Schenn
B. McNabb
R. O'Reilly

Out:

Kaberle
L. Schenn
Stajan

I call that progress!

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05-12-2009, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
Joe Neiwendyk had a more productive and longer career than Wendel Clark. All those who think we never should have drafted Clark raise your hands. Yes, he may not be a game breaker offensively, but he's 19, we have no way of knowing the impact Schenn could have on this franchise with his play, and his intangibles. To compare stat totals is pretty asinine IMO.
But maybe if you draft Joe Nieuwendyk the Leafs are better off. Maybe if the Leafs draft Nieuwendyk they win the Cup evenutally. Clark was a good player for the Leafs but it's that type admiration that sometimes leads to no success. Clark played very well, when he was healthy, but the Leafs never really got anywhere with him here. It wasn't until the Leafs acquired talent like Gilmour and Andreychuk that they actually made some noise in the playoffs. I love Wendal Clark but once again I don't think he was the type of talent to build around. Unfortunately for the Leafs they finished last one season to late. Lemieux went on to be one of the best players ever while Clark is a hero only here in Toronto but a mere after thought anywhere else.

If rumours are true (they aren't) and the Leafs can move up in this draft, do you pass up on a Mario Lemieux type just because you admire the Wendal Clark type? Don't your love or admiration of a player get in the way of improving your team. If that were the case the Leafs would have never acquired a franchise center for a player that had only a few years left and the time we let that "love" get in the way the Leafs threw away Kenny Jonsson and Roberto Luongo.

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05-12-2009, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
I agree, and like most of my post i explain that I very much like Schenn and what he brings; but he isn't a game-breaking talent thats going to win us games. Sure he'll provide great leadership and protection for our goalie(s) but he won't bring to the table what Tavares can.

Like i've said a thousand times. Trade Schenn + Kaberle for Tavares

Trade Stajan + 7th for 5th = Draft B. Schenn

Then in the second round draft Ryan O'Reilly (replaces Stajan with more upside) + Braydon McNabb (Big stay at home D'man - and its where you should draft one of these guys...in the 2nd round)

Draft day In:

J. Tavares
B. Schenn
B. McNabb
R. O'Reilly

Out:

Kaberle
L. Schenn
Stajan

I call that progress!
Why would the Kings want Stajan?

Sorry I just had to rain on your parade

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05-12-2009, 08:03 AM
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sgupca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
But maybe if you draft Joe Nieuwendyk the Leafs are better off. Maybe if the Leafs draft Nieuwendyk they win the Cup evenutally. Clark was a good player for the Leafs but it's that type admiration that sometimes leads to no success. Clark played very well, when he was healthy, but the Leafs never really got anywhere with him here. It wasn't until the Leafs acquired talent like Gilmour and Andreychuk that they actually made some noise in the playoffs. I love Wendal Clark but once again I don't think he was the type of talent to build around. Unfortunately for the Leafs they finished last one season to late. Lemieux went on to be one of the best players ever while Clark is a hero only here in Toronto but a mere after thought anywhere else.

If rumours are true (they aren't) and the Leafs can move up in this draft, do you pass up on a Mario Lemieux type just because you admire the Wendal Clark type? Don't your love or admiration of a player get in the way of improving your team. If that were the case the Leafs would have never acquired a franchise center for a player that had only a few years left and the time we let that "love" get in the way the Leafs threw away Kenny Jonsson and Roberto Luongo.

Thats very well explained,

But i will disagree. I think these rumors are very true, and I for one believe that a deal is already in place for the 2nd overall pick. I just think for it too happen the Islanders need to draft Hedman, and that wouldnt surprise me either!

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05-12-2009, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
Why would the Kings want Stajan?

Sorry I just had to rain on your parade
The Kings need help on the 3rd line. IMO thats the main reason they didn't make the playoffs.

Out-side of their top 6, they are very weak on the bottom 6. Stajan brings leadership and excellent 3rd line qualities.

He's a perfect fit in LA, but thats just my opinion.

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05-12-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not really a news article, more opinion but written by Berger:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Howar...avares/3/21162




Comes right down to why I wasn't thrilled about drafting a defensive d-man with a lottery pick.

Adam Foote - lottery pick? Ouch!!!
I've never heard this comparison before! This puts everything into perspective!

Absolutely groundbreaking!!!!!!!

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05-12-2009, 08:09 AM
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Schenn should not be even considered for a second in trade talk.

Why everyone has him pegged as a defensive d-man has me kind of befuddled tough in all honesty. What Schenn attained this year imo was most likely the low end of his skill level.

i'M sure Luke found all kinds of deficiencies in his game for the NHL level that he will be working hard on this summer. He's could possibly be a dominating defenseman in the very near future and i wouldn't like to be watching him do it elsewhere.

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05-12-2009, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Schenn should not be even considered for a second in trade talk.

Why everyone has him pegged as a defensive d-man has me kind of befuddled tough in all honesty. What Schenn attained this year imo was most likely the low end of his skill level.

i'M sure Luke found all kinds of deficiencies in his game for the NHL level that he will be working hard on this summer. He's could possibly be a dominating defenseman in the very near future and i wouldn't like to be watching him do it elsewhere.
Of course, he's only 19

But we are talking his ceiling potiential.

Tavares potiential is 10 times greater than Schenn.

Like AlMo said, would u take Mario Lemieux and his magic with the puck or Wendel Clark and his gritter play?

Any sane person trades Clark for Lemieux anyday.

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05-12-2009, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
The Kings need help on the 3rd line. IMO thats the main reason they didn't make the playoffs.

Out-side of their top 6, they are very weak on the bottom 6. Stajan brings leadership and excellent 3rd line qualities.

He's a perfect fit in LA, but thats just my opinion.
The Kings need wingers, top 6 wingers, not third liners.

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05-12-2009, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
The Kings need wingers, top 6 wingers, not third liners.
Top 6:

Brown, Kopitar, Stoll, Percell, Frolov, Calder

Other than Calder their top 6 is solid.

Kings bottom 6, and goaltending sucks.

Maybe they take Pony instead of Stajan? Pony replaces Calder in the top 6.

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05-12-2009, 08:17 AM
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that article is about 35% right.

we need a game breaker. but not at the expense of Schenn. no way, we will find another way, or just be patient.....like the Black Hawks were.

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05-12-2009, 08:17 AM
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I'd trade Schenn for Tavares in a heartbeat but I don't agree with the comparisons.

The gap between Wendel and Mario is much wider than that of Schenn and Tavares.

Schenn >> Clark and Mario >> Tavares

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05-12-2009, 08:19 AM
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Schenn > *

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05-12-2009, 08:33 AM
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Berger is an ass..... and here's why Schenn is BASICALLY untouchable. The leafs absolutely need a gamebreaker like Tavares, but thats in addition to needing at least 1 more top line winger (preferably left side) and problably 1 more high end defenceman after Schenn.

With those 3 needs in mind, we've got several assets to get them, but moving Schenn makes it 4 needs. We will likey fill one of those needs with the #7 overall pick; likely another one with Kaberle, and perhaps find a good trading partner with an underachieving player for a package revolving around Tlusty.

The problem with the Leafs is that they need 2 forwards and 2 defenceman to build around. So far, they've got 1 of the defenceman. Therefore, you really can't move any combination that involves more than 1 of Schenn, Kaberle, or the 7th overall to get a player we need.

We could afford to part with Schenn if it meant a top 3 draft pick coming back; the problem comes in when you want to start including guys like Kaberle or our 7th in the equation. Berger proposes sending all 3 to Tampa for Tavares (even though they only asked for Schenn & Kaberle); that leaves us in a position where we've got Tavares, but no blueline, and no assets to get a blueline or to get forwards to surround Tavares with.

Personally, I think there is a deal to be had if the Isles take Hedman (which they won't). Tampa's going to realize that the market for Tavares isn't going to be as hot as they think, adn the asking price of Schenn & Kaberle will problably get turned into Kaberle, Tlusty & a 2nd round pick. When the Isles take Tavares, if we can get a hold of the #5 pick; it'll cost us Tlusty in order to jump up and get Duchene.

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05-12-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
Why would the Kings want Stajan?

Sorry I just had to rain on your parade
And if we traded away L. Schenn, trading up for B.Schenn seems kind of odd... if we traded away Luke, I'd rather see them draft Evander Kane.

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05-12-2009, 08:48 AM
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The problem with the Leafs is that they need 2 forwards and 2 defenceman to build around. So far, they've got 1 of the defenceman. Therefore, you really can't move any combination that involves more than 1 of Schenn, Kaberle, or the 7th overall to get a player we need.

We could afford to part with Schenn if it meant a top 3 draft pick coming back; the problem comes in when you want to start including guys like Kaberle or our 7th in the equation. Berger proposes sending all 3 to Tampa for Tavares (even though they only asked for Schenn & Kaberle); that leaves us in a position where we've got Tavares, but no blueline, and no assets to get a blueline or to get forwards to surround Tavares with.

Personally, I think there is a deal to be had if the Isles take Hedman (which they won't). Tampa's going to realize that the market for Tavares isn't going to be as hot as they think, adn the asking price of Schenn & Kaberle will problably get turned into Kaberle, Tlusty & a 2nd round pick. When the Isles take Tavares, if we can get a hold of the #5 pick; it'll cost us Tlusty in order to jump up and get Duchene.
Not sure but how did you propose grabbing the #5 pick?

If we use last year as an example:

Is this your proposal? 7th. overall, 2nd. rounder, 3rd. rounder, Tlusty = Duchene?

One would hope it is either Schenn and Kaberle (+ 2nd. whatever) or 7th. overall and Kaberle (+ 2nd. whatever) otherwise it would be hoped Burke would just say the cost is too high.

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05-12-2009, 08:52 AM
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If Tavares was as good as Kane I don't think that there would be any doubt about who would be picked first, there was never any question about Patrick's skating and he has everything else.

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05-12-2009, 08:55 AM
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It seems Berger misses the point. True, Schenn will never break open the game like Kane did (after all, he isn't a forward relied upon for offense) however it is fully possible he can PREVENT a Kane from breaking a game open.

Howard need only be shown a guy like Esa Tikanen to see how defensive play can all but nullify "game breakers".

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05-12-2009, 09:00 AM
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So, with the 5th overall pick, we're supposed to expect a player of equal quality to 1st overall pick Patrick Kane?

What the hell is wrong with you people?


(and with all due respect to Nikita Filatov, he's no Patrick Kane either)

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